Kenero wrote on 2015-06-04 00:18
Alright guys! Time to do this again since I feel it is time to do this.
Back before, when I did a "rank your current skill set" ... everyone generally agreed that magnum shot and crash shot was king followed by Puppet's Crisis + Climactic.
Now that some time has passed... Rate the following:
Melee, Range, Magic, Alchemy, Gunner, Fighter, Ninja, etc. using the following format:
<Type> (Melee, Range, etc)
Early Game: (out of 5 stars) [Describes absolutely getting them and starting out]
Mid Game: (out of 5 stars) [Mid Game is someone who has obtain at least expert talent with some decent equips]
Late Game: (out of 5 stars) [Master Tier with not only decent equips, but stats to back it up. May include some reforges, though not necessarily at max roll.]
End Game: (out of 5 stars) [Master Tier, with not only absolute enchants including hard to find, but maximum rolls on reforges, combo cards, etc. Basically what a skillset would look like if all the moon and planets align to burst you through every possible boost.]
Power: (out of 5 stars)
Utility: (out of 5 stars)
Solo: (out of 5 stars)
Party: (out of 5 stars)
Single Target: (out of 5 stars)
Multi Target: (out of 5 stars)
Strength: (out of 5 stars)
Weakness: (out of 5 stars)
Synergy with Other Skill Sets:
---
I would like to ask that you do not necessarily have to do all of them, if you just want to do Melee or Alchemy, or Melee, Alchemy, and Fighter, you may.
Please list them objectively as their current state in game. Also I would ask that while it is fine to discuss another person's opinion on their current position in-game, however do not start a fight and get hurt if some person feels that your favorite skill set is seen as weak, or etc. On the flip side, do not rate a skill low merely due to personal hatred/agenda against skill sets, I want to know how it currently fits in the current game.
This is just an objective point of view from THEIR own viewpoint according to their own EXPERIENCE.
Thanks, and I am interested to see what other people how other skill sets rank.
Rynn wrote on 2015-06-04 00:46
As actual combat skills in general and not just "this one skill is very useful in this one situation":
[SPOILER="walloftext"]Fighter
Early - 3/5
Mid - 2/5
Late - 1/5
End - 1/5 the will is good for crit and ninja dmg at least?
Melee (Human dual-wield)
Early - 3/5
Mid - 3/5
Late - 4/5
End - 5/5 Single target (mostly) but who cares, there's ninja and guns for aoe.
Lances (Giant)
Early - 2/5
Mid - 2/5
Late - 3/5
End - 4/5 All around well-balanced but min distance can go die.
Archery
Early - 1/5
Mid - 1/5
Late - 3/5
End - 4/5 All around well-balanced but you are at the mercy of RNG. Not worth the effort in 2015.
Magic
Early - 5/5
Mid - 5/5
Late - 4/5
End - 3/5 talk about situational usefulness.
Alchemy
Early - 3/5
Mid - 3/5
Late - 2/5
End - 2/5
Dual Guns
Early - 1/5
Mid - 2/5
Late - 3/5
End - 5/5*
*Only reaches this high when paired with endgame ninja for non-stop AoE barrage, otherwise 4/5.
Ninja
Early - 2/5
Mid - 3/5
Late - 4/5*
End - 5/5*
*Only reaches high when paired with other endgame skillsets, otherwise 4/5.
*If no kunai storm reforge lv 15+, 1/5 no matter what.
Puppets
Early - 3/5
Mid - 4/5
Late - 3/5
End - utility only/5[/SPOILER]
Kaeporo wrote on 2015-06-04 09:01
Quote from Rynn;1277277:
As actual combat skills in general and not just "this one skill is very useful in this one situation":
A lot of talents suffer from equipment dependency, which becomes surprisingly important as you progress. I'm largely referring to alchemy (two slots + unique enchants), melee (two slots), and archery (two slots). Thankfully dual guns don't require you to actually equip mana bullets.
As a general rule of thumb, the usefulness of alchemy and dual guns is inversely proportional. It's a fairly standard trade-off between safety and speed. It's too bad nothing actually threatens us anymore.
Magic splits your attention between 2~3 different weapons, so it's not entirely fair to call "magic" a powerful and diverse talent when it's actually a bunch of different skill sets with specialized weapon requirements.
The only area where I disagree with your position is regarding Ninja. It's definitely better than 1/5 without Kunai Storm reforges, especially if you take future content into consideration. You've got a ton of support options and decently powerful AOE skills that don't cause agro. I wouldn't put it on the same plate as martial arts.
Aubog007 wrote on 2015-06-04 09:05
Star ranking based on best skillset or overall ability to kill things?
Tropa wrote on 2015-06-04 18:39
Quote from Kaeporo;1277286:
It's too bad nothing actually threatens us anymore.
