[Mabinogi-KR] Renovation: Magic Update (Consolidated and Organized)

• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-05-08 17:16

  Quote from Esileruf;1274179:

  Hailstorm's only problem is that its too fragile. If it actually could LOCK a single monster without sacking using 5 charges, it'd be an excellent snapcast>single target over this. MA is also a VERY poor standard now, as you normally will see even folks in KR basing it off of how well it does in say, SWIZ hard. Single target almost NEVER shines in MA, since you will almost always have all 8 targets to hit with primarily AOE. Even Fleta round, there's enough AOE damage to annihilate over single targeting tarlach>kristell>price>fleta.
  
  Meteor strike is still good in the fact that its long range, physical damage, and EXTREMELY high burst. Generally a safer bet to use in situations you'd find yourself risking certain death walking in there.
  
  I don't disagree however, there needs to be a few tinkerings to fix how magic balances itself, as icebolt can be disregarded near entirely until you want the +50 int, Thunder has so few uses it hurts, and firebolt's nerf has to coincide with the fix of final hit because that's just about the only plausible reason for why they made FH stupid levels of strong.

  
  
  Why did Icebolt of all things get movement speed decrease? Hail Storm would benefit more from that.
  
  Meteor Strike has high burst, but it's still too flawed. The cooldown is still pretty damn long (even though it does EQUIVALENT damage as my Sakura Abyss) and stupid sourspots throughout its edges.
  
  Icebolt was nice to keep a few targets at bay, but ended up being meh. Also, Thunder near useless? How?
• wallrocha wrote on 2015-05-09 01:31
  What would be the perfect setup for a pure mage as of Magic Renovation?? Gear, Enchants, Reforges, what skill sets to mix etc
• Esileruf wrote on 2015-05-09 02:31

  Quote from Darkboy132;1274200:

  Also, Thunder near useless? How?

  
  
  Thunder is so goddamn useless it hurts. It used to be insane for keeping mobs down. Now, whats the point? Ice spear can lock things in hard and the bonus that everyone can attack is even moreso. Fireball also deals about as much damage. Outside of rafting, which, even then if you have a 3.5k+ range bow you can raft far better, using thunder outside of snapcast is a point in redundancy because its delay time was far too low. With the reduction this is nice, but even now, 3 seconds is more than enough time for every other skillset to barge in and eat whatever you struck alive. The damage might be influenced HARD by overture, but I don't even notice it in comparison to everything else.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2015-05-09 02:55

  Quote from wallrocha;1274244:

  What would be the perfect setup for a pure mage as of Magic Renovation?? Gear, Enchants, Reforges, what skill sets to mix etc

  
  
  S6 Arcane Foresight Celtic Guardian Staff
  R6 Scholarly Intuition Celtic Tri-Bolt Wand
  
  Languhiris Chaser Circlet or Broad-brimmed Feather Hat
  Rosemary Gloves
  Royal Knight Armor
  Fleet Feet
  
  Gear for max damage on equipment and magic attack on weapons. Engineer's/Arcane are acceptable.
  
  

  Quote from Esileruf;1274179:

  Hailstorm's only problem is that its too fragile. If it actually could LOCK a single monster without sacking using 5 charges, it'd be an excellent snapcast>single target over this. MA is also a VERY poor standard now, as you normally will see even folks in KR basing it off of how well it does in say, SWIZ hard. Single target almost NEVER shines in MA, since you will almost always have all 8 targets to hit with primarily AOE. Even Fleta round, there's enough AOE damage to annihilate over single targeting tarlach>kristell>price>fleta.
  
  Meteor strike is still good in the fact that its long range, physical damage, and EXTREMELY high burst. Generally a safer bet to use in situations you'd find yourself risking certain death walking in there.
  
  I don't disagree however, there needs to be a few tinkerings to fix how magic balances itself, as icebolt can be disregarded near entirely until you want the +50 int, Thunder has so few uses it hurts, and firebolt's nerf has to coincide with the fix of final hit because that's just about the only plausible reason for why they made FH stupid levels of strong.

  
  
  Hail Storm is fine. Meteor Strike is not. DevCat did not address the most important issue with Meteor Strike, that being its horrible balance issues. At present, usage is effectively limited to acting like a sort of "stealth fireball".
  
