[Mabinogi-JP] Regeneration - Ninjutsu Update (Consolidated and Organized) - Page 5 | Foreign Mabinogi Content

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[Mabinogi-JP] Regeneration - Ninjutsu Update (Consolidated and Organized)

ironwoman wrote on 2014-07-17 14:15

Quote from Osu;1232531:
Anywho~ enough digression(and my apologies for it)

[Image: http://puu.sh/adTfS/d1d67b9493.png]

~?

Since you'd like to know, I'll say that the only useful reforge I have is elemental reforge. Elemental 6 on bow (HLB), and 5 on lance (Knight). Note that my lance is 9 piercing though.
In my case, I have around 270 more dex than strength at the moment thanks to culinary artist talent. No crash shot/magnum shot reforge bullshit, just elementals. In general, range proves to be the more efficient way for me since it actually takes shorter for me to kill targets as magnum provides higher dps for me, and windmill with bow or lance kills everything on crit anyway. I only use one set of gear (gamyu with bunch of other things), so damage enchants are not a factor. I could probably run just as easily with my thames set on, but then again, I still like using range more at the moment. So as for me, the fact that my dex is higher than str at a more significant margin still makes range relevant, and before the ninja patch, that would have been the case, especially if I get to have the bhafel combo. And yeah, realistically speaking, getting that bow is even harder to do on other servers, even if you had the money to make it. Kinda sad actually. But when bhafel combo came out, it was designed so that this set of weapon would basically just outdamge other things.

More onto the topic: At least they didn't make level-up bonus stupid like some talents give. Culinary artist, for example, is pretty much the definition of human puppet stat growth talent. But I guess culinary artist is just hero talent.

Quote from KingFintchz;1232566:
R.I.P Other races...
Long live the Giants!
Never finished carpentry (don't plan on doing it) this'll be a great way to make up for it.
In other words: I'm all for Giant Favoritism~

Pretty sure this is a grindy skillset.
Also, carpentry is pretty damn efficient for the stat it provides, I'd just finish it.
Osu wrote on 2014-07-17 17:13

Quote from ironwoman;1232769:
Since you'd like to know, I'll say that the only useful reforge I have is elemental reforge. Elemental 6 on bow (HLB), and 5 on lance (Knight). Note that my lance is 9 piercing though.
In my case, I have around 270 more dex than strength at the moment thanks to culinary artist talent. No crash shot/magnum shot reforge bullshit, just elementals. In general, range proves to be the more efficient way for me since it actually takes shorter for me to kill targets as magnum provides higher dps for me, and windmill with bow or lance kills everything on crit anyway. I only use one set of gear (gamyu with bunch of other things), so damage enchants are not a factor. I could probably run just as easily with my thames set on, but then again, I still like using range more at the moment. So as for me, the fact that my dex is higher than str at a more significant margin still makes range relevant, and before the ninja patch, that would have been the case, especially if I get to have the bhafel combo. And yeah, realistically speaking, getting that bow is even harder to do on other servers, even if you had the money to make it. Kinda sad actually. But when bhafel combo came out, it was designed so that this set of weapon would basically just outdamge other things.
Hm.. I guess with that much more dex the extra 11.1% really makes a difference huh? I still think the skillset overall is way more effort for.. basically same-level return, but I am considering bases without reforges when I say that so o3o I dunno~

More onto the topic: At least they didn't make level-up bonus stupid like some talents give. Culinary artist, for example, is pretty much the definition of human puppet stat growth talent. But I guess culinary artist is just hero talent.
Very true haha. Though it's not as overpowered now I suppose, since you have to pay for it and all.

