Mabinogi and P2W discussion

• Slayerj wrote on 2015-06-08 22:58
  Please watch these videos before you continue.
  
  [SPOILER="Video"][video=youtube;Mhz9OXy86a0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhz9OXy86a0[/video]
  
  [video=youtube;WXA559KNopI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXA559KNopI[/video]
  
  [video=youtube;FwI0u9L4R8U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwI0u9L4R8U[/video][/SPOILER]
  
  I made this thread because talk of P2W was getting a little heavy where it shouldn't be atm.
  
  My own view of "P2W" in mabinogi is... it's there but also 'small'. Currently, the only thing in this game that is 100% pay only for POWER, is reforges, and you can still buy those from other players. That said, it's still power for cash. The free version of it isn't even 10% of what it can be with cash.
  
  While you can buy them from others, this isn't some convenience thing. This isn't for looks or for faster skill ranking and leveling only (While there are reforges for skill ranking, a lot of the community doesn't aim for those but a small handful of times for maybe 2 or 3 skills.) On top of this, it's a gamble. A large one at that. $50 dollars might not even get you half of what you wanted or even something anyone would be willing to buy from you for in-game gold.
  
  Outfits and 'special' weapons that are typically worse than what we already have being in gachas are not P2W in my eyes. They are not power in almost anyway and they're typically worse or not as good looking as what some of us like. They offer nothing in the form of a boost, they are also tradable. I do disagree with the gacha mechanic in general as it's just another way to try and force lots of money out of people for a small number of items they might actually want. This is even more apparent when they stuff tons of nearly completely useless items into these things most of the time.
  
  The bonus exp and gold things guaranteed with some gachas are fine, because while they helps you level faster and get gold a bit quicker, it's not giving me a permanent or 30 day +100str/dex/int/will/luck/hp/mp/sp. Though at the same time they'd be a lot better in my eyes if they offered a small buff to any party members as well. Something like +small% exp/gold to anyone in the party with you.
  
  (OH hey I forgot about treasure hunter dungeons..yeah those shouldn't be locked to treasure hunter talent only. That's really dumb.)
  
  
  So anyway, what do you think? Is mabi more or less P2W than other games or is it even P2W at all in your eyes?
• Daakun wrote on 2015-06-09 00:31
  The game is entirely PvE and the closest things we have to limited resources are dragon drops and ant hell herbs.
  Free players can access and and have a fair shot at beating all content given enough time, and even people who pay for earlier rebirths still have to put in the work of ranking skills and actually gaining those accelerated levels.
  
  That said, I do think they've set off down the wrong path ever since Reforges were added.
  It's like, any time someone brings up the whole "archery is trash" issue, it's pointed out that reforged endgame elves spamming magnum have the highest theoretical DPS.
  But no, reforges are not balanced and should not even be considered when discussing balance or any other form of content.
  
  Like, look at what happened to MapleStory with "potential". At first, it was fine; you pay a bit, you get a bit more out of your character, and it's all good 'cause the game is PvE anyway and all content was available for the free players.
  Then they changed the damage cap. And then they added new bosses that obsoleted all previous endgame gear.
  The downward spiral has since been taken to the point where a full team of potential-less but otherwise endgame players literally can't scratch a boss that a pay2winner could easily solo.
  
  So I guess overall, we're fine where we are now, but reforges have me leery.
• Kazusa Touma wrote on 2015-06-09 00:50

  Quote from Daakun;1277715:

  reforged endgame elves spamming magnum have the highest theoretical DPS

  
  
  honestly i dont even think this is true anymore
  
  even theoretically, i seriously doubt its on top
• Kaeporo wrote on 2015-06-09 02:36

  Quote from Kazusa Touma;1277716:

  honestly i dont even think this is true anymore
  
  even theoretically, i seriously doubt its on top

  
  
  It's theoretically unsurpassed on mobs that are affected by elemental reforges. Against those that are immune, it's probably inferior to Final Hit even with 100% accuracy. That being said, it takes FAR more work to max out Magnum Shot than it does to max out Final Hit.
  