Devcat sure does a great job at making things threatening with each update.
I'm currently just sitting around waiting for hard content that's worth running.
callback wrote on 2015-06-04 19:31
High midgame here (7XXX, 600-800 stats [>1k int], 900-1100 resources, yet somehow no mastered combat talents, Decent equip with upgrades/sp.up but no real enchants or reforges)
[SPOILER="Close Combat"]
Power: ***** Bash and FH make for insane DPS. Bash ends up replacing your entire offense tho, limiting versatility.
Utility: *** Would be lower, but added *s for how core it is to all other skillsets. <3 WM, AS, def, counter (and smash for my ninja) Oh, and I guess technically crisis escape fits in here, tho it should just be a global thing. Always pack crisis escape.
Solo: *** Feast or famine trying to pure melee solo. In some situations you can rock everything. In others, you get quickly overwhelmed and can't even fight back without resorting to pet spam etc. Basically you need to hybrid with something that can deal with multi.
Party: *** Relieves the strain of multi from you, letting you focus DPS. Not very supportive to others tho, so only 3* for the selfish party play.
Single Target: ***** DPS for days
Multi Target: ** Bash stun makes it possible to manage 2 mobs, but more than that and you run into the age old problems of melee vs multi.
Strength: ***** DPS. Pure DPS.
Weakness: *** Multi is a killer, but the biggest weakness is repair costs. All of the good swords have insanely high fees. What ever happened to magic being the expensive one? Now it's NOTHING compared to these freaking swords. Bash chugs dura like no tomorrow making it that much worse. And this is *without* enchants. I have no freaking clue how people can use these 3x and 4x cost and not go instantly broke from a single dungeon.
Synergy with Other Skill Sets: All. Even when going pure into others you will use your melee core. As for offhand with actual melee, make it something that can deal with multi.
[/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Range"]
Uh... really lag prone. I can't SoG worth a damn so I don't use it.
[/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Magic"]
Power: **** Tons of burst with a staff. DPS is limited to CC firebolt.
Utility: *** Moderate. IS is key to the utility, especially in parties, but the new icebolt slow, classic firebolt knockback, shockwave emergency stun, magic has a decent toolkit for crowd control.
Solo: **** Generally works pretty well. Lightning rod becomes super core tho, and it can be hard to line up well. Int magic during LR cooldowns is ok, but you'll be wishing you just had LR more often instead. Fusion bolt cast time is still a pain. Disappointed that the tribolt wand can't chain fusion. If it could, we would have something to really talk about.
Party: **** More time to just spam fireballs, everyone's happy. IS the pesky ones out of your friends' way, or use your firebolt span to pin something to a corner while nuking it down. Good party play both in damage and support.
Single Target: **** Strong. Might even be ***** when specifically referring to CC firebolt spam. Just lightning rod and thunder or hail can lay down a good single target beating with a staff too.
Multi Target: ***** AoE kings. All of the AoE burst damage. LR is slightly wonky in its limited range, but it still fits well with FB and the rest to make mage clear entire rooms at once.
Strength: ***** AOE nukeage and firebolt DPS.
Weakness: ** Mana problems when spamming too hard. Meditation can help a little, but that comes with extra drawbacks against stamina and weapon switching. Even with medi, CC firebolt spam loses significant DPS during the day unless you have an eagle mask, and those are prohibitively expensive. Still, overall small weaknesses that *can* be overcome, just not that easily.
Synergy with Other Skill Sets: merlin knuckles honestly suck for magic. The lack of a blue spup and really low matk through upgrades make it so subpar compared to a real staff. Other synergy is hurt by meditation because of the lag delay to toggle it off when switching to the other set, meaning you either take a hit to your mana and leave it off, or you deal with slow transitions.
[/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Alchemy"]
I don't really use it. The "fixed" style scaling style makes it seem like it would be amazing, but realistically it would hit a brick wall fast. 5k novice water cannons are only going to scale to 6k by r1 with that skill rank bonus damage.
Utility it seems great. Sand burst, barrier spikes, frozen blast, shock, etc. All great utility. Life drain for those who actually HAVE it seems like a nice heal. Golems would be nice if their AI wasn't so crap. Hydra seems like the best skill, and that's just for cheesing invulns, abusing lullaby, or shredding a field boss for the firebolt spammers to join in.
[/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Music"]
Yay utility!
I still prefer the original 3 life skills tho. Music is the reason I started playing.
[/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Fighter"]
Again, not one I actively use. It seems like a moderately powerful, but especially "safe" single target set. Can't deal with multi.
As for utility and party play, that's where it shines. Spinning upper shred, SSK daze against master lich etc, and pummel to give the party free DPS against MA bosses
[/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Puppets"]
How the hell do you control these stupid things?
