Mabinogi Renovations Video

• Juno wrote on 2015-01-12 04:16
  I'm totally ok with the Final Hit buff. I feel like I might see someone use it outside of duels, now.
• Lolguy12 wrote on 2015-01-14 01:30

  Quote from Juno;1260862:

  I'm totally ok with the Final Hit buff. I feel like I might see someone use it outside of duels, now.

  
  
  like this for example?
  [video=youtube;fSvQoqkdytQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSvQoqkdytQ[/video]
  
  ps: you can see their usage of final hit in the beginning and end of the shadow mission in case you don't want to watch the whole video everything else in between is usage of charge a few rage impact and surprisingly no usage of bash at all.
• Juno wrote on 2015-01-14 03:32
  Yeah, that looks about right. Melee having some sort of ability to deal with crowds other than running in and windmilling.
• Slayerj wrote on 2015-01-14 05:11

  Quote from Juno;1261030:

  Yeah, that looks about right. Melee having some sort of ability to deal with crowds other than running in and windmilling.

  
  
  That's all over half of NA will still do anyway......
• Kaeporo wrote on 2015-01-14 07:37
  The Final Hit buff is garbage, specifically referring to the 400% damage boost. The biggest issue with the skill right now is the durability consumption.
  
  There's a way to improve skills without drastically increasing power creep or overcentralizing content. Instead of making Final Hit 400% per hit (without factoring in the reforges that can enable near-permanent Final Hit) you instead nerf Lance Piercing down to -3~4% protection per level and buff Final Hit damage to +50% per hit. If the skill still doesn't see much usage, you up it to 100% per hit. Metrics are invaluable assets when balancing a game.
  
  What would you guys consider to be unfair? 1000% damage per hit? 450% damage per hit? If you don't care about whether or not it's overpowered, you can fuck right off with your wishy-washy opinion.
• Juno wrote on 2015-01-14 08:31

  Quote from Kaeporo;1261061:

  The Final Hit buff is garbage, specifically referring to the 400% damage boost. The biggest issue with the skill right now is the durability consumption.
  
  There's a way to improve skills without drastically increasing power creep or overcentralizing content. Instead of making Final Hit 400% per hit (without factoring in the reforges that can enable near-permanent Final Hit) you instead nerf Lance Piercing down to -3~4% protection per level and buff Final Hit damage to +50% per hit. If the skill still doesn't see much usage, you up it to 100% per hit. Metrics are invaluable assets when balancing a game.
  
  What would you guys consider to be unfair? 1000% damage per hit? 450% damage per hit? If you don't care about whether or not it's overpowered, you can fuck right off with your wishy-washy opinion.

  
  
  You seem passionate about something, but I can't quite tell what it is.
  
  You say the buff is garbage, specifically the damage boost, then cite something totally unrelated to damage. Does that mean that the damage is fine and the durability use is the real problem? Or perhaps the damage boost was a good idea but durability is still an issue that needs to be addressed. Also, wasn't there talk of removing durability use for the duration of Final Hit?
  
  You talk of power creep, but we're comparing Final Hit to Windmill, which is 250% damage in an AoE instantly. It doesn't seem worthwhile to hit for 100% damage to one target at a time when one could just hit all the targets for more at once. Thus, if the skill isn't going to be AoE, I think it's appropriate for it to do more damage than windmill.
  
  If it proves too powerful, which it doesn't seem to be doing, I'd hit the duration before the effectiveness so that it is at least used sometimes.
  
  If it proves too powerful because of reforges, hit the reforges. The skill must be worth using without reforges.
  
  As for metrics, you're right there, but it's also fine if the early numbers work out sometimes. Personally, I'd liked to have seen more testing, but perhaps they did more behind the scenes and the run on the test server simply confirmed what they found internally. Existing videos show it to be about at the desired power level (that is, useful when ranked and with decent weapons) even though 400% still sounds high on paper. A +50% buff would have been good if the skill's power was debatable. It wasn't.
  
  So...what's your problem with it?
• Kaeporo wrote on 2015-01-14 08:49

  Quote from Juno;1261069:

  You seem passionate about something, but I can't quite tell what it is.
  