  

  Quote from Esileruf;1274255:

  Thunder is so goddamn useless it hurts. It used to be insane for keeping mobs down. Now, whats the point? Ice spear can lock things in hard and the bonus that everyone can attack is even moreso. Fireball also deals about as much damage. Outside of rafting, which, even then if you have a 3.5k+ range bow you can raft far better, using thunder outside of snapcast is a point in redundancy because its delay time was far too low. With the reduction this is nice, but even now, 3 seconds is more than enough time for every other skillset to barge in and eat whatever you struck alive. The damage might be influenced HARD by overture, but I don't even notice it in comparison to everything else.

  
  
  Thunder isn't useless.
  
  It's extremely useful when rafting and during the falias mini-game. Snap Cast Thunder deals reliably high damage and requires relatively little preparation.
  
  The issue, once again, is that everything else is much too powerful. A meta-game that is balanced with no regard for usage results in centralized, broken game-play. If you buff Thunder to Final Hit's level, they'll just buff Final Hit so that it has pierce and splashes everything in 500 radius.
• koishi-sempai wrote on 2015-05-09 03:09
  the fundamental problem with the game and why you have to have stuff like firebolt and lightning rod is that you can either do one of three things:
  
  1: (preferred) slash physical damage back down to g14 levels and nerf most of post aces magic namely firebolt, blaze and hail to an extent, because mages NEEDED that stuff to keep up with out of control physical damage
  2: give magic overpowered stuff to compete with overpowered physical damage (what devcat is doing now)
  3: keep magic in a balance state which just happens to be useless compared to broken physical damage
  
  the problem with mabi's balance is that physical max damage got way out of control between g14 and genesis and devcat didn't fix it. tbh i'd trace the problem back to crash shot but even that wasn't a huge deal by itself. i know it hurts to hear because 95% of the playerbase abused melee (way too powerful for how simple and easy it was and is) and range (dominated every other option and only got buffs and friendly gachas and reforges that mostly benefitted rangers and melee) and nobody ever, even at the time, wanted to admit that the physical damage skillsets were getting way too much broken shit and too many free stats and too many skillsets that synergized with what they were already doing.
  
  mabinogi talent/class balance was excellent in c3
  
  (along these lines:
  melee should be reliable but relatively low damage
  range should be high damage single target fast dps but unreliable
  magic should be high damage AOE that's reliable but expensive and time consuming
  alchemy is utility)
  
  , but then it went to shit with c4 where first top tier melee could one shot WM crit elite rooms before the mage could complete their full cast...then high tier...then mid tier melee. This was before puppets btw, which just so happened to synergize with what the melee spammers were already doing. It's not a coincidence that EVERY hybrid talent has str - devcat was simply appealing to its lowest common denominator base, in which most of the players were either melee, range or both.
  
  so tl;dr, when you whine about firebolt or lightning rod, please remember the context of why those skills have to be really strong - it's because the shit you're using now needs to be half as strong at it is (no really, 500-600 max should be the gold standard, not something i can get barehanded) and because mabi favors physical damage on a base numerical level, you have to have overloaded magic skills to keep the talent relevant.
  
  it's also why i can't really get behind things like, say, nerfing raincast hydra especially since it's only a really strong strat in EMA
• wallrocha wrote on 2015-05-11 00:53
  So, it is not worth to use Magic Attack enchants other than weapons even though ALL of my reforges are focused on Magic?
  I have never got to enchant much yet for magic in a long time but I was wondering if I should go for full mage enchants other than max damage (even though I sub Gunner)
• Kingofrunes wrote on 2015-05-11 01:27

  Quote from wallrocha;1274427:

  So, it is not worth to use Magic Attack enchants other than weapons even though ALL of my reforges are focused on Magic?
  I have never got to enchant much yet for magic in a long time but I was wondering if I should go for full mage enchants other than max damage (even though I sub Gunner)

  
  
  I know for firebolt spam, max damage will give you a lot more damage boost than magic attack enchants ever will. I'm not sure if that applies to any other magic though...
• Kaeporo wrote on 2015-05-11 02:47

  Quote from Kingofrunes;1274431:

  I know for firebolt spam, max damage will give you a lot more damage boost than magic attack enchants ever will. I'm not sure if that applies to any other magic though...

  
  
  Head: 3~8 (Apathetic Treasure)
  Body: 3~5 (Welcome)
  Hand: 5~7 (Mana Hammer Homestead)
  Foot: 2~4 (Witch)
  
  You're looking at a maximum of 24 magic attack from equipment and that's factoring in lord enchants and max rolls.
  