[QUOTE=KingFintchz;1232566]R.I.P Other races...
Long live the Giants!
Never finished carpentry (don't plan on doing it) this'll be a great way to make up for it.
In other words: I'm all for Giant Favoritism~

Pretty sure this is a grindy skillset.
Also, carpentry is pretty damn efficient for the stat it provides, I'd just finish it.
^Quite recommended, unless you wanna have lower str than some humans :U[/QUOTE]
Getting back to the topic here.. this page> http://aaaaeeee.blog89.fc2.com suggests the Durable enchant is a prefix. Which one made the mistake here? Because Durable is an all around better option than Chivalrous and it doesn't make sense to me that they'd be same slot, with the better one being lower rank to boot..
That page also suggests the +0.25 to str and will on level up, which I see has still not been added.
ironwoman wrote on 2014-07-17 20:37

Quote from Osu;1232807:
Getting back to the topic here.. this page> http://aaaaeeee.blog89.fc2.com suggests the Durable enchant is a prefix. Which one made the mistake here? Because Durable is an all around better option than Chivalrous and it doesn't make sense to me that they'd be same slot, with the better one being lower rank to boot..
That page also suggests the +0.25 to str and will on level up, which I see has still not been added.

Yeah, I have enough stat difference to make a difference. This patch will probably change that though. Basically, I still think range is better in the end, but not by of margin as it really should be considering the effort, and after this patch, the classes would probably even out, with less return for range. It'd still be relevant and better by a much smaller margin that it won't really be important anymore.

As for enchants, I was about to say, I thought I heard Durable would be a prefix. If that is indeed the case for NA, I'm so replacing re-enchanting my Encore Champion armor. Question here though: should I replace champion? I have a good roll on it to begin with, and I don't think sacrificing the str bonus from the enchant is really worth it. Just wanna know what nation thinks.

For shurikens, I see that there isn't any good suffix. So the most try-hard set up would be conqueror crocodile, with more realistic set up being Rising crocodile, and demi lich crocodile for those that want that 1 extra max.
RegisAreus wrote on 2014-07-17 21:07

Iono if this been asked but how much str and wil does this skillset gives from skills and talent bonus?
Osu wrote on 2014-07-17 22:12

Quote from ironwoman;1232827:
Yeah, I have enough stat difference to make a difference. This patch will probably change that though. Basically, I still think range is better in the end, but not by of margin as it really should be considering the effort, and after this patch, the classes would probably even out, with less return for range. It'd still be relevant and better by a much smaller margin that it won't really be important anymore.

As for enchants, I was about to say, I thought I heard Durable would be a prefix. If that is indeed the case for NA, I'm so replacing re-enchanting my Encore Champion armor. Question here though: should I replace champion? I have a good roll on it to begin with, and I don't think sacrificing the str bonus from the enchant is really worth it. Just wanna know what nation thinks.

For shurikens, I see that there isn't any good suffix. So the most try-hard set up would be conqueror crocodile, with more realistic set up being Rising crocodile, and demi lich crocodile for those that want that 1 extra max.

I'd definitely do Durable Champion if I were you. xD I'm going with Durable Chivalrous if I can, but my raid options are limited, so what I had before that is Duelist Darkness~ I hope these enchants are on the simpler side of obtainment.. rather than lords with abysmal drop rate or more raid crap haha.
Rising Crocodile was what I had in mind also. xD
Looking forward to some rasenzan crits of 18k+ without reforges +w+

Quote from RegisAreus;1232838:
Iono if this been asked but how much str and wil does this skillset gives from skills and talent bonus?

174 str and HP, 89 will from skills- 58 str, 25 will from master talent-- Up to 70 str and 30 will if grandmaster(but it's inefficient compared to warrior or fighter grandmaster).
RegisAreus wrote on 2014-07-17 22:25

ah ,guess i'll keep my grandmaster archer
drezzt wrote on 2014-07-18 05:42

I guess I must be the only one around here that thinks that this update brings melee up to par with ranged...

And at the moment, the skillset looks like it can't really hold its own in a fight... looks really gimmicky, with decent cooldowns.
ironwoman wrote on 2014-07-18 12:41

Quote from drezzt;1232939:
I guess I must be the only one around here that thinks that this update brings melee up to par with ranged...

And at the moment, the skillset looks like it can't really hold its own in a fight... looks really gimmicky, with decent cooldowns.

Cap human str with the patch: 740~

Cap human dex: 806

Why would this not bring melee in par with ranged? There's only like 60-70 difference, and we all know the piercing from lance pretty much takes over at 20-30 damage difference.