  You say the buff is garbage, specifically the damage boost, then cite something totally unrelated to damage. Does that mean that the damage is fine and the durability use is the real problem? Or perhaps the damage boost was a good idea but durability is still an issue that needs to be addressed. Also, wasn't there talk of removing durability use for the duration of Final Hit?
  
  You talk of power creep, but we're comparing Final Hit to Windmill, which is 250% damage in an AoE instantly. It doesn't seem worthwhile to hit for 100% damage to one target at a time when one could just hit all the targets for more at once. Thus, if the skill isn't going to be AoE, I think it's appropriate for it to do more damage than windmill.
  
  If it proves too powerful, which it doesn't seem to be doing, I'd hit the duration before the effectiveness so that it is at least used sometimes.
  
  If it proves too powerful because of reforges, hit the reforges. The skill must be worth using without reforges.
  
  As for metrics, you're right there, but it's also fine if the early numbers work out sometimes. Personally, I'd liked to have seen more testing, but perhaps they did more behind the scenes and the run on the test server simply confirmed what they found internally. Existing videos show it to be about at the desired power level (that is, useful when ranked and with decent weapons) even though 400% still sounds high on paper. A +50% buff would have been good if the skill's power was debatable. It wasn't.
  
  So...what's your problem with it?

  
  
  The biggest issue with Final Hit right now is the durability consumption. That is the main reason why I avoid using the skill for its intended purpose. The damage is acceptable right now because the skill shines in certain situations. It's situationally useful and without durability issues, that potential can be capitalized on at low cost.
  
  Windmill deals 250% damage across a small area of effect, knocks targets away, and leaves the player vulnerable. It's horrible against target's with advanced heavy stander. Like Final Hit, it's also pretty bad against target's with heavy stander or auto-defense.
  
  Does Way of the Gun not overcentralize the metagame with its sheer damage output? Do bosses (to include iria raid/disciples) not see extensive, if not exclusive, WOTG usage? That skill pulverizes content and it doesn't need any reforges to do so. Final Hit, comparatively, is even better. It's nearly as fast and deals far more damage. When you're hitting targets for 20k damage per hit, teleporting across huge distances to OHKO everything, how does Windmill even compare? Why use Bash (300~675%), Smash (500~828%), Windmill (250%), Assault Slash (~200%) or anything when Final Hit just outright trumps it all?
  
  The end result is that the metagame devolves into a bunch of joey's who sweep through whole missions in a fraction of the time. Everything else is obsolete in comparison and unlike Firebolt, it's not exactly resource intensive.
  
  Final Hit is massively overpowered. It's far too strong, it's far too easy to use, and it's far too easy to obtain that power; once obtained, it's far too easily sustained. Reforges just make a broken skill even more broken. Instead of alternating between WOTG (overpowered) and Final Hit (overpowered), you can just opt to use Final Hit all the time.
• Juno wrote on 2015-01-14 09:30
  I don't know if I'd call Windmill's AoE small, and I don't imagine that Final Hit will trump it in a situation where it takes more than a few hits to down the monster due to the poor multi-aggro capabilities, but for now I'll take your word that it's useful in certain situations. You've probably used it more than me~ I suspect that the goal of these changes is to take it from that niche skill with a CD that doesn't matter because you won't want to use it again before the next oddball situation to a true ultimate skill that you use often but still think carefully about whether the current situation is worth the CD.
  
  Way of the Gun increases attack speed by 200% and makes every hit 250% damage (at r1 crit); an indirect damage modifier and a direct one that add up to a 500% damage increase. This is further aggravated by red upgrades which, while not OP on their own, cause the damage buff to balloon even further out of control. It can also be used at slight range and leaves the player open to other skills to escape/deal with multi if needed.
  
  I heard about Final Hit getting an attack speed increase, but I think that didn't go through? If so, the damage boost should be much lower than WotG. In addition, since there are no automatic crits, it won't be as silly when combined with special upgrades. Further, it locks other skills and can only be used at melee range. The only possible escape is a teleport to another mob, provided one is available.
  
  FH has a 40s duration compared to WotG's 28s duration, but can be canceled early by knockback.
  