[/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Gunslinger"]
Power: **** Was my best until reno. Still great during WotG.
Utility: *** Has a lot of tools to keep you moving and safe, and to strike hard against certain enemy actions. Overall tho not super strong in utility outside of simply holding its own.
Solo: **** Fast fun and reliable solo play. Great focused single target, and fares well against multi when they are melee. Ranged multi can be a pain, as well as stomps. The fact that your AoE pulls the entire room to aggro doesn't help the matter.
Party: **** Better aggro management than solo You fare well, do ok as far as protecting allies, but don't do much else to support them outside of interrupting an incoming attack.
Single Target: ***** WotG built for DPS. FL is better than people give it credit for too. Your other skills just combo together into a flow, or act to counter the enemy and open them up for more FLs.
Multi Target: **** Basically just shooting rush. Bullet storm is too slow to execute, wonky range, eats bullets, and just doesn't flow.
Strength: **** It does damage and does it reasonably well. Doesn't do too much else.
Weakness: *** Grindy, pulls multi where others would not. Repairs are moderately pricey, especially if you try to use Officer's.
Synergy with Other Skill Sets: Goes well with melee for single target DPS uptime, I guess.
[/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Ninja"]
Power: *** Good power. Not phenomenal, but respectable
Utility: ***** Lots of utility. Area control, debuffing, CC, aggro drop, ninja has it all.
Solo: ***** Amazing solo class. Handles aggro perfectly and has a great combat flow against one or multiple enemies. Picks its own battles and knows how to win them.
Party: *** Party tends to mess with it a lot. Especially before bash phased out a lot of the use of smash. Knockback and invulnerability caused by allies tends to ruin your kunai storms and charging shuriken. The one good thing is if you can get a party willing to work with you and set up a sakura abyss. It's the only way you'll ever pull off a full charge.
Single Target: **** Good single target damage. Not great, but very safe and easy to use. It's much slower than other talents, but makes up for it in reliability and price.
Multi Target: ***** Nice multi control. Not so much in the damage category, but more in controlling it. Keeping them from overwhelming you, whittling them all down, and just having the best tools for avoiding and dealing with multi.
Strength: ***** Great playstyle, powerful and fun. Easy to smith a good weapon, and cheap repairs. Ninja is the best for casual content.
Weakness: Falls severely short when DPS becomes an issue (Girg). Grindy as hell to train.
Synergy with Other Skill Sets: Does it need any? Ninjas work best alone.
[/SPOILER]
Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-06-04 19:39
Quote from callback:
Meditation can help a little, but that comes with extra drawbacks against durability
No it does not. That was disproven a long time ago. Why do people still think that bs?
callback wrote on 2015-06-04 19:45
Quote from Darkboy132;1277327:
No it does not. That was disproven a long time ago. Why do people still think that bs?
Because the wiki are jerks? That's where I saw that, at least.
Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-06-04 19:49
Quote from callback;1277328:
Because the wiki are jerks and keep preventing people from updating and correcting misinformation there? That's where I saw that, at least.
Uhm, that was taken out two years ago...
callback wrote on 2015-06-04 19:52
Quote from Darkboy132;1277329:
Uhm, that was taken out two years ago...
From the medi page or the durability page? I swear I read it
somewhere more recently.
Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-06-04 19:57
Quote from callback;1277330:
From the medi page or the durability page? I swear I read it somewhere more recently.
Both.
callback wrote on 2015-06-04 20:01
Quote from Darkboy132;1277331:
Both.
Was it really that long ago that I capped, then? Huh. I know I read it when I was looking up the last book to cap.
Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-06-04 20:02
Quote from callback;1277332:
Was it really that long ago that I capped, then? Huh. I know I read it when I was looking up the last book to cap.
Read.
Read.
If you're still doubtful as Rydian to do some digging.
Rynn wrote on 2015-06-04 20:55
Quote from Kaeporo;1277286:
The only area where I disagree with your position is regarding Ninja. It's definitely better than 1/5 without Kunai Storm reforges, especially if you take future content into consideration. You've got a ton of support options and decently powerful AOE skills that don't cause agro. I wouldn't put it on the same plate as martial arts.
Literally the only skill that does actual damage can BARELY hit 3 maybe 4 enemies if you're lucky if you're not reforged. For an AoE, that is pathetic.
My lv 20 hits pretty much everything that spawns, there is 0 comparison to be made, that one single reforge is the entire make-or-break thing that holds ninja back or lifts it to greatness. You can tell how important it is just by taking a look around and seeing how ninja is so lowly regarded or seen as utility, as no one has any experience with the reforge and if they had it their minds would be blown. No other skill has this kind of mechanical dependency on a reforge to such a degree.
Besides, you can't properly do the relentless room-wide AoE barrage of destruction that is guns+ninja if you don't have the reforge.