  There isn't a single thing you can't do in Mabinogi regardless of whether or not you pay cash. The cash spent just speeds up progression.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-06-09 02:48
  P2W is never really necessary in any game, it just drastically speeds up everything. Though I'm never really keen on the idea of P2W.
  
  Treasure Dungeon is probably one of the most atrocious P2W concepts next to Reforges.
• Kazusa Touma wrote on 2015-06-09 03:05

  Quote from Kaeporo;1277723:

  It's theoretically unsurpassed on mobs that are affected by elemental reforges

  
  
  yeah, a mob that doesn't move, get knocked back, or hit you back ......
  
  and assuming you never miss, which is impossible to achieve anyway
• Kaeporo wrote on 2015-06-09 09:16

  Quote from Kazusa Touma;1277729:

  yeah, a mob that doesn't move, get knocked back, or hit you back ......
  
  and assuming you never miss, which is impossible to achieve anyway

  
  
  What did you think "theoretically" implied?
  
  People have a higher opinion of archery in Korea because they have a significantly better connection to their servers than we do ours. It doesn't matter if archery is 2000% garbage for us because at the end of the day, if Korean/Chinese players are happy - that's all that matters.
• Qnjo wrote on 2015-06-09 10:21

  Quote from Kaeporo;1277723:

  There isn't a single thing you can't do in Mabinogi regardless of whether or not you pay cash.

  
  *cough*guilds*cough*
  
  But it's an interesting thing. Reforges have blended so hard into the game that most of the players consider them natural part of upgrading process, not cash shop extras. Which isn't really a bad thing as it both keeps people happy and earns money to keep the game alive.
• M wrote on 2015-06-09 13:05
  I already went on a tangent in the other thread about this topic, but in short: p2w hurts gaming in the long run and mabinogi is no exception. Reforging is not the only aspect of p2w in the game. Rebirths used to be a necessity as well as service for a time as well (for bags and shops/housing). Additionally, enchant protection potions are big (especially before you could trade them). I would argue 99% of truly top tier "end-game" players have spent a good deal of cash on the game whether they admit it or not. At least, at this stage of the game. When the community was smaller and the game was newer, it was easier to be on top without spending much cash. Now that the game has elevated to full-blown micro-transactional madness, it's a different story.
  
  I'm fine with fashion p2w and such for a number of reasons I won't bother everyone with. Functional p2w is where I get bothered.
  
  (Also all my assumptions in this post are that p2w = being on top aka "winning" and not playing the game casually or having fun. I merely argue that in order to be on top, you have to pay)
• Slayerj wrote on 2015-06-09 14:05

  Quote from M;1277761:

  -snip-

  
  
  In my eyes, pay to win is something that you can only get via paying that gives you a direct advantage that a normal non paying player could NEVER get. So the rebirths EARLY game when you HAD to pay were an example of that, but the second free rebirths came out, it stopped being a P2W feature. Same with the games story and trans, as one HAD to pay to do them. Currently it's only reforges as even bags no longer require service and there are a few ingame we can earn with some hard work.
  
  While reforges are tradable, and so are those enchant protection potions, in my eyes they are still pay2w because there's no way to get anything even remotely like them without forking over the large amount of cash. Not to mention you're gambling a fair bit of cash on a RNG in both cases, one that's going to completely fuck you several times, and the other that's just going to be a massive pain in the ass 50% of the time.
  
  Hell even artisan removal kits are P2W as it's the ONLY way to reroll that, and getting an item 100% upgraded to that point is a pain in the ass otherwise, AND it's still RNG as fuck, so you're most likely going to use several to get what you want.
  
  All of these features, if in the normal game itself but semi rare, would INSTANTLY stop being p2w because you'd have access to them with a bit of hard work. It'd just be convince to be able to just buy them. (No, the general shop reforge tool doesn't count, because it doesn't even remotely come close to the pay version, and can't even get you some of the rolls.)
• callback wrote on 2015-06-09 15:34
  The main and only "true" p2w we have is reforges and pets. It's the only thing you can drop money on and instantly increase your combat potential. The old rebirth system (post-G4. pre-g4 may as well have been pay to play only) was not p2w, it was just a different form of booster, a simple money>time conversion.
  