  Ignoring Soaked, of course.
  
  That equipment could instead afford up to 188 max damage.
  
  My Rosemary Gloves have Mana Hammer Homestead but that's because I have a pair of Solo Backbreaking Bohemian Bands.
  
  
  ---
  
  Critical and balance are obsolete for end-game players.
  
  A select number of other statistics control specific talents but nothing is as universally centralizing as max damage.
• Esileruf wrote on 2015-05-11 05:10

  Quote from Kingofrunes;1274431:

  I know for firebolt spam, max damage will give you a lot more damage boost than magic attack enchants ever will. I'm not sure if that applies to any other magic though...

  
  
  All spells aside from Hailstorm, Blaze, Shockwave(UNTESTED FULLY), Lightning Rod, and Meteor Strike(UNTESTED FULLY) have an Enchant Damage Coefficient to be considered.
  With that in mind, as Kaeporo said of the matk to max damage discrepency, 24 matk is exceedingly small for the non-enchant damage boosted spells, so you might as well enchant your mage set with max attack and use it with other weapons as well, or not bother with it and use a max damage set anyways.
• Kingofrunes wrote on 2015-05-11 08:45
  Oh max damage, how universal you are. Who needs to bother with specific sets when you can just use one master max damage set for everything *shakes head*
  
  At this point, the only reason why to go with a specific magic set is for set effects and maybe if you want to get very specific magic reforges like bolt mastery. Unfournately Trinity Outfit isn't a good enough replacement for the defensive prowess that heavy armor affords. It's great for reduced mana use for sure but sucks at survivability.
• koishi-sempai wrote on 2015-05-11 22:17

  Quote from Kaeporo;1274441:

  Head: 3~8 (Apathetic Treasure)
  Body: 3~5 (Welcome)
  Hand: 5~7 (Mana Hammer Homestead)
  Foot: 2~4 (Witch)
  
  You're looking at a maximum of 24 magic attack from equipment and that's factoring in lord enchants and max rolls.
  
  Ignoring Soaked, of course.
  
  That equipment could instead afford up to 188 max damage.
  
  My Rosemary Gloves have Mana Hammer Homestead but that's because I have a pair of Solo Backbreaking Bohemian Bands.
  
  
  ---
  
  Critical and balance are obsolete for end-game players.
  
  A select number of other statistics control specific talents but nothing is as universally centralizing as max damage.

  
  
  I think max damage boosters probably need a nerf of some kind. Maybe a division into "Archery Max Damage, Fighter Max Damage, Close Combat Max Damage, etc".
  
  But again this is an example of what I'm talking about. If you look at how Magic and Alchemy work, there's a sense they actually tried (key word is tried) to balance those skillsets while with the physical skillsets there's a mindset of "let's throw free damage on top of free damage".
  
  To get Magic and Alchemy in a balanced state, you just need a few tweaks (rework MWM and buff other things to compensate, nerf/rework Raincasting). To fix the physical skillsets you almost need to throw out the existing system and start from scratch.
• Kapra wrote on 2015-05-11 23:32

  Quote from koishi-sempai;1274551:

  I think max damage boosters probably need a nerf of some kind. Maybe a division into "Archery Max Damage, Fighter Max Damage, Close Combat Max Damage, etc".

  
  That wouldn't work out because some people might've used max damage enchants with archery damage in mind but all of a sudden their hard earned enchant now contributes to melee instead. Maybe you can do that for future enchants but not current sources of max damage. (Also I don't see why separate Fighter from Close Combat damage. Puppetry and archery I could see.)
• Rydian wrote on 2015-05-12 00:38
  The stat cap should be raised and enchants only buff character stats instead to encourage variety in the used enchants.
  
  But the things wrong with the enchant system are numerous and another topic.
• ＣＩＲＮＯ wrote on 2015-05-12 01:35

  Quote from Zyrus;1266415:

  How any of us old school mages survived is beyond me. Mana evap + super high ap costs + low mana potential. Of course we were fighting things much less beefy.

  
  
  Hey, pure mage ever since BETA, yo.
• Zeo wrote on 2015-05-12 09:10

  Quote from Rydian;1274581:

  The stat cap should be raised and enchants only buff character stats instead to encourage variety in the used enchants.
  
  But the things wrong with the enchant system are numerous and another topic.

  
  
  I'm not even sure what was the point of stats cap in first place anyway... I would just remove the cap at all or leave the cap at 9999 for all stats and leave at it.