Why are so many people gushing over Karok?

• foreignreign wrote on 2011-01-25 03:04

  Quote from Andy-Buddy;303479:

  The thing that irks me is that people believe Karok will replace Fiona.
  
  Karok absorbs attacks and powers through them. If this video is any example, there is a large chance that he could be taking heavy damage if played to be offensive. Karok is a wrestler type, to stop the boss at certain times, and inflict damage all the time.
  
  Fiona is a dancer, blocking, guarding, and flying back until the perfect moment is open for a normal attack. Her stun and large amounts of damage while the monster attacks is what separates her from a Lann right now.

  
  
  Here's how I see it:
  
  What separates Fiona from Lann is that Fiona will make her own opportunities to attack, whether it be with counterattack, shield bash or with her high knockdown, as opposed to Lann (and Evie's for that matter) method of attacking at only when the boss is open.
  
  Fiona right now is the only character that can attack and defend at the same time (counterattack). Karok, however, is also able to attack and defend at the same time (damage absorption and boss grappling). The difference here is that not only can Karok heal while doing damage, he can also regularly and effectively attack against a boss's smash attack with no penalty (in fact he comes out on the plus side when attacking), while Fiona's Heavy Stander Counterattack supposedly sucks from what I hear.
  
  Which also highlights another problem: a Fiona player must be able to discern between regular attacks and smash attacks. No other class needs to do this; it doesn't matter for any of them. However, if a Fiona player Guards a smash attack, they're down. If they heavy stand a regular attack, that was a wasted opportunity (Blood Lord has some annoying mixups, for instance). And this won't change when Karok comes in, because whether it be normal attack or smash, he can still power through it with damage absorption, so the only thing he needs to worry about is timing (which Fiona also needs to worry about if she wants to get a perfect Guard off).
  
  Though in the end I think it'll all hinge off of how big of a window Karok has with his damage absorption skill. If it's as big as Fiona's perfect Guard window, then Fiona will become obsolete (perfect Guarding is pretty easy). If it's smaller, Fiona will have a chance.
• Andy-Buddy wrote on 2011-01-25 03:18

  Quote from foreignreign;303662:

  Here's how I see it:
  
  What separates Fiona from Lann is that Fiona will make her own opportunities to attack, whether it be with counterattack, shield bash or with her high knockdown, as opposed to Lann (and Evie's for that matter) method of attacking at only when the boss is open.
  
  Fiona right now is the only character that can attack and defend at the same time (counterattack). Karok, however, is also able to attack and defend at the same time (damage absorption and boss grappling). The difference here is that not only can Karok heal while doing damage, he can also regularly and effectively attack against a boss's smash attack with no penalty (in fact he comes out on the plus side when attacking), while Fiona's Heavy Stander Counterattack supposedly sucks from what I hear.
  
  Which also highlights another problem: a Fiona player must be able to discern between regular attacks and smash attacks. No other class needs to do this; it doesn't matter for any of them. However, if a Fiona player Guards a smash attack, they're down. If they heavy stand a regular attack, that was a wasted opportunity (Blood Lord has some annoying mixups, for instance). And this won't change when Karok comes in, because whether it be normal attack or smash, he can still power through it with damage absorption, so the only thing he needs to worry about is timing (which Fiona also needs to worry about if she wants to get a perfect Guard off).
  
  Though in the end I think it'll all hinge off of how big of a window Karok has with his damage absorption skill. If it's as big as Fiona's perfect Guard window, then Fiona will become obsolete (perfect Guarding is pretty easy). If it's smaller, Fiona will have a chance.

  
  
  The thing is, Karok attacks slowly, extremely slowly. Also, the window is about the size of Lann's Slip Dash, so it's not too reliable. (Assuming the time is not improved by rank.)
  
  Discerning a Smash and a normal attack grows to be nothing for an experienced Fiona. It took me nye 3 runs to master solo confrontations with the Blood Lord.
  
  Also: Karok does not heal from using his special ability.
  
  Karok's grab does not work with every boss attack. Not even every smash, either.
  
  
  
  I really think you should take everything you read with a pinch of salt. Not everything is exactly as it appears, and current characters have their advantages.
  
  Fiona is special in her ability to dance and to switch to Large Shields.
  
  Karok seems to be able to tank constant attacks quite well, but how is a series of 3 quick attacks? How about a Fleeing Gnoll King rush?
• foreignreign wrote on 2011-01-25 03:49

  Quote from Andy-Buddy;303689:

  The thing is, Karok attacks slowly, extremely slowly. Also, the window is about the size of Lann's Slip Dash, so it's not too reliable. (Assuming the time is not improved by rank.)

  
  
  This is something that we'll only be able to really tell once we get our hands on it due to lack of info (the window) and how big of a gap that really is with enough experience. Although I will say that a hammer Fiona isn't exactly a fast attacker herself, moreso when she's hitting multiple enemies with her hammer (although that isn't a problem against most boss fights). I'm not saying she's necessarily as slow as Karok, but I'm not going to give her (at least her with a hammer) the benefit of attack speed, at least not without trying Karok.
  
  

  Discerning a Smash and a normal attack grows to be nothing for an experienced Fiona. It took me nye 3 runs to master solo confrontations with the Blood Lord.

  
  
  That's irrelevant. It doesn't matter how easy it is to overcome, but rather, that this added layer of difficulty does exist. It adds another chance of messing up just because of a bad guess.
  
  

  Also: Karok does not heal from using his special ability.

  
  
  I guess "heal" is the wrong way to put it, but going off from the only skill info I have, he can use it to recover HP in some manner. In one of the Karok videos posted in this thread, the amount of damage he took was negligible, if he took any at all.
  
  

  Karok's grab does not work with every boss attack. Not even every smash, either.

