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Zekkii wrote on 2014-07-31 08:14
Recently one of my old friends has returned to Mabinogi after a lengthy hiatus and was shocked at the abundance of changes. As of late, and not just this summer, Mabinogi has really strayed from its roots or original gameplay. He asked me to talk about some of the changes and how I feel about them, although this isn't exactly what he meant I'm going to do that. The first thing I would like to talk about is all of the new and old Anime crossovers in Mabinogi. Second is the genesis system update as well as some of the newer skillsets around or after alchemist. Finally I'll address content as well as events to wrap it up.
Anime Culture and Realism
When I'd first joined Mabinogi, I never really thought of it as an 'anime'. While it's clear that the characters and environment have a sort of cell-shaded appearance that's reminiscent of a lot of asian animation and most of the NPCs have an 'anime' drawn portrait, I never really felt like Mabinogi was trying to be an anime.
This is difficult to explain, but when I think about early armors and clothing along with dungeons and combat styles I would relate Mabinogi more to a serious and realistic anime such as Monster or Death Note rather than something more extravagant such as Naruto. Every skill was firmly rooted in the realm of possibility; windmill was one of the more extravagant skills, and although bolts were magic they all had their own elaborate sci-fi explanations onto how they function and different elements associated with them.
Now if we fast-forward to the current Mabinogi we are driving around in scooters, wearing anime/modern clothes, dancing gangnam, using lightsabres or leeks to kill things. Ironically guns have one of the more detailed explanations as to how they function, which is great. However I still don't really think guns should have been put into Mabi, but it certainly softened the blow. We're given very little to nothing for scooters, ninja, vocaloid, light sabres, and other things. I think the games immersion has suffered, and would benefit from more realism and less anime culture or pop culture. On the flip side, this is very much fan-based as a lot of players truly wanted these changes.
Genesis Update and New Non-Playable Content
One of the major changes to the game was genesis, but also Area of Effect Summon Stun pets (AOE pets/summon pets for short; pets that use a large AOE stun upon being summoned), reforges (new cash shop equipment enhancements), and skills. The underlying similarities here are the combat system, or more directly the simplification and streamlining of it. Besides mobs being ferociously underhealthed due to significant player powercreep, there's a lot else that's changed.
In the early generations Mabinogi was a carefully balanced and timed stream of skills related to quick thinking and most important timing and observation for the RPS system. Smash was your most powerful skill but using it took time and it didn't take value away from less damaging attacks such as normal ones. AOE skills had function but given that taking on several mobs at once took a lot of strategy and timing, it was used more sparingly even given multiple mobs. When Alchemy skills were released, we got a few skills with generous AOE stun effects such as shock and raincasting. These two skills generally stunned rooms of mobs for 30 seconds to 1 minute after reasonably short preparation time (raincasting is aggro prevention), so it is fair to say that RPS suffered a loss but it wasn't too big as most users didn't have these skills.
Genesis is the name of the update in which almost all skills were given a cooldown and instant cast as opposed to a load time. With genesis I feel the RPS system died, but perhaps that is more to blame on new skills and AOE pets used to circumvent RPS. Fighter skills can initiate a chain that spans several tenfold your maximum damage with just one finger, all the skills can be loaded and excecuted instantly, and it's still considered to be one of the, if not the weakest skillset ingame. Guns, puppets, and ninja gameplay skills can usually be used regardless of what the enemy is doing. When genesis was first proposed players were outraged at the thought of instant smashes every 6 seconds, but on release smash's cooldown was reduced to 3 seconds which is shorter than its animation. Most other skills were given the same treatment, and although it certainly made the gameplay a lot faster, it made it far easier and one-sided.
For times when skills may not easily circumvent the RPS system despite instant loads, there are AOE pets and other control methods to prevent mob retaliation. The main benefits of the new cash shop reforge upgrades are range/skill radius (E.G. crash shot had an explosion radius of 700 but can be increased to 1000 with reforges to hit an entire room) and of course damage, which results in virtually no retaliation because all of the mobs can be killed in one shot or before getting out of stunlock. So on this end I feel players are well deserving of a huge nerf to revive the finer points of combat. As much as it would bother players, I really do believe it would make the game far more enjoyable or that the game has become less enjoyable because of these changes. Irregardless, the game has changed and it isn't likely to change back.
