[Mabinogi KR Test] Renovation Update - Magic // 15th of January, 2015

• Zekkii wrote on 2015-01-24 06:34
  It's hilarious when someone suggests the magic update was bad because it was underwhelming, when magic now pumps out more damage than any other class from start to finish. It's even more funny when people say that puppetry of all things, is overpowered.
  
  Meanwhile I'm just wiping out massive areas of the strongest elite enemies in the thoughtless press of a button; magic has the largest AOEs, the strongest AOEs, the fastest long-distance AOEs, the greatest versatility, easy repeatable and strong single target damage, the strongest defense, the cheapest weapons, the best ego, and everything else the world has to offer. People must be clouded into thinking they're strong because they can OHKO normal mobs, but how many skillsets can OHKO elite super bosses or NPC bosses with short-charge AOEs?
  
  If there was any actual difficulty in the game, everyone would recognize that magic is blatantly OP. I don't even play more because I've won, there's nothing Nexon is going to release that my character can't already do now. I don't need this update, I need a serious nerf and so does everyone else. It's not going to happen though. Mabinogi is just an expensive 3D fashion simulator now.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2015-01-24 07:06

  Quote from Zekkii;1262755:

  It's hilarious when someone suggests the magic update was bad because it was underwhelming, when magic now pumps out more damage than any other class from start to finish. It's even more funny when people say that puppetry of all things, is overpowered.
  
  Meanwhile I'm just wiping out massive areas of the strongest elite enemies in the thoughtless press of a button; magic has the largest AOEs, the strongest AOEs, the fastest long-distance AOEs, the greatest versatility, easy repeatable and strong single target damage, the strongest defense, the cheapest weapons, the best ego, and everything else the world has to offer. People must be clouded into thinking they're strong because they can OHKO normal mobs, but how many skillsets can OHKO elite super bosses or NPC bosses with short-charge AOEs?
  
  If there was any actual difficulty in the game, everyone would recognize that magic is blatantly OP. I don't even play more because I've won, there's nothing Nexon is going to release that my character can't already do now. I don't need this update, I need a serious nerf and so does everyone else. It's not going to happen though. Mabinogi is just an expensive 3D fashion simulator now.

  
  
  The magic update wasn't bad but they did miss the opportunity to fix certain related issues. Regardless, it's best that they move on to more pressing issues than to really dissect what few exist within the magic talent.
  
  I don't believe that magic is somehow grossly superior to other talents but I will state that I believed magic was in a great place prior to the update and it's perhaps a bit better now. I remember when the last magic overhaul "fixed" magic. A ton of people showed their support and proclaimed that DevCat had "saved" magic. I don't know...I thought magic was in a pretty good place before that update too.
  
  I'm inclined to believe that the majority of people aren't very good at Mabinogi and far fewer have any idea what they're talking about. I frequent the Nexon forums more frequently these days because most everyone on Nation has reached a certain level of comprehension; opinions vary little and conflict is minimal. The result is that discussion is pretty barren.
  
  It's easier to talk about this kind of stuff on the Nexon forums because I often hold the authority of knowledge and experience over that forum. When people say ignorant shit (which happens all the time) it affords room for discussion and subsequent growth, like a mentor onto pupils.
• Zarozian wrote on 2015-01-24 07:14

  Quote from Zekkii;1262755:

  It's hilarious when someone suggests the magic update was bad because it was underwhelming, when magic now pumps out more damage than any other class from start to finish. It's even more funny when people say that puppetry of all things, is overpowered.
  
  Meanwhile I'm just wiping out massive areas of the strongest elite enemies in the thoughtless press of a button; magic has the largest AOEs, the strongest AOEs, the fastest long-distance AOEs, the greatest versatility, easy repeatable and strong single target damage, the strongest defense, the cheapest weapons, the best ego, and everything else the world has to offer. People must be clouded into thinking they're strong because they can OHKO normal mobs, but how many skillsets can OHKO elite super bosses or NPC bosses with short-charge AOEs?
  
  If there was any actual difficulty in the game, everyone would recognize that magic is blatantly OP. I don't even play more because I've won, there's nothing Nexon is going to release that my character can't already do now. I don't need this update, I need a serious nerf and so does everyone else. It's not going to happen though. Mabinogi is just an expensive 3D fashion simulator now.

  
  
  Does this mean you are coming back to Mabi or what?
  
  Cause I kinda miss you. o -o
• Kaeporo wrote on 2015-01-24 07:26

  Quote from Zarozian;1262758:

  Does this mean you are coming back to Mabi or what?
  
  Cause I kinda miss you. o -o

  
  
  I can't speak on his behalf but he's probably in the same boat as me and tropacat.
  
