Melee Renovation Q&A

• Kingofrunes wrote on 2015-04-16 18:49

  Quote from Trevor;1271274:

  Honestly I don't see why some members are still here if they quit Mabinogi. Yes there are sections that aren't Mabinogi related but yet they still post in the Mabinogi related sections. Everyone has their right to an opinion but to keep spreading their negativity of "Mabinogi is dead' and "This game sucks" is just childish. If you are done with the game then you are done. No need to keep ragging on about the game, you are just wasting your breath because those who are still interested in the game will keep playing.

  
  
  I agree with this sentiment.
  
  It's getting really old, yes you are entitled to your opinion but to constantly shit on Mabinogi in the Mabinogi sections is a bit much. There's plenty of other sections to shit on mabi. Just look at Bean Rua for an example of this.
  
  Me, I only care about information, I don't care if the game is crappy or good. So long as there is information to share and be had, then I'll be around.
• Crhymez wrote on 2015-04-16 19:01

  Quote from Darkboy132;1271267:

  ... This sounds completely like sarcasm... Not in the mood for stupid jokes.
  
  
  
  Well, they COULD buff Hardmode dungeon mobs tremendously. They're a walk in the park now.
  
  
  
  ... Were you using a beam sword...? Seriously there needs to be some way to prevent newbies from wielding them.
  
  
  
  http://mabination.com/threads/83318-Mabinogi-KR-Renovation-Close-Combat-Updates-(Consolidated-and-Organized)
  
  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/User:Infodude575/Sandbox#Renovation_-_Close_Combat
  
  tl;dr Humans got overpowered tremendously, Elves got absolutely nothing, Giants got neglected in some areas, overall combat pace didn't change at all. New director is absolutely insane, throwing in overpowered skills here and there which can effectively replace existing skills that have been around for years.
  
  And no, existing equipment wasn't modified. They just threw in some new two-handed blunt and axe weapons that can be wielded by humans and elves, but didn't bother making all other 2h weapons equippable by them.

  
  
  I am failing to see how humans can be considered overpowered. This is mainly because i am new. But from what i read only final hit was a "human" only buff, which at rank 1(R1) has a 4 min cool down. Granted they now have access to two handed weapons... but those same weapons a Giant can use in one hand.
  From my understanding Lances were/are the "best" end game weapon... this updated seems to make other weapons like duel Wielding(new skill) and other weapons closer the the strength of those. And since Lance is considered the top end game weapon... wouldn't a giant be the better of the two races? since it can Use alchemy/lance combined.. or anything with lance.
  
  Please forgive me if i am thinking of this wrong, i don't know of the strengths of humans in game... merely because i just started. Most of my knowledge is from other players, members here and the wiki.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-04-16 19:08

  Quote from Crhymez;1271278:

  I am failing to see how humans can be considered overpowered. This is mainly because i am new. But from what i read only final hit was a "human" only buff, which at rank 1(R1) has a 4 min cool down. Granted they now have access to two handed weapons... but those same weapons a Giant can use in one hand.
  From my understanding Lances were/are the "best" end game weapon... this updated seems to make other weapons like duel Wielding(new skill) and other weapons closer the the strength of those. And since Lance is considered the top end game weapon... wouldn't a giant be the better of the two races? since it can Use alchemy/lance combined.. or anything with lance.
  
  Please forgive me if i am thinking of this wrong, i don't know of the strengths of humans in game... merely because i just started. Most of my knowledge is from other players, members here and the wiki.

  
  
  Final hit deals four times your damage for every hit, and hits twice per second. So that's about eight times your regular damage. Endgame dual swords can breech around 1,000 max damage, so that's 8,000 damage per second disregarding critical hits.
  
  Later, they buffed another skill, Bash, to 460% per hit, which is equivalent to a single Smash. However, Bash execution is significantly faster and doesn't cause knockback so it can be used indefinitely on a single target. Humans can dual wield an endgame sword that gives them 10% bash damage, which is 506% Bash damage per hit.
• Rydian wrote on 2015-04-16 19:15

  Quote from Darkboy132;1271279:

  Final hit deals four times your damage for every hit, and hits twice per second. So that's about eight times your regular damage.

  Wait what?
  