  In short, I'm not seeing how FH is dealing more damage than WotG unless it lasts for the full duration. I do think that, with the added power, the skill should take a hit to duration, though. I'm ok with it putting up big numbers since it has trade-offs if they're not at game-breaking levels, and they don't appear to be unless I'm missing something (which is very possible.)
  
  That said, 20k damage a hit seems really high. Really, really high. I understand that you and the elite upper crust* might have the stats to put up those sorts of numbers, but I wouldn't say that's anywhere near the average case.
  
  
  
  *I was browsing the accomplishments thread the other day and...well, I was very impressed.
• Homucifer wrote on 2015-01-14 15:33
  I agree with Kaeporo that FH buff is pretty broken. It doesn't consume durability anymore, does 400% damage per hit while active, and does not cancel on knockback anymore just like WOTG. 200% dmg per hit would have been better. With my character's max damage using no reforges or enchants, r1 BFO with a 25.20% max increase with r5 singing, a red beam sword and a bargain red beam sword, the new final hit would allow me to do 3292 per hit without crits for 40 seconds with every 1 second being 2 ~ 4 hits. Just imagine the damage on heavily geared, enchanted, and/or reforged players.
• Slayerj wrote on 2015-01-14 18:16
  We all really need to stop talking about how reforges make something too powerful, too useful, all around broken. That's REFORGES. They are a good idea implemented badly. If you're going to get mad at a skill because of a pay only content like reforges, then you don't really have the right to say anything about the skill.
  
  That being said. Final hit HAD to be stronger than wm, while still offering a benefit to use it over smash/bash.
  
  WM in a decent sized AoE that deals a fair amount of dmg to an unlimited number of mobs in range. Smash deals 500-600% and leads into assault slash for even more dmg, which then can be used with WM AoE to hit other mobs along with the target monster. (Though that's situation most of the time)
  
  Most people WM a group because that deals the most dmg to the group overall in a second and can crit everyone for even more dmg, or to just flat out kill all of the mobs.
  
  People use smash as a massive heavy hitter. There's typically not even a point to N+smash for extra dmg, because that smash is going to do all the dmg you need atm to just quickly kill a single target or lead you into a combo that should finish it.
  
  Mean while, if you give final hit 200% dmg, it's still going to take you a while to kill something while other things get to look at you and agro. Which leads to you teleporting between 2-3 targets to keep from getting smacked in the face too much, thus lowering the overall dmg speed, OR you just stay on your first target and get knocked away a few times with smash or magnum, again, lowering the overall dmg speed, OR you keep with your target and just tank a few hits, which could lead to getting hit with crits and thus being KO'd. (This is the reason a single weapon causes knock-back)
  
  If you buff the dmg to 300%, it's 'better' than WM's dmg now, but it's not an AoE, so it doesn't do the overall dmg to a group. It's now AS GOOD as smashing with a 2h (if you are dual wielding) for about the same amount of time and can now do even more dmg if that doesn't kill the monster. However, you're still going to spend some time on a single mob.
  
  At 400% it's where it needs to be. You deal 'better' dmg than wm, STILL not an AoE, but you should be able to handle a monster in a timely manner and move on to the next rather quickly (as I've seen in some video's, people still take 4-5 hits to kill). It's better dmg than smash and faster.
  
  And let's not forget that FH isn't just a dual wield skill. People can use it with a single weapon or a 2h, which results in knock back. If your'e going to be teleporting around, hitting multiple mobs and knocking them back like you would if you were to use smash, wouldn't you want to be doing CLOSE to smash's dmg? Hit monster A, 400%, it flies back. Hit monster B, while monster A is down, 400% dmg, it flies back, hit monster A again, 400% dmg, it flies back, get monster C in on the action, 400% dmg, it flies back, continue just jumping from monster to monster doing 400% dmg. Less than smash, 'more' than wm, and with a single weapon the focus is to just keep knocking monsters down, dealing what used to be chip dmg to them, is now 90% smash dmg.
• ironwoman wrote on 2015-01-14 19:36

  Quote from Juno;1261074:

  I don't know if I'd call Windmill's AoE small, and I don't imagine that Final Hit will trump it in a situation where it takes more than a few hits to down the monster due to the poor multi-aggro capabilities, but for now I'll take your word that it's useful in certain situations. You've probably used it more than me~ I suspect that the goal of these changes is to take it from that niche skill with a CD that doesn't matter because you won't want to use it again before the next oddball situation to a true ultimate skill that you use often but still think carefully about whether the current situation is worth the CD.
  