  1. Update hits NA.
  2. We log in. Nothing has changed. There is nothing for us to do.
  3. We log out.
  
  Occasionally we'll hop on a Mabinogi forum to see if anyone is concerned about the lack of content but most people are too busy freaking out about wing retextures or some other stupid shit.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-01-24 07:42

  Quote from Kaeporo;1262757:

  I don't believe that magic is somehow grossly superior to other talents but I will state that I believed magic was in a great place prior to the update and it's perhaps a bit better now. I remember when the last magic overhaul "fixed" magic. A ton of people showed their support and proclaimed that DevCat had "saved" magic. I don't know...I thought magic was in a pretty good place before that update too.

  
  
  Which update was that? If that was G15, then Mana Evaporation definitely needed to burn in hell. Meditation buff was really great, as was Healing being affected by Magic Attack.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2015-01-24 07:53

  Quote from Darkboy132;1262762:

  Which update was that? If that was G15, then Mana Evaporation definitely needed to burn in hell. Meditation buff was really great, as was Healing being affected by Magic Attack.

  
  
  G15 was a great update.
  
  Enlightenment/Merlin wasn't totally needed. It was a great update (unlike Starlet/Treasure Hunter) but we could have managed without it. People made it sound like magic was unusable prior to that update but I thought it was pretty damn useful, with specific skills tailored for specific situations.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-01-24 08:26

  Quote from Kaeporo;1262763:

  G15 was a great update.
  
  Enlightenment/Merlin wasn't totally needed. It was a great update (unlike Starlet/Treasure Hunter) but we could have managed without it. People made it sound like magic was unusable prior to that update but I thought it was pretty damn useful, with specific skills tailored for specific situations.

  
  
  

  
  
  • Changing around magic defensive stats is w/e to me. Not sure if it did much other than largely inflate player's magic defense and protection.
    
  • Quadrupling Magic Attack helped quite a lot when it came to stuff that used MA, like Healing. Not sure how much Magic Damage changed though because of it.
    
  • Mana Shield nerf is pretty acceptable. I heard it the old version could potentially lower a Red Dragon's damage from 10k to 1 or somewhere around that. But the primary purpose of it was to make it less effective for low Magic Attack players, which is understandable.
    
  • Blaze usable with all staffs... Okay then.
    
  • Hail Storm aesthetic... Cool, I guess?
    
  • Spellwalk and Snap Cast kinda helped remedy a bit of magic's issues somewhat. I'm iffy about their existence.
    
  • Advanced Fire Magic, I guess it adds more diversity to magic's arsenal, also hooray for more advanced magic.
    
  • Magic Weapon Mastery literally added "fuel to the fire", which was totally unnecessary and overpowered it. Intermediate Magic casting speed reduction is meh, but with Magic Renovation that kind of adds more "fuel to the fire", I think.
    
• Shafedogg wrote on 2015-01-24 10:48
  Magic needs a buff badly. As for *removed* being an authority on the subject, that made me LOL, hard. As a mage, and a mage for 7 years, I know how slow magic is compared to other classes. I do not use any form of reforge or etc., and I can say that using magic as-is, it is too slow, even with Snap Cast. Other classes are simply capable of attacking faster, so in effect, they deal more damage (because most of the time they can kill everything before the mage's attack even lands, hence a Fireball buff) -makes shocked face-). If Nexon did not realize this, they would not be patching magic. And they are mostly patching the cooldown times, for speed. If anyone is an authority on the subject, it would be the coders that code the game itself. No one else knows it like them. I can just agree because I know how slow magic is. Lastly, I want to point out that it is their game, and they don't have to give any care to what anyone thinks. If you wish to make a game yourself, you are free to do so. If you wish to continue playing Mabinogi, you can, or not. It's not anyone's fault that you are strong, and you should not be requesting to nerf other players *removed* just because you are strong and bored. It is still difficult for new players. No one understands the scrutiny mages are under unless you are one. Ice Spear is fast, but curently can't be used with others because it locks mobs. Thunder is fast, but takes a while to strike down, and is usually interrupted before taking effect. And Fireball is slow, with cast and release, and is easily interrupted. That leaves Meteor Strike, which is so ungodly slow that it is interrupted almost all the time, and that's if it's not a mob stopping you because the cast time is so long. So thank you to Nexon, because they understand the system and what it needs.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2015-01-24 10:56

  Quote from Shafedogg;1262769:

  Magic needs a buff badly. As for Kaeporo being an authority on the subject, that made me LOL, hard. As a mage, and a mage for 7 years, I know how slow magic is compared to other classes. I do not use any form of reforge or etc., and I can say that using magic as-is, it is too slow, even with Snap Cast. Other classes are simply capable of attacking faster, so in effect, they deal more damage (because most of the time they can kill everything before the mage's attack even lands, hence a Fireball buff) -makes shocked face-). If Nexon did not realize this, they would not be patching magic. And they are mostly patching the cooldown times, for speed. If anyone is an authority on the subject, it would be the coders that code the game itself. No one else knows it like them. I can just agree because I know how slow magic is. Lastly, I want to point out that it is their game, and they don't have to give any care to what anyone thinks. If you wish to make a game yourself, you are free to do so. If you wish to continue playing Mabinogi, you can, or not. It's not anyone's fault that you are strong, and you should not be requesting to nerf other players (Kaeporo) just because you are strong and bored. It is still difficult for new players. No one understands the scrutiny mages are under unless you are one. Ice Spear is fast, but curently can't be used with others because it locks mobs. Thunder is fast, but takes a while to strike down, and is usually interrupted before taking effect. And Fireball is slow, with cast and release, and is easily interrupted. That leaves Meteor Strike, which is so ungodly slow that it is interrupted almost all the time, and that's if it's not a mob stopping you because the cast time is so long. So thank you to Nexon, because they understand the system and what it needs.

  
  
  I'm not a "mage". I'm better than that.
  
  There are no classes in this game. Unfuck yourself and get some perspective.
• Elleanior wrote on 2015-01-24 11:21

  Quote from Shafedogg;1262769:

  Magic needs a buff badly. As for *removed* being an authority on the subject, that made me LOL, hard. As a mage, and a mage for 7 years, I know how slow magic is compared to other classes. I do not use any form of reforge or etc., and I can say that using magic as-is, it is too slow, even with Snap Cast. Other classes are simply capable of attacking faster, so in effect, they deal more damage (because most of the time they can kill everything before the mage's attack even lands, hence a Fireball buff) -makes shocked face-). If Nexon did not realize this, they would not be patching magic. And they are mostly patching the cooldown times, for speed. If anyone is an authority on the subject, it would be the coders that code the game itself. No one else knows it like them. I can just agree because I know how slow magic is. Lastly, I want to point out that it is their game, and they don't have to give any care to what anyone thinks. If you wish to make a game yourself, you are free to do so. If you wish to continue playing Mabinogi, you can, or not. It's not anyone's fault that you are strong, and you should not be requesting to nerf other players *removed* just because you are strong and bored. It is still difficult for new players. No one understands the scrutiny mages are under unless you are one. Ice Spear is fast, but curently can't be used with others because it locks mobs. Thunder is fast, but takes a while to strike down, and is usually interrupted before taking effect. And Fireball is slow, with cast and release, and is easily interrupted. That leaves Meteor Strike, which is so ungodly slow that it is interrupted almost all the time, and that's if it's not a mob stopping you because the cast time is so long. So thank you to Nexon, because they understand the system and what it needs.

  
  
  Ignoring how hard the paragraph was to read (needs a paragraph break there somewhere, sweetums,) I completely agree with this. Too many people are just butthurt over nothing, as always.
• M wrote on 2015-01-24 14:23

  Quote from Shafedogg;1262769:

  (insert horrible mess here)

  
  
  I hate to take sides but, this is all kind of opinion based isn't it? Your opinion is that magic needs a buff, Kaeporo's opinion is that it was just fine the way it was (or at least a viable form of combat). I don't know you based on your name or anything but I do know Kaeporo has been around and played around with just about all the skills in the game and thusly has just as much "authority" as anyone who calls themself a "mage" in my opinion.
  
  Sure (when I played) I could have called myself an archer and say that I disliked alchemy (for reasons other than gameplay). This doesn't mean that I didn't have one of the best alchemy sets in the game and was very fluent in its usage. Labels like "mage" or "archer" really don't mean jack in this game because jack means jack, jack of all trades which is the name of the game.
  
  Also Nexon doesn't develop the game, Devcat does. Thank them. 7 years and you don't know this?
  
  Also, @Kaeporo
  
  I think I get what you were saying. Mabinogi was founded and marketed as a free-style no-class game wherein you use the strengths of one skillset to balance the weaknesses of another. Most, if not all, skillsets like magic and even archery (to the extent of power, not enjoyability) are doing just fine as they are because you have the opportunity to use them in conjunction with other skillsets to create a unique combination.
  
  With the updates and skillsets being pumped out lately (really ever since Alchemy in what, G9?) it has become more and more difficult to hybrid skills. The game is trending away from that and instead aiming towards single-skillset domination. In order for the game to do this though, they have to update the oldest skillsets to make them more powerful so that you can just focus on them. They have touched on this in melee and magic already and are really just furthering the agenda with this update.
  