  Didn't you keep saying that the speed increase never left test? So Final Hit when dual-wielding is a combo that doesn't add stun, the timing didn't change, right? So if dual-wielding is normal, Final Hit is 4x per second.
• Crhymez wrote on 2015-04-16 19:20

  Quote from Darkboy132;1271279:

  Final hit deals four times your damage for every hit, and hits twice per second. So that's about eight times your regular damage. Endgame dual swords can breech around 1,000 max damage, so that's 8,000 damage per second disregarding critical hits.
  
  Later, they buffed another skill, Bash, to 460% per hit, which is equivalent to a single Smash. However, Bash execution is significantly faster and doesn't cause knockback so it can be used indefinitely on a single target. Humans can dual wield an endgame sword that gives them 10% bash damage, which is 506% Bash damage per hit.

  
  
  oh wow... that is broken. Do giants even have anything close to this damage? I thought WoTG was a good substitute.... but this just seems like alot.
  Final hit last for 40sec right?
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-04-16 19:22

  Quote from Rydian;1271281:

  Wait what?
  
  Didn't you keep saying that the speed increase never left test? So Final Hit when dual-wielding is a combo that doesn't add stun, the timing didn't change, right? So if dual-wielding is normal, Final Hit is 4x per second.

  
  
  [video=youtube;loF8Q15b2-I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loF8Q15b2-I[/video]
  
  "You're too slow. Come on, step it up!"
  
  

  
  
  • Attack speed set.
    
  • Beam swords.
    
  • SUPER SANIC; GOTTA GO FAST!
    

  
  
  I don't really time these things but that speed alone is enough for dual wielding attacks to hit twice per second, or at least come very close to it, I think.
  
  

  Quote from Crhymez;1271283:

  oh wow... that is broken. Do giants even have anything close to this damage? I thought WoTG was a good substitute.... but this just seems like alot.
  Final hit last for 40sec right?

  
  
  I don't have a Giant, but I seriously doubt they're able to keep up with that pace. And Final Hit is 40 seconds, yes.
• Osayidan wrote on 2015-04-16 19:29
  This update might let me sell my FH cool down lvl 19 wig for a good price. Been trying to get offers on it for a while.
• M wrote on 2015-04-16 21:30
  I'm going to just dissect this post real quick and hopefully not spin this thread completely off topic.
  Also just a disclaimer, I say all this as a member and not as admin. This is my perspective of the situation, not law.
  
  

  Quote from Trevor;1271274:

  Honestly I don't see why some members are still here if they quit Mabinogi. Yes there are sections that aren't Mabinogi related but yet they still post in the Mabinogi related sections. Everyone has their right to an opinion but to keep spreading their negativity of "Mabinogi is dead' and "This game sucks" is just childish. If you are done with the game then you are done. No need to keep ragging on about the game, you are just wasting your breath because those who are still interested in the game will keep playing.

  
  
  To respond to the bolded:
  [SPOILER="1."]"Some members," some being the key word here, do need to re-evaluate their niche in this community (no one in specific in mind). On the other hand, there are some members here who don't play mabinogi and may even dislike parts about it or nexon or devcat or etc. but continue to contribute to the community and don't post "mabinogi sux" every chance they get.
  
  For example: I don't play, but I do talk about the game, I try to help people,[SIZE="1"] and I'm admin [S]so I can't leave[/S].[/SIZE] Folks who don't play should try contributing to those who still play in some way; this is afterall a mabinogi fan-forum.[/SPOILER]
  
  [SPOILER="2."]As mentioned before, some members might have a negative view of the game regardless of whether they play or not. Every time a new update comes out, a new pet is released, or someone accomplishes something our first reaction shouldn't be "game sux." For one, it doesn't contribute to any conversation or discussion. Really though, it's immature as Trevor said and you know what, I've probably done it too. [/SPOILER]
  
  It's not a huge issue, at least not yet, but it is kind of annoying. To those who do post "mabi sux" or "game is dead," just PM me instead of posting it and save everyone the time of reading/responding to the comment; we probably already know you dislike the game.
  
  P.S. pls don't report me for derailing thread, I'm on my third strike!
• 800mans wrote on 2015-04-16 21:53

  Quote from Twin;1271189:

  First of all, I'm gonna need you to calm down.
  