  Way of the Gun increases attack speed by 200% and makes every hit 250% damage (at r1 crit); an indirect damage modifier and a direct one that add up to a 500% damage increase. This is further aggravated by red upgrades which, while not OP on their own, cause the damage buff to balloon even further out of control. It can also be used at slight range and leaves the player open to other skills to escape/deal with multi if needed.
  
  I heard about Final Hit getting an attack speed increase, but I think that didn't go through? If so, the damage boost should be much lower than WotG. In addition, since there are no automatic crits, it won't be as silly when combined with special upgrades. Further, it locks other skills and can only be used at melee range. The only possible escape is a teleport to another mob, provided one is available.
  
  FH has a 40s duration compared to WotG's 28s duration, but can be canceled early by knockback.
  
  In short, I'm not seeing how FH is dealing more damage than WotG unless it lasts for the full duration. I do think that, with the added power, the skill should take a hit to duration, though. I'm ok with it putting up big numbers since it has trade-offs if they're not at game-breaking levels, and they don't appear to be unless I'm missing something (which is very possible.)
  
  That said, 20k damage a hit seems really high. Really, really high. I understand that you and the elite upper crust* might have the stats to put up those sorts of numbers, but I wouldn't say that's anywhere near the average case.
  
  
  
  *I was browsing the accomplishments thread the other day and...well, I was very impressed.

  
  
  I see where you're coming from... but I'll give more credibility on why the new Final Hit is absurdly powerful, more than what Way of the Gun is.
  
  You're forgetting the very reforge that makes other weapons pull out higher damage than guns do: elemental reforges. Also, as of the new Final Hit content, there's a sword that will give +critical damage. Also, not sure if anyone mentioned it or not... but the new skill DOES have increased attack speed for dual wielding.
  
  With all that being said, let's take a look at the numbers here:
  
  Final Hit: Base damage*400%*1.33 (ele 3) = Base damage*532%
  WotG: Base damage*312%
  
  Now you might say that WotG hits faster and therefore wins... However, this proved to be false with the new FH.
  
  WotG, currently with Dowra R6, will net 1225.7% DPS, compared to average 1410% of Final Hit. Source
  
  And the above was disregarding elemental reforges. With elemental reforges, the DPS would come out to 1875.3%
  
  Doesn't look so appealing just with percentages, right?
  
  Since you mentioned that "the elite upper crust might have stats to put up those sorts of numbers"... I'll show you why you don't even need high stats to do damage.
  
  Let's say you have 250 max, which is really beginner tier damage. Now combine that with the percentage above. That gives you 4688 of average hit per second. That alone can clear out pretty much any content that pre-HM users have problem with, and will still clear out post-HM contents with ease. Now multiply that by three, assuming the character has 750 max, which by the way, isn't really that high, especially considering the STR potential of NA servers because of Ninja and you could even get upto high 800 or low 900, especially with SAO enchants or the new enchants that will be released, now add in 30% BFO because that's pretty average, boom, you get yourself 20k per hit.
  
  As a side note, Final Hit also benefits more from reforges than WotG will. Final Hit duration reforge is undeniably longer, and if you get your hands on elemental reforge and Final hit max damage in the same weapon, your damage potential skyrockets.
  
  I love that Final Hit got a buff in the patch, and serves more purpose. In our server, Final Hit is almost a useless skill. The new Final Hit may or may not be too powerful, but it did give people to dual wield once again, though realistically they're only limited to couple options. Personally, I'm quite excited for this patch and can't wait to get into dual wielding once again.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-01-14 20:19

  Quote from Kaeporo;1261061:

  garbage

  
  
  Whenever Kaeporo says "garbage" he means it's stupid or absurd, not the common "bad".
  