Recent Content and Events
In terms of content I'll be referring to Generations 13 forward, Erinn Martial Arts Competition, Forest Purification, Lord Missions, and Peaca Abyss. This section gets a little rough, maybe one-sided on my part.
To start off, the generation quests have almost all become solo. This was a horrible decision, I understand giving players the ability to solo things but removing the ability to take your friends to a boss battle or help you with a tough quest was against the spirit of earlier generations. Some of the best moments I had were in G3, G8, and G9 finals. The new saga quests (G18~ish) are repeatable which was a good idea, but giving them daily AP wasn't; players feel obligated to do these every day but rushing through the same generation quest every day isn't enjoyable.
Next there's the list of content which was released and instantly obsolete as well as the list of content which has been obsoleted: Dungeons + Bandit Hunting were obsoleted over time, Abyss Dungeons + Forest Purification + Lord Missions + Other things were all obsolete or very pointless on release. For the most part the meta and process to get to meta involves monotonously spamming NPC/Martial Arts Tournament for exp and whatever difficulty daily shadow mission for daily AP coupons. The rewarding system could use some work. The underlining change here is that a lot of people repeatedly runs the same Theatre Mission (one-room instance with a few mobs spawned into it), kills the mobs that spawn in a few seconds, and repeat it because nothing even comes close to giving the same amount of exp.
Finally there is events, the worst part. Events are now always poorly planned full of glitches and exploits, always either extremely over-rewarding or under-rewarding and the event budget alongside the the skillset budget seems to eat up any money that could have been used for respectable content. There are very very few events that have been released in the last year that haven't been abusable by simply using alternate characters to stack rewards. It has become the norm for players to relentlessly abuse events or glitches for personal gain, often even bragging about it on the forums. Similarly players will bot skills and step over their own grandma to get a point of their favourite stat. Of course not everyone is like this, but far too many for my taste.
Conclusion/Summary
Overall Mabinogi really has changed, and it's clear that I don't care for it. In general it's become a lot more casual-oriented because of the immersion breaking crossovers/items, new skillsets, and ease of play. One thing I didn't mention is that players all have free inventory plus (allows you to use bags and shops for free) and free weekly rebirthing ability, which is just good in general.
If anyone would like to add their opinions or own thoughts about how Mabinogi has changed, it would be appreciated. I realize this post is extremely lengthy, but I felt it was required to the subject justice and really did try to limit the words. If anyone read the whole thing, I commend you.
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DennouNeko wrote on 2014-07-31 09:29
Quote from Zekkii;1236150:
A bit long post
To start, I agree with what you wrote for the most part. Seems like there's a bit more focus on the paid content (reforges, AoE pets, clothes and other stuff from gachapons, etc.) than actual story. So yeah, everyone can prepare their figurine and put it on display at Dunbarton's gate...
As someone who doesn't know the old fight system, I don't mind the current one. From the skills you mentioned, seems like the ones changed with genesis work really smooth and give equal, or nearly equal chances to people with quite big delays (like loading windmill while the animation of regular attack finishes and executing it right after). It still requires a bit of planning and has some kind of flow to it.
Skills like gunslinger seem to have troubles with keeping that kind of flow (there is slight delay even for regular shot, more noticeable for slower connections) and that caused me to have troubles with finishing even the basic training.
Guns alone have their place, just like alchemy and mages do. Guns seem to be an attempt of an engineer to give non-magical people the ability to use mana for fighting, similar to alchemy. Ninja and their skill can also be an effect of someone developing proper fighting techniques.
As for motorbikes and such... Yeah, it seems to be too much of a technological jump and they look out of place. At least a flying leek could be explained by magic used on inanimate object, like in case of broom.
I wouldn't really mind if game wasn't forcing team play at few points... Partially because most people on friends list are either offline or busy most of the time, partially because I've met enough trolls (not only in Mabinogi) to give up on collecting random parties.
On the other hand, there were times where I wouldn't mind a help during few episodes of Saga, or just to take someone so it wasn't this monotonous...
Guess that's all from me for now. Will think about it a bit more and maybe add something later.