  Second, as players with long experiences with this game, they're entitled to opinion of how the game is currently today. Nexon has been putting out a lot of questionable ''fixes'' and power spikes that makes this game far to easier than it should be. I thought 400% x2 Final Hit was a bad joke until I looked it up.
  
  Renovations are a good step in the right direction though. But what did Nexon truly fix? What makes make's revamped KR mabi any better than NA? because all I see is a even more broken pvp,unbalanced races,overpowered melee weapons, and everyday content still being easy. And i'm not exactly your endgame player, I'm mid-tier.

  
  
  I've been here since beta and I disagree with you. But me being here since beta doesn't really matter at all.
  
  The only thing I feel bad for is elf/range, but not going into that:
  
  Do you realize how cheap it is do well with many other skillsets except for close combat?
  
  And even looking into close combat: It's much easier to make a demonic oculus lance+ thames set than it is to make a dual wield + langhuris attack speed set. And before this patch lance was WAYYYYYYYYYY better than dual wielding. Hence why everyone uses lances.
  
  So before you look at FH being overpowered, have you considered lance as an *overpowered melee skillset* currently?
  
  All they're doing is balancing it so that dual wield can actually be on par with lances, which it deserves to be as it costs ALOT MORE to reforge to R1 TWO weps, r6 them and ENCHANT with R3 prefix/suffix( not the easy secret 67th or siege pen, etc.) than it is to make one lance. It should be fair that both can output similar dps.
  
  
  Again this is just my opinion, I never liked lances so I stuck to dual wield. It's about time they evened it out.
• Slayerj wrote on 2015-04-16 22:32

  Quote from Darkboy132;1271267:

  ... Were you using a beam sword...? Seriously there needs to be some way to prevent newbies from wielding them.

  
  
  Did I uh, say I was? No? Okay then. No, I don't use those. Never have and never will. I don't even enchant my gear most of the time. The most I do is shop reforges sometimes and a special upgrade or two on my mage humans wand. The little newbie I was talking bout was using a hatchet, a kite shield, and either a long bow or LLB with homemade arrows. I think his highest rank skill is rank 9 atm, don't remember if it was CM, Magnum, or Smash.
• Twin wrote on 2015-04-16 22:40

  Quote from 800mans;1271298:

  I've been here since beta and I disagree with you. But me being here since beta doesn't really matter at all.
  
  The only thing I feel bad for is elf/range, but not going into that:
  
  Do you realize how cheap it is do well with many other skillsets except for close combat?
  
  And even looking into close combat: It's much easier to make a demonic oculus lance+ thames set than it is to make a dual wield + langhuris attack speed set. And before this patch lance was WAYYYYYYYYYY better than dual wielding. Hence why everyone uses lances.
  
  So before you look at FH being overpowered, have you considered lance as an *overpowered melee skillset* currently?
  
  All they're doing is balancing it so that dual wield can actually be on par with lances, which it deserves to be as it costs ALOT MORE to reforge to R1 TWO weps, r6 them and ENCHANT with R3 prefix/suffix( not the easy secret 67th or siege pen, etc.) than it is to make one lance. It should be fair that both can output similar dps.
  
  
  Again this is just my opinion, I never liked lances so I stuck to dual wield. It's about time they evened it out.

  
  
  Yea I have nothing else to contribute this thread. The logic of buffing something to extreme levels just to balance something out with something else that's already way to strong instead of rebalancing is nuts. Almost enough to make meh lose hope for some of the community. Not Mabi, just some players.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-04-16 22:40

  Quote from 800mans;1271298:

  Do you realize how cheap it is do well with many other skillsets except for close combat?
  
  And even looking into close combat: It's much easier to make a demonic oculus lance+ thames set than it is to make a dual wield + langhuris attack speed set. And before this patch lance was WAYYYYYYYYYY better than dual wielding. Hence why everyone uses lances.
  
  So before you look at FH being overpowered, have you considered lance as an *overpowered melee skillset* currently?
  
  All they're doing is balancing it so that dual wield can actually be on par with lances, which it deserves to be as it costs ALOT MORE to reforge to R1 TWO weps, r6 them and ENCHANT with R3 prefix/suffix( not the easy secret 67th or siege pen, etc.) than it is to make one lance. It should be fair that both can output similar dps.
  