  
  I'm fine with about 150%-200% damage per hit, but 400% is way too much. However, I was hoping the no-durability consumption applied to all sources than only Swords, Blunts, and Axes, given that Knuckles and Chef's Passion don't cause knockdown.
• Zekkii wrote on 2015-01-14 21:52
  As usual they overshoot, and soon people will be demanding other classes/skillsets be buffed because they're underpowered compared to final hit. Really devCAT has no idea what they're doing, or maybe they just want to sell people reforges to use on dual swords (TWO weapons) and other FH-related slots.
  
  :whoops:
  
  Damage isn't the only way to buff something, but maybe it's the only thing people care about anymore because clouds and dragons and chibiram turn enemies into statues with health.
• Juno wrote on 2015-01-14 22:30

  Quote from ironwoman:

  You're forgetting the very reforge that makes other weapons pull out higher damage than guns do: elemental reforges. Also, as of the new Final Hit content, there's a sword that will give +critical damage. Also, not sure if anyone mentioned it or not... but the new skill DOES have increased attack speed for dual wielding.
  
  -snip-
  
  As a side note, Final Hit also benefits more from reforges than WotG will. Final Hit duration reforge is undeniably longer, and if you get your hands on elemental reforge and Final hit max damage in the same weapon, your damage potential skyrockets.

  
  
  Before we go into how broken reforges make a skill, shouldn't we establish that the skill is powerful enough in its own right? After that, we can adjust reforges so that they no longer create a problem. If we look at it from the other end we're going to end up with a skill that feels lackluster without reforges, which sounds like the complaints I hear lodged at the whole melee tab as of now.
  
  That said, I'm not going to dispute you on reforges making FH broken. I just want to make sure the skill is good enough sans reforges to be useful.
  
  Now, you mentioned that it does have an attack speed increase. I can't find the numbers on this anywhere and my korean is awful, so could you enlighten me as to what they are? I can't say much if I'm missing a huge piece of information like that.
  
  

  With all that being said, let's take a look at the numbers here:
  
  Final Hit: Base damage*400%*1.33 (ele 3) = Base damage*532%
  WotG: Base damage*312%
  
  Now you might say that WotG hits faster and therefore wins... However, this proved to be false with the new FH.
  
  WotG, currently with Dowra R6, will net 1225.7% DPS, compared to average 1410% of Final Hit. Source
  
  And the above was disregarding elemental reforges. With elemental reforges, the DPS would come out to 1875.3%
  
  Doesn't look so appealing just with percentages, right?

  
  
  The source link isn't really helpful when I can't read a word of it (though the google translation is amusing). A video or summary would go a long way. As such, I can't really tell what's going on in his test. I don't know if it's applicable in general (knowing the attack speed increase would help here) or just applicable to his character (seems like a personal DPS test?). Obviously, if he is a melee focused character (did I see him say some gun skill was rank 6? Or is that the special upgrade you mentioned?), then he's going to do better with the new FH; something that may have been a change from the old FH, hence prompting him to make that thread. Basically, raw DPS numbers are hard to work with unless we have his base stats. Thus, I'll see if I can make a general case for his argument.
  
  The only references that I can find to an attack speed buff for FH reference early testing from several months ago. It was originally 200% damage and 200% attack speed, then became 400% damage with no notice on the attack speed. Assuming the AS remained buffed to 200% (which doesn't seem like too much of a stretch), the total raw damage increase would be 800%, or roughly twice as much as I thought it was before. This is compared to 250% (crit) damage with 200% attack speed from WotG for a raw 500% damage, or ~612% with red upgrades. If those numbers are correct, then FH would win in a DPS test assuming identical attack, though not by a margin that I consider alarming given the relative risk in the two skills.
  
  But perhaps that analysis is deceptive because one set has higher base damage than the other?
  
  Gun damage comes in at (STR + INT)/5 for max.
  Melee damage is STR/2.5 for max.
  
  At caps, this means the two will have identical damage. Before caps, given that INT is relatively easier to get than STR, guns would likely have an edge. Thus, this isn't where FH gains any ground.
  
  

  Since you mentioned that "the elite upper crust might have stats to put up those sorts of numbers"... I'll show you why you don't even need high stats to do damage.
  