Melee will still have lower DPS, but because of the increase in raw damage, it's definitely on par with range.
If you've been reading my posts, I've constantly being emphasizing how this will close the gap between melee and range.
drezzt wrote on 2014-07-18 12:51

Quote from ironwoman;1232974:
Cap human str with the patch: 740~

Cap human dex: 806

Why would this not bring melee in par with ranged? There's only like 60-70 difference, and we all know the piercing from lance pretty much takes over at 20-30 damage difference.

Melee will still have lower DPS, but because of the increase in raw damage, it's definitely on par with range.
If you've been reading my posts, I've constantly being emphasizing how this will close the gap between melee and range.

Sorry, I read your posts about closing the gap between str and dex, for some reason it didn't process as melee and range, since str applies to so many other skill sets. But you're right.

What do you think about the skillset itself? Powerful or no? Worth of being a main skill set? Or comparable to pre-revamp alchemy?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
ironwoman wrote on 2014-07-18 14:27

Quote from drezzt;1232977:
Sorry, I read your posts about closing the gap between str and dex, for some reason it didn't process as melee and range, since str applies to so many other skill sets. But you're right.

What do you think about the skillset itself? Powerful or no? Worth of being a main skill set? Or comparable to pre-revamp alchemy?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Powerful? I don't see it as particularly OP skillset. This skillset has two flaws. First, it's a skillset that utilizes str and will. Both stats got a huge buff in this patch, but total of str + will is still less than str + int or str + dex by a big margin. And it still doesn't have ridiculous damage formula like puppet does. In general, the damage is limited because of this. Another flaw lies in the fact that it lacks elemental reforge.

Worthy of being a main skillset? Definitely not.

Better than pre-revamp alchemy as I see it, but nowhere near the level where alchemy is at right now.
Osu wrote on 2014-07-18 15:21

Quote from ironwoman;1232985:
Powerful? I don't see it as particularly OP skillset. This skillset has two flaws. First, it's a skillset that utilizes str and will. Both stats got a huge buff in this patch, but total of str + will is still less than str + int or str + dex by a big margin. And it still doesn't have ridiculous damage formula like puppet does. In general, the damage is limited because of this. Another flaw lies in the fact that it lacks elemental reforge.

Worthy of being a main skillset? Definitely not.

Better than pre-revamp alchemy as I see it, but nowhere near the level where alchemy is at right now.

I honestly don't see why people seem to feel this way rofl.. I do view it as extremely strategic, but let's be honest.. The bonuses a shuriken gets are about the same as what you can do with a Dowra SE, the typical gun of choice, str is even between the two skillsets of ninja and gunner, and now will has basically been bumped up to a total rounding near 80% of what there is in int.. or at least is -much- closer, which justifies and evens out the every 5 str/int and every 4 str/will..
Both their "smash" moves have insane multipliers-- 800% vs. 430% with a 200% bonus for little effort* and also is mild AoE, their "windmill" moves are both 400%
Bullet slide and ground snare can both be played to distance oneself from certain enemies, though in different ways..
Ninja gets a meteor-tier attack, even if it may be more situational in its use compared to meteor itself.. whereas gunner gets a second mobbing move in bullet storm..
Gunner can close the distance on enemies with grapple shot, ninja can drop an enemy's aggro to even out perse(though yeah this one's cooldown is just too long to compare those two..)
I dunno, people like to say gunner is "OP," so with all that in mind why can't you feel the same about ninja? rofl~
Also note the lack of elementals imply the possibility of huge boosts in attack bonus reforges like guns got~~ I wouldn't doubt it happening again.
(And this is unfortunate timing ironwoman, I really don't mean to keep arguing with you specifically xD I was just ready to start typing stuff when I saw something as asinine as pre-revamp alchemy.. I mean I'm gonna crit 18k with full charge rasenzan myself, so.. yeah, that's not even a worth while question to me)

All this aside, I do have a question now, since I really haven't seen this in proper use.. is r1 ground snare thrown at huge enemies gonna be like a free 1000% damage or do they only blow up one after another or something like that?
Jake wrote on 2014-07-18 15:28