  Again this is just my opinion, I never liked lances so I stuck to dual wield. It's about time they evened it out.

  
  
  So, what about axes and blunts? Do they stay shit forever? Dual blunts offer no real advantage over lances or dual swords.
  
  

  Quote from Slayerj;1271300:

  The little newbie I was talking bout was using a hatchet, a kite shield, and either a long bow or LLB with homemade arrows. I think his highest rank skill is rank 9 atm, don't remember if it was CM, Magnum, or Smash.

  
  
  Mabinogi's come so far, and now a hatchet easily destroys dungeon mobs. Heck, a gathering knife would probably demolish. I remember back then normal dungeon mobs were very threatening because they actually took effort to kill and if you played your cards wrong you'd be dead. Now newbies can squish them like ants.
• Osayidan wrote on 2015-04-16 22:46

  Quote from Darkboy132;1271302:

  Mabinogi's come so far, and now a hatchet easily destroys dungeon mobs. Heck, a gathering knife would probably demolish. I remember back then normal dungeon mobs were very threatening because they actually took effort to kill and if you played your cards wrong you'd be dead. Now newbies can squish them like ants.

  
  
  And unfortunately this is a major contributing factor to new players actually picking up the game and playing for more than 20 minutes.
  
  I remember when we needed a full party to do rabbie dungeon with everyone just smashing or normal attacking the skeletons randomly with no knowledge of the AI, with skills that took time to load, and windmill that drained your HP, no AoE pets... The game was harder back then. It's also why 90% of the people I suggested the game to quit before their first rebirth.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2015-04-16 22:57

  Quote from Darkboy132;1271302:

  So, what about axes and blunts? Do they stay shit forever? Dual blunts offer no real advantage over lances or dual swords.
  
  Mabinogi's come so far, and now a hatchet easily destroys dungeon mobs. Heck, a gathering knife would probably demolish. I remember back then normal dungeon mobs were very threatening because they actually took effort to kill and if you played your cards wrong you'd be dead. Now newbies can squish them like ants.

  
  
  I'm less concerned with blunt weapons and axes (though i'm still concerned about those) and more concerned about martial arts. It hasn't been a DPS-heavy talent for a while now but now it's usefulness is exclusively limited to chain 2 debuffs.
  
  Our characters have skyrocketed while enemies have largely stayed the same. I think that certain monster attributes need to be increased across the board (namely defense and elemental affinity) but the bigger issue right now is making existing content rewards balanced based on effort and difficulty while simultaneously making said content easier to access.
  
  The absolutely dreadful Treasure Hunter update is a perfect example of how to not update content. They added new, largely inaccessible, treasure dungeons and significantly reduced the viability of every method of obtaining exploration experience aside from lich sketching and field boss slaying.
  
  It would take about 10 minutes to conceptualize a much better system.
  
  ---
  
  Hopefully you guys haven't reached the conclusion that I hate Mabinogi. I hate bad game design and propose alternatives to existing issues as a sort of Mabinogi side-hobby. I think that a lot of players are exaggerating the difficulty of starting up a new character; it's honestly not that tough to excel as a newer player.
  
  I started up a newer character a few months ago and have yet to find anything to be needlessly punishing. The additional defense from strength really turns this game into easy-mode, especially since the best rewards are usually picked up via gacha or events.
• Slayerj wrote on 2015-04-16 23:07

  Quote from Osayidan;1271303:

  And unfortunately this is a major contributing factor to new players actually picking up the game and playing for more than 20 minutes.
  
  I remember when we needed a full party to do rabbie dungeon with everyone just smashing or normal attacking the skeletons randomly with no knowledge of the AI, with skills that took time to load, and windmill that drained your HP, no AoE pets... The game was harder back then. It's also why 90% of the people I suggested the game to quit before their first rebirth.

  
  
  Honestly, what made people quit in the past was the fact that...You get hit, you die. That was mabi in the past. Just make them a bit harder to take down atm. You can now take hits for the most part early on compared to in the past. Meanwhile you can still take down the monsters easily. They also have very basic AI for the most part. SOME have what would once be great AI, like canceling smash when rushing you to fake you out to normal attack you... But we have instant load skills so it makes 0 difference. (Hell, I don't think mission AI has anything like that at all. At least none that I remember. Just rush spam and basic defend AI.)