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k1nsoo wrote on 2014-07-31 09:49
Since when did Mabinogi became a free-style, fantasy life game owo
I just want campfires and alby arena back pls, I dont care about stupid SAO collaborations or Mikuchan dancing everywhere on dunby
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ironwoman wrote on 2014-07-31 11:47
I was never into anime or anything Japanese, and to be honest, I don't like the anime thing either.
Quote from DennouNeko;1236157:
As someone who doesn't know the old fight system, I don't mind the current one. From the skills you mentioned, seems like the ones changed with genesis work really smooth and give equal, or nearly equal chances to people with quite big delays (like loading windmill while the animation of regular attack finishes and executing it right after). It still requires a bit of planning and has some kind of flow to it.
Skills like gunslinger seem to have troubles with keeping that kind of flow (there is slight delay even for regular shot, more noticeable for slower connections) and that caused me to have troubles with finishing even the basic training.
Combat system's fine, I'd actually say it's been upped.
The PvP system though? Sucks major dick. It's even more connection dependent now, if you have shitty connection, you probably won't even be able to assault slash. PvP just became stupid with Genesis, along with people who PvP.
Quote from k1nsoo;1236162:
Since when did Mabinogi became a free-style, fantasy life game owo
I just want campfires and alby arena back pls, I dont care about stupid SAO collaborations or Mikuchan dancing everywhere on dunby
It was already pay 2 win since the Iria chapters, tbh. It just became more apparent as reforges got released.
Yeah, I pretty much facepalmed when Miku shit came out... all those otakus instantly getting onto their paypal to pay for those stupid hair... Oh God.
I wish there was a way in English to explain this... it's kind of 병맛, or at least so I thought.
I remember seeing a person who was literally finishing every phrase with "Nyaa~" added onto their words. It was so cringeworthy.
Even the Koreans became more otakuish. I do not approve.
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Romanji wrote on 2014-07-31 12:20
Personally I support the changes that have befallen the game up to now.
The combat, the fashion, the content, the skills, the areas and the NPCS.
Only things I would change would be fixing fighter's skill-locks and chain breaking, gunner's aim glitches, remove smash and puppeteer enemy invincibility frames.
As for the genesis combat change I can actually participate in combat and it doesn't rely entirely on "who can combo lock the other first." I live in Massachusetts and can compete with those in California with our speed in combat.
As for the pay2win, as long as it keeps the game afloat and people sell reforges back into the community I can't complain, I just don't like watching people who adorn themselves with every self-augmentation reforge they can get their hands on and brag about their damage or how much they spent on reforges and call it "skill" when it's not, it's preparation and gear.
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Aubog007 wrote on 2014-07-31 12:22
games have become more casual and less socially demanding. Hence the changes have shifted towards this due to current gaming culture.
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DennouNeko wrote on 2014-07-31 12:25
Quote from ironwoman;1236174:
Combat system's fine, I'd actually say it's been upped.
The PvP system though? Sucks major dick. It's even more connection dependent now, if you have shitty connection, you probably won't even be able to assault slash. PvP just became stupid with Genesis, along with people who PvP.
The main reasons why I don't PvP ;p
The only real fight I had so far was a completely random fight of bear (me, transformed) against someone who had a "who slew a bear at the age of 10" title in Tir Chonail. It felt like we both had similar delays and both of use were using only the most basic close combat skills (I even managed to win - revenge of the bears :p). We talked for a moment later, and the fight was fun for both of us.
A bit later I had a kind of test fight with a friend who wanted to check few gunslinger skills and had a lot better connection than me. Being interrupted all the time by all the hits that even don't do much damage is a bit annoying, especially when delays add to reaction time and you can't even get close. Since it was just to test skills and it was clear who'd win, we agreed to cancel the fight. Sometimes I kind of wonder how it would look if we redid it, now that I started using magic a lot more and have 2 of the intermediate spells...
As for... not very smart players just baiting other for PvP, seen enough of them to not get caught into it.
So yeah, I've witnessed firsthand what you're talking about.
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Rukuna wrote on 2014-07-31 12:56
Quote from Zekkii;1236150:
stuff
TL;DR
Anime Simulator 2014
Hide your Waifus, Hide your pocky
It all changed when the weeaboo nation attacked
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Cyrene wrote on 2014-07-31 16:18
I do agree about the genesis change. The old combat required more thought and I felt it was far more interesting. You never really were able to spam skills. Also I miss how more weapons were viable. You could litterally go to the blacksmith and purchase any sword or bow and you would be fine. I really don't know how to explain it. Mabi had this perfect balance though back then in my opinion.