Quote from Osu;1232994:
I honestly don't see why people seem to feel this way rofl.. I do view it as extremely strategic, but let's be honest.. The bonuses a shuriken gets are about the same as what you can do with a Dowra SE, the typical gun of choice, str is even between the two skillsets of ninja and gunner, and now will has basically been bumped up to a total rounding near 80% of what there is in int.. or at least is -much- closer, which justifies and evens out the every 5 str/int and every 4 str/will..
Both their "smash" moves have insane multipliers-- 800% vs. 430% with a 200% bonus for little effort* and also is mild AoE, their "windmill" moves are both 400%
Bullet slide and ground snare can both be played to distance oneself from certain enemies, though in different ways..
Ninja gets a meteor-tier attack, even if it may be more situational in its use compared to meteor itself.. whereas gunner gets a second mobbing move in bullet storm..
Gunner can close the distance on enemies with grapple shot, ninja can drop an enemy's aggro to even out perse(though yeah this one's cooldown is just too long to compare those two..)
I dunno, people like to say gunner is "OP," so with all that in mind why can't you feel the same about ninja? rofl~
Also note the lack of elementals imply the possibility of huge boosts in attack bonus reforges like guns got~~ I wouldn't doubt it happening again.
(And this is unfortunate timing ironwoman, I really don't mean to keep arguing with you specifically xD I was just ready to start typing stuff when I saw something as asinine as pre-revamp alchemy.. I mean I'm gonna crit 18k with full charge rasenzan myself, so.. yeah, that's not even a worth while question to me)

All this aside, I do have a question now, since I really haven't seen this in proper use.. is r1 ground snare thrown at huge enemies gonna be like a free 1000% damage or do they only blow up one after another or something like that?

My question is why do you need it to be OP? I'm going into this skillset knowing well that besides infinite shadow binding, it won't be able to come anywhere even remotely close to what my archery does. A skillset doesn't really have to be OP to be worth using..
Osu wrote on 2014-07-18 15:36

Quote from Jake;1232996:
My question is why do you need it to be OP? I'm going into this skillset knowing well that besides infinite shadow binding, it won't be able to come anywhere even remotely close to what my archery does. A skillset doesn't really have to be OP to be worth using..

Oh I'm all with ya. I love it most for its strategy end, I'm just saying people really aren't putting up good arguments calling it weak, haha~
Though I am slightly built for it as well.. 85 str and (I think the number was)103 will off from both caps, so.. like any skillset, it just takes work to be good at it, yeah?
The fact also remains.. a lot of skillsets wouldn't even stack up without reforges or say, combo cards.. I dunno why they don't keep all bonuses relevant to each skillset but.. ehh -w- what can ya do~
drezzt wrote on 2014-07-18 17:05

Quote from Osu;1232999:
Oh I'm all with ya. I love it most for its strategy end, I'm just saying people really aren't putting up good arguments calling it weak, haha~
Though I am slightly built for it as well.. 85 str and (I think the number was)103 will off from both caps, so.. like any skillset, it just takes work to be good at it, yeah?
The fact also remains.. a lot of skillsets wouldn't even stack up without reforges or say, combo cards.. I dunno why they don't keep all bonuses relevant to each skillset but.. ehh -w- what can ya do~

Oh, I don't think I won't be using it, I plan on using it alongside another one as my main skillsets, I just wanted to know what it was lacking in to best supplement it. I don't think gunner is OP, i think it's just fine. In fact, I don't think any of the skillsets are particularly op right now, with the exception of alchemy, but it deserves to be strong because of how long it takes to get strong and how long they've been left weak and untouched and somewhat irrelevant.

What I'm saying is that the cooldowns seem to restrict its usage a ton, with cooldowns longer than windmill or shooting rush or skills from many other sets. One of these skills even has a, what, 20 minute cooldown? Shadow assault, 50 second cooldown. Kunai rush, 8 seconds, smoke screen, 23 secs. This skillset has so many cooldowns, I doubt its a skillset that could be used just by itself. And for those cooldowns, the damage, amount of crowd control, and the amount of buffing/debuffing seems slightly unjustified. But, I don't know, it may turn out differently when the patch hits and I actually feel the talent.

I was originally gonna post here a list of why gunner seems to be op, but then I thought about it, and I can't remember the time I saw someone say gunner is OP. On Ruari, I rarely ever see gunners anymore. Puppets, magic, bard, alchemy, lance, fighter. I see all of those all the time. I rarely ever see a gunner. I know of one gunner off the top of my head; everyone else seems to have chosen a different skillset to main.