  While yes there have been updates to allow us hybridization, the primary focus of most updates seems to be skillset-specialization. An example being reforges which (if you have money/gold) can allow you to super-focus on a single skillset (at a time) to allow unparalleled power. Other examples are the newer skillsets like guns, puppetry, and fighter which were not designed with hybridization in mind. Their skills are useless with other weapons (when some should seem feasible) and are difficult to stream into another skillset.
  
  What does this have to do with the magic buff? The magic buff is another example of anti-hybridization and pro-specialization mechanics coming into the game. The idea of this update is that if we just make people who label themselves "mages" stronger then they don't need to use other skillsets to cover their weaknesses. We, at Devcat, will just make each skillset individually capable of soloist, specialization gameplay rather than create content which requires specific niches to combat enemies.
  
  I'm not saying I 100% agree with this and I could be wrong about my interpretation. I am just trying to see both sides and, I mean don't get me wrong, it's pretty hard to complain about a buff but sometimes you have to look at if the buff is really needed. IMO, aren't players in this game already so OP? Does anyone really need buffs?
• KINGZZ wrote on 2015-01-24 14:44

  Quote from Kingofrunes;1262679:

  I'd say it's more positive than negative. Most of the KR Test Crew is in agreement of that sentiment. It'll be interesting to see what they do with archery.

  
  
  Same here rune. Archery is the skill set im interested in most as far as renovation is concerned. I heard there was some problems with range attack or something? Maybe they could fix (giant)
• JoeyDee9 wrote on 2015-01-24 15:03
  @M
  
  If you think it's anti-hybridization you haven't seen people go pup/gun or pup/ninja. There are so many combos you can do if the monsters for some reason survive.
  
  Act 6 ->act 7->Bullet storm->shooting rush->WM
  
  You'll probably never make it to the windmill though cause any one of those attacks can generally kill a whole group of enemies. But go try it on a boss without ADV heavy and watch it work. People have only lost a lot of hybridization because it's not needed anymore, not to mention hybridizing in the past basically consisted of using ice bolt/ lightning bolt for stun times. It's not like the game was as diverse as you make it sound.
  
  Going to do a small Comparison
  
  600 m.att took 5 minutes 30 seconds and 1k mana to do first 2 rooms of SS hard with ice spear, basically constant casting of ice spear and using it on anything and everything that came close. Running magic attack and Explosion radius reforges.
  
  Guns+puppets took 2 minutes 30 seconds with just standard game play and over 1k max with either weapon equipped. Running Crisis forge and Shooting rush forge.
  
  Time will go down a bit with the new update because of cast times, but crack times are still long so it wont change much. This isn't even elite where the magic protection of monsters spikes by quite a lot with no way to make it go down except Hydra. I'd say my skill sets are pretty comparable in the gear department and my stats are near cap except for dex. That should be a clear enough test to show that magic is falling behind in the current game. It's not exactly easy to get 600 magic attack.
  
  Lightning rod does look nice though and it's not like nothing was improved. I wasn't expecting more from devkitty, but I was hoping for more.
• M wrote on 2015-01-24 15:32

  Quote from JoeyDee9;1262790:

  .

  
  
  What I'm saying is that the skillsets were not designed with hybridization in mind. Yes it can be done. I used puppetry and archery myself, but sometimes I'd mix it up with some other skillsets if I was bored. That being said, of course it can be done. However if you look at the way combat was "back in the day," what we define as hybridization has definitely changed. You used to simply use magic and melee with a single weapon, proficiently mind you, and switch to archery on your back if needed. At the time, that was utilizing all of the known skillsets without having to change gear and you would still be a baller.
  
  I understand also that magic is slower at clearing out rooms in dungeons and whatnot. I am not arguing that it is just as fast as X. Perhaps magic wasn't designed to be the fastest? When magic was created, party play was much more of a thing. When Puppetry+Guns came out it is about soloist people clearing rooms out the fastest. The times that skills and skillsets come out are significant. Devcat is changing the older skillsets to accommodate the soloist/specialization gameplay of today rather than revitalize the party/hybridization gameplay of yesterday. I'm not saying it's good or bad per se. I am just saying that it is happening.
• JoeyDee9 wrote on 2015-01-24 15:36
  Well, my main point was that your definition of hybrids was using bolts with any weapon. A common hybrid back in the day was bow in one slot and a 2hander in the other.
  
  You weren't really hybridizing magic. You were just using bolt's to your advantage. Don't forget mana evaporation which was the biggest middle finger to magic hybrids ever. No skills in this game has been designed for hybridization, maybe the bolts were with the games release, but it's been our role as players to mix and match the skills to our liking.
  
  Also, before the defense/protection change it was actually much easier to do sulfur spider hard with ice spear. A lot of people don't really just how high magic protection is on enemies compared to regular protection. Or just the means of reducing it.