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Osu wrote on 2014-07-31 17:27
Quote from ironwoman;1236174:
It was already pay 2 win since the Iria chapters, tbh. It just became more apparent as reforges got released.
Let's not forget the game started out with rebirthing as a paid thing, indefinitely. xD
Also you and I seem to have the exact same views of PvP. *slaps five*
Quote from Romanji;1236176:
As for the pay2win, as long as it keeps the game afloat and people sell reforges back into the community I can't complain, I just don't like watching people who adorn themselves with every self-augmentation reforge they can get their hands on and brag about their damage or how much they spent on reforges and call it "skill" when it's not, it's preparation and gear.
Amen.
Quote from Aubog007;1236177:
games have become more casual and less socially demanding. Hence the changes have shifted towards this due to current gaming culture.
This is exactly what it is. If most of us joined the game when we were kids(I myself was already an adult), we don't have the damn time anymore to sit around and fight shit for hours as opposed to what we do now. Though we could afford to spice it up in some way, no doubt.
To add onto the subject.. were beam sabers not explained as being conveyed through some means of alchemy? And I agree that guns have less place, but the fact that they gave them a decent explanation undoubtedly helps. I hate all scooters rofl.
I don't like most of the modern-looking clothes either, but.. that's only to the point where it looks like something we'd wear today. If it's not exactly old Celtic but still very fantasy-esque, I don't mind one bit.
Genesis did make things easier but I'm sure everyone would be pissed off if mobs were loading smash and etc. as quickly as we do, and canceling as fast as well. Thinking about bears and etc. that would probably completely cripple most people new to the game.
One thing to think about as well is Genesis was a very logical update. Does it really take you preparation time to decide you're gonna smash a face in? And is it a little physically exerting to the point you need a small break? Even if the break is practically nonexistent.. I still think you could smash one face in then move to another.
Now as for personal things to talk about..
I've seen it a few times here and there, but the "weeaboo" comments are honestly not some that belong in a community where you're supposed to be friendly toward your fellow gamer.
Games in general are an escape from reality(and to stay on subject with this part, I think the "anime life" of current strengthens that point), and the last thing a person needs when they're trying to enjoy something is to be pestered with comments about them doing what they enjoy. No one is in any position to judge another based off what they like, nor do they know the reasoning they feel a need to act a certain way or etc. Get off the high horse.
(I will leave that others could have reasons for judging people who like anime, but I will also throw in that those most likely come from your own experiences and are completely biased)
Quote from Zekkii;1236150:
If anyone read the whole thing, I commend you.
The internet makes me sad, considering you felt the need to say this..
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EndlessDreams wrote on 2014-07-31 17:43
There are quite a few reason why Mabinogi is the way it is now.
1) Popular Modern MMORPGS have many common features, that many people just take for granted now. Mabinogi is an old MMORPG, and that is why it needs updates to become closer to the popular modern MMORPG. 8 dollars per week for maximum progress is just way too much.
2) Power creep due to updates. Unlike many modern MMORPGs where power is dependent on gear, and that gear scales upward, Mabinogi is a game where power scales based on skill levels. There isn't much point in releasing skills that a inferior to previous skills in every way. So, they always have to release skills that are either better or different (or both)
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EndlessDreams wrote on 2014-07-31 17:43
There are quite a few reason why Mabinogi is the way it is now.
1) Popular Modern MMORPGS have many common features, that many people just take for granted now. Mabinogi is an old MMORPG, and that is why it needs updates to become closer to the popular modern MMORPG. 8 dollars per week for maximum progress is just way too much.
2) Power creep due to updates. Unlike many modern MMORPGs where power is dependent on gear, and that gear scales upward, Mabinogi is a game where power scales based on skill levels. There isn't much point in releasing skills that a inferior to previous skills in every way. So, they always have to release skills that are either better or different (or both)
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drezzt wrote on 2014-07-31 18:18
I've been around practically since the start of the game, and I remember the days back then. I was a little kid back when I started playing. I was intrdouced to it in my fifth grade, when I was playing runescape and a friend asked "Hey, wanna give mabinogi a try?" I made an account, but I never really got into it.