  Now as far as the p2w we have, there are ways to alleviate it. All of the treasure box events are prime examples, closing a bit of the gap between what feree and paid players can afford. A good step would be adding the ducat version of fine reforges for us to use. Just something obtainable entirely solo in-game for free players top grind for. It reduces the impact of flat-out buying them to more of a time skip and less of a flat-out advantage.
  
  Pets have also gotten somewhat better. Saga pegasi, plenty of event pets, it all closes the gap between free and paid by a little bit. If we can limit the impact of paid pets over freely available ones to a matter of convenience rather than power, that will be solved.
  
  Gachas and gacha-only items are not p2w. The items inside aren't any stronger than what you can find in-game. It's effectively just cosmetic.
  
  The last issue is enchant protections and artisan restores. For artisan restores, the game needs a free version. One paid with gold that doesn't refund the proficiency. It's a grindier alternative to the convenience of paying, rather than a paid-only restrictive option.
  
  Enchants are a bigger issue. The failure rates and destruction on fail effectively limit high rank enchants to be only useable by those who pay for protection pots. The fix would be a rework of failure consequences.
  
  Possibility 1: Lower max dura loss on a failure, and removal of the flat-out destruction chance. Keep the current dura/destruction loss as loss to current dura rather than max, with destruction becoming a drain to 0. Restrict enchanting to full dura items. Possibly have a failed enchant put on a temporary repair cost modifier, lowered by rank. After a failed enchant, you chip off only a small ammout of max dura, a large amount of current dura, and need to get it repaired at increased cost before you can try again.
  
  Possibility 2: Change the dura loss/destruction to temporary consequences. Similar to how an ego loses stats when hungry, the item's max dura can be temporarily lowered by failed enchants. Release a new restorative powder only available through in-game means that restores a single point of dura from failed enchants. Possibly give high rank enchants a threshold of how many points you need to restore in this manner before you can attempt them, such as needing 25-50% of actual max dura available before attempting an enchant.
  
  
  So yes. We do have p2w problems. Not horrible ones like Maple, and Nexon has avoided making them worse, but they also haven't done anything to make them better. There are definitely some positive changes we could see if Nexon were to listen.
• Lyni wrote on 2015-06-09 21:15
  Mabi's come a long way since paid rebirths and that locked bank nonsense!
  
  I'm really satisfied with adventure seals and saga tickets regarding cash shop items. Also, the Combat Pegasus solved some of the realistic movement and storage issues for F2P life, so I'm pretty comfortable with the existing distinction between free and paying players. Except for platinum durability hammers. "orz
  
  
  
  
  ...And can we please fix reforging.
• koishi-sempai wrote on 2015-06-09 22:09
  As callback said, reforging isn't nearly as big a problem as enchanting, because enchanting actually puts your item at risk at least for the high end ones. If content is too easy, it's because our stats are too high.
• Odinwolfe wrote on 2015-06-10 02:17
  Sorry to bring up another game but it is almost identical to Reforges; I have played MapleStory for years. Since 2006.
  When "Potential" was introduced, I immediately knew that I would be left in the dust in terms of power.
  Potential works almost exactly like Reforges in Mabi. Except for the fact that Pot (for short) affects Power a great deal more than Reforges.
  Fine Reforges:Miracle Cubes, are quite disgusting. In Maple, it is a necessity to use cubes, whereas with Mabi, it is an optional benefit.
  
  No player on Maple thinks that it is viable to play without Cubes.
  
  I have had this grudge with nexon for years now, and it obviously gets them enough money for them to keep selling and implementing new facets of Cubes, and possibly reforges.
• Aubog007 wrote on 2015-06-10 02:23
  Mabi is pay to win easily. Reforges and prots
  
  "You can buy them from other players"
  So? They paid for it, still pay2win
  
  Then there's enchanting to remove shitty rng from destroying your crap.
  
  Without reforges and enchant prots, there'd be a lot less endgame gear, if any.
  It's funny, endgame only exists because of $$$
  
  For instance, i could come back, throw 1k dollars and BAM, p2W, and at a faster rate than non pay2win players.