Only thing I see here that's referred to as OP is puppets, and that is justified, as it is a very strong skillset.

And of course a skillset doesn't have to OP to be usable. However, as someone who has not yet reached end-game in any skill set, I would like to be able to clear content before I invest in a skill set that will be of minimal use to me. For me, using another skillset because its fun would provide much less fun than being able to actually clear end-game content with any other skillset.
ironwoman wrote on 2014-07-18 17:39

Quote from Osu;1232994:
I honestly don't see why people seem to feel this way rofl.. I do view it as extremely strategic, but let's be honest.. The bonuses a shuriken gets are about the same as what you can do with a Dowra SE, the typical gun of choice, str is even between the two skillsets of ninja and gunner, and now will has basically been bumped up to a total rounding near 80% of what there is in int.. or at least is -much- closer, which justifies and evens out the every 5 str/int and every 4 str/will..
Both their "smash" moves have insane multipliers-- 800% vs. 430% with a 200% bonus for little effort* and also is mild AoE, their "windmill" moves are both 400%
Bullet slide and ground snare can both be played to distance oneself from certain enemies, though in different ways..
Ninja gets a meteor-tier attack, even if it may be more situational in its use compared to meteor itself.. whereas gunner gets a second mobbing move in bullet storm..
Gunner can close the distance on enemies with grapple shot, ninja can drop an enemy's aggro to even out perse(though yeah this one's cooldown is just too long to compare those two..)
I dunno, people like to say gunner is "OP," so with all that in mind why can't you feel the same about ninja? rofl~
Also note the lack of elementals imply the possibility of huge boosts in attack bonus reforges like guns got~~ I wouldn't doubt it happening again.
(And this is unfortunate timing ironwoman, I really don't mean to keep arguing with you specifically xD I was just ready to start typing stuff when I saw something as asinine as pre-revamp alchemy.. I mean I'm gonna crit 18k with full charge rasenzan myself, so.. yeah, that's not even a worth while question to me)

All this aside, I do have a question now, since I really haven't seen this in proper use.. is r1 ground snare thrown at huge enemies gonna be like a free 1000% damage or do they only blow up one after another or something like that?

I didn't say it was bad, I just think it won't be a thing that would replace main classes at all. Think of it this way: is fighter strong? It can be. Is it really the best main class? No. Same thing with ninja.
Let's take it step by step. I'm at a position where I'm closer to str cap than you are, and further from will, for about the right amount, so my rasenzan would do about the same damage. I mean, sure I can use it in missions, but why would I use it when my range and lance would hit higher and clear faster anyway? Even without higher elemental reforge, the case would still hold true.
If the person using the skillset is one of those people that have good enough enchants but no good reforge (even less than what I use), then I could see this skillset being useful. But against fully-reforged other classes? I'd say it'd lose out, just like how puppet starts to fall off in reforges. The fact that these won't have elemental reforges puts their damage potential behind, just like how dual guns' damage reforge is still inferior to mid-elemental reforge. The elemental enchants also start shadowing over the skillsets' high multiplier, as most elemental-reforged weapons will still show higher damage on the character screen, and elemental modifiers would make the skill multiplier to be about the same as ninja skills (ex: elemental 6 smash = ~900%, elemental 6 windmill = ~370~90%). It's kinda like how we see skills like magnum do more than flash launcher, even though magnum has way less multiplier. It is true that it'd have about 80% of the stats str + int has to provide, but that 20% is still a big damage chunked, significant enough to make noticeable damage differences.

In that sense, by my definition of "main class", which would indicate what my strongest classes are, this class will not be one of them, even at end game (or rather, especially end-game). I also mentioned that it's much better than the pre-vamp alchemy. I didn't say the class was shit, I just don't think it's that great of a class. It's a decent class I guess. Hence why I said it's not worth being main class, it will never be that class where you start seeing ridiculous numbers compared to other classes. I'd consider using this class as a secondary, but never as the main.

On the other hand, this could also work as your "clean up class", similar to how gunner is used for clean up in many cases. For me though, I still probably wouldn't bother, crash shot or lance/bow windmill still does the job.

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