Two years later, I got my first laptop. Up until that point, the only game i ever really played was maplestory. i felt an urge to try something else. That's when I remembered Mabinogi. So I downloaded, and picked it up again.
I remember being on the verge of quitting again some period into the game. It was a hard game to learn. It was hard for me, who had no friends to play with, to try and start up with people who were doing Ciar over and over again while I was hardly doing any damage. I remember egos and champion being available only for people who paid for service. I remember seeing these people, who had spent money to get egos and transformations, and I remember thinking to myself, "I'll never get there." I was on the verge of quitting.
One day I was killing bears near Dugald logging camp. And then I met this guy. I saw him one shot a bear, and I thought to myself, I want to be able to do that. I started talking to him, and he was my first friend in the game. After a while, he revealed to me that only his in-game character was male, and he was actually female in real life (talk about a trap). She invited me to her guild, and I gladly accepted the invitation.
Looking back on those days, when I did my quests with my first guild, I have a sense of nostalgia, but I can't say I miss those days. Back then, the combat really felt slow to me. Of course, it was tactical, but it was very slow. Fights were almost always 1 v 1, and you had to take out mobs one at a time. Back then, connection speed was also a very important factor, and pvp also wasn't very fair. If you blocked, and your connection didn't allow you to load smash fast enough, you couldn't compare to people who had good enough connections for that. I remember that I rarely could pull off a bolt smash back then.
I am, and always have been, a big supporter if the genesis update. It gives the combat a faster feeling, and I feel like the genesis update made combat more realistic. I can hardly imagine combat to be something slow; it can be tactical, but it without a doubt fast and chaotic. I'm also less bored with the combat system of the genesis update; I feel like I can always be doing something instead of loading defense and waiting for the other monster to attack because I can't load a skill in time if I cancel defense.
However, I will admit that the combat is much less skill dependent since the release of heavy AOE skillsets and pets. I've never believed that any sort of AOE skillset is skill dependent; all i see when i see gunners and puppeteers fight is people who pull out the weapons, use the aoe, and find some way to stall until the cooldowns are up again, whether it be through lullaby, cloud pet, stun pets, or simply running around and playing dead. Whenever I watch people "solo" missions, these people are either one-shotting everything in the room or stalling. I honestly never liked the idea of puppets. How are puppets explained in the mabinogi universe? How are they even viable for combat? However, I can't deny the usefulness of the puppets.
I think over the years, mabinogi has generally changed for the better. Sure, reforges are crazy, but people have to realize that reforges are meant to be end-game stuff. Typically, the order of producing a weapon or piece of equipment goes Enchant -->upgrade --> special upgrade --> reforge. I wouldn't be proud of my shieldless charge or crisis range reforges if i didn't have the damage to back it up. Of course, elementals are pretty game-breaking, but nexon's gotta make money somehow.
All in all, I like the changes to mabinogi. I'll keep playing; they've got me hooked for now. I'm really interested in the upcoming updates, and I find myself constantly striving to get stronger, to find the day when I can pay forward all the help that's been given to me in this game.
If you've reached this far, thanks for reading. It's a really long post LOL
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Osu wrote on 2014-07-31 21:01
Quote from drezzt;1236231:
If you've reached this far, thanks for reading. It's a really long post LOL
Seriously twice now in two pages. Fuck the internet. xD
Your post was a very good and nostalgic read for me though, gonna rep.
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Drizzit wrote on 2014-08-01 01:32
A lot of it may be nostalgia, but Mabinogi certainly does lack the charm that it used to have. I feel that the fantasy life I fell in love with has become rabidly commercialized, although I do welcome the vast amount of content that is available compared to the just running Alby and Ciar all day. I don't car eif content is obsolete, as long as I can find a friend to run something with me, I'll just go along and do it. I don't care about maxing my AP Gains or getting epic damage. I have a love/hate relationship with the new combat system. On the one hand, I do miss the careful skill timing and teamwork that was once required to complete a dungeon, on the other hand; most of it went out the window 80% of the time thanks to lag, and I do get a thrill from Smash>assault>WM>rinse>repeat until everything dies.