  Let's say you have 250 max, which is really beginner tier damage. Now combine that with the percentage above. That gives you 4688 of average hit per second. That alone can clear out pretty much any content that pre-HM users have problem with, and will still clear out post-HM contents with ease. Now multiply that by three, assuming the character has 750 max, which by the way, isn't really that high, especially considering the STR potential of NA servers because of Ninja and you could even get upto high 800 or low 900, especially with SAO enchants or the new enchants that will be released, now add in 30% BFO because that's pretty average, boom, you get yourself 20k per hit.

  
  
  With all due respect, I think your perception of average is a bit skewed. It's certainly possible to do everything you said if you're the kind of player that maxes every skill within days of it's release and spends time and gold running high-efficiency content with the single-minded goal of gaining strength. It is an accessible strength for those who go after it, but that is, realistically, a very small portion of the playerbase.
  
  That said, when one compares this 20k raw damage FH with other skills used by a player of the same caliber, does it still seem so crazy? If it did, I suspect the general case should be looking far more alarming.
  
  Perhaps the biggest problem here is that, with 0 restrictions, the best skill from the best skillset will always dominate. As players reach endgame, they have no reason to use any skillset but the one that is best in whatever their current situation is. Attempts to change that have always been met with unbridled ferocity, matched in fervor only by the complaints that one skill is dominating the game. Whether Final Hit ends up being an issue or not, I wonder if there's any possibility that Mabi won't have a single 'best skill' at any point in time.
• ironwoman wrote on 2015-01-14 23:18

  Quote from Juno;1261130:

  Stuff

  
  
  The new Final Hit is still ridiculous strong without reforges. The number I mentioned (1410%) is without reforges of any sort.
  
  Since you wanted how much attack speed it gets, here's a link with the video. Turn after 25 seconds to see the attack speed without Final Hit. The OP also noted that he may have not gotten every hit possible within allotted time, easily noticed in the video. As of right now, it's pretty safe to say that you get about 200% attack speed.
  
  Yes, your analysis is deceptive and misleading, because you're forgetting few factors. For your Final Hit damage (800%), you're taking in 0 consideration for crits. Often times, Final Hit will crit, 3/10 times, which is when this happens: 400%*7 (70% of FH) + 400% *3 (30% of FH, aka Crit)*3.34 (factoring in R6 swords) = 68.08 / 10 hit = 6.808 times your damage per hit. Now the new Final Hit, according to the test done here, will hit around 58 hits for 28 seconds (rank A), although some could probably hit more depending on connection, which is around 2.07, now multiply that by 6.808, you get 14.10 times your damage per second. The thing is, this number is probably lower than what the true DPS is because the OP stated that he may have not gotten all the hits possible. The person is also known to do tests with WotG, and according to him, Dowra R6 with rank 1 WotG would hit around 55 times (110 times if you count both hits), which results in 12.257 times your damage per second. Whether the 200% damage gap is important or not is up to you, but I'd think that much damage is pretty important.
  
  Yes, INT is easier to get early on, but we're not really talking early game here, are we...? Even in mid game, Final Hit is pretty damn powerful.
  
  Right now, the problem is that the new swords have ridiculously high damage on them, along with some equipment combination effects. And these alone, without reforges, are beating WotG right now. And the enchants for the swords available will beat out even the best damage combination for guns. So unlike what you think, Final Hit does have a ground in every area at the moment. The gap does become smaller in places where elemental reforges don't have as big of an impact, but Final Hit still does have an edge.
  
  And for my 20k max example... the point was to illustrate you don't need high stats to do damage with Final Hit. Even without elemental reforges, a beginner running around with 222 broad sword at 250 max, can still be hitting average of 2.5-3k per hit, which basically solves every problem they had for their generation quests, which beginner still struggled with. And if you get better equipments, like I mentioned, you could be doing 4.5k-5k per hit pre 1k level. I don't see this as a particular problem, as it does give some relief on human beginners.
  
  The main complaint that KR users have with the Final Hit update was that they saw it as a patch almost entirely for humans, when the original purpose was to expand melee outside of lances. I believe that Final Hit is good where it is now, although lowering the damage ratio to 300-350 would still work alright. It was a power spike that the skill needed for its long cool down.