  
  
  I never said it did. It's just one of his options.
  
  

  I really think you should take everything you read with a pinch of salt. Not everything is exactly as it appears, and current characters have their advantages.
  
  Fiona is special in her ability to dance and to switch to Large Shields.

  
  
  I don't see where you're coming up with this "dance" bit, since that's such a meaningless term to me. Lann has the ability to "dance" with his spinning, and is able to even attack while "dancing," so does that make him better than Fiona? And what benefit does Fiona get from switching to Large Shields, other than being unable to use one (or two) of her most important attacks with it? The only thing that large shields let her do is turtle, which inevitable lowers her overall DPS.
  
  

  Karok seems to be able to tank constant attacks quite well, but how is a series of 3 quick attacks? How about a Fleeing Gnoll King rush?

  
  
  And what does Fiona do against flurries of attacks? If it's a series of normal attacks, she has to wait for the last one to finish before going on the offensive, otherwise the combo will get her. And what does Fiona do against Fleeing Gnoll King's rush? The best option even for Fiona is to just dodge it since all of the attacks up to the final attack will chain into each other so you can't counterattack any of them or else you'll die, and the final attack is a smash so there's nothing you can do against that either, at least not until we have HSC. So to the first question; Karok would probably dodge the first two attacks and attack through the third if possible, and in the second question he would just dodge it completely, like everyone else would.
• Andy-Buddy wrote on 2011-01-25 04:20
  The point I was trying to make about the slow attack speed is that his defense is entirely dependent on him attacking. A Fiona can guard, and stay in guard for however long she wishes, and can exit and reguard almost immediately.
  
  Karok is left with open points throughout his combo, and if you wait for each attack, each attack of the combo is different, so you must know the timing for every attack.
  
  Let's kill two birds with one stone:
  
  Fiona can 'dance' in the way of staying constantly at the battle's edge, never having to dodge any boss attack. Every boss attack which is currently released can be blocked perfectly, with little to know consequence, and can stay constantly in the boss's face.
  The point I was trying to make about the Fleeing Gnoll King's rush is that the Fiona has the option to stay within the boss's range, and can easily get in a strong attack in the short in-between periods.
  
  Please direct your attention to the Reaper video posted about 4 posts up. It clearly shows how often a Karok would have to keep up his HP for the sake of survival. I'm not saying he is a bad character, there may just be a bad player, but from my observations I see that Karok, with a moderately experienced player, will still have difficulty with timing his punches to block every attack of a boss which never rests.
  
  (And imagine having to fight Blood Lord, constantly teleporting and popping up in unknown places. You would never know which direction to punch, even if you timed each attack right.)
• Habskii wrote on 2011-01-25 05:06

  Quote from foreignreign;303733:

  
  ..........
  And what does Fiona do against flurries of attacks? If it's a series of normal attacks, she has to wait for the last one to finish before going on the offensive, otherwise the combo will get her. And what does Fiona do against Fleeing Gnoll King's rush? The best option even for Fiona is to just dodge it since all of the attacks up to the final attack will chain into each other so you can't counterattack any of them or else you'll die, and the final attack is a smash so there's nothing you can do against that either, at least not until we have HSC. So to the first question; Karok would probably dodge the first two attacks and attack through the third if possible, and in the second question he would just dodge it completely, like everyone else would.

  
  
  Nope. Karok can with stand it, as long as he hits the smash and dodge key repeatedly he can shock absorb most of it. Reason why is because of the chain and due to that he won't be able to recover the full initial hp lost so it'll prolli fill 400/600 then he'd get hit again with the next axe and so on. Want Proof? I OBVIOUSLY have a video of everything. I'd rather you guys take my word for it or for you to search it yourself. It's kind of a nuisance for me to look for old vid's i've seen a month or 2 ago to post up (not to boast or to be offensive in anyway) . Also fiona is able to block all of King gnoll's rage sequence. Again i can find the video for it if you'd like :| The only reason why you guys say she can't is because NO ONE in NA can do it. Obviously it's a korean specialty and i've only be able to see korean players pull off multiple heavy standers quickly :\
• Andy-Buddy wrote on 2011-01-25 05:13

  Quote from Habskii;303780:

  Nope. Karok can with stand it, as long as he hits the smash and dodge key repeatedly he can shock absorb most of it. Reason why is because of the chain and due to that he won't be able to recover the full initial hp lost so it'll prolli fill 400/600 then he'd get hit again with the next axe and so on. Want Proof? I OBVIOUSLY have a video of everything. I'd rather you guys take my word for it or for you to search it yourself. It's kind of a nuisance for me to look for old vid's i've seen a month or 2 ago to post up (not to boast or to be offensive in anyway) . Also fiona is able to block all of King gnoll's rage sequence. Again i can find the video for it if you'd like :| The only reason why you guys say she can't is because NO ONE in NA can do it. Obviously it's a korean specialty and i've only be able to see korean players pull off multiple heavy standers quickly :\

  
  
  If only you played with me on West. If I'm in the right mood, I can dodge consecutively in perfect timing many times.
  
  Also, thank you for clearing up the "What happens if you are mid-regeneration and you are hit again."
  
  It is fast regeneration, but I guess it doesn't stack perfectly every time.
• Habskii wrote on 2011-01-25 05:34

  Quote from Andy-Buddy;303783:

  If only you played with me on West. If I'm in the right mood, I can dodge consecutively in perfect timing many times.
  
  Also, thank you for clearing up the "What happens if you are mid-regeneration and you are hit again."
  
  It is fast regeneration, but I guess it doesn't stack perfectly every time.

  
  
  Lol so only when your "in the right mood?" And im quite well with my spear lann :3
  
  Well it depends on the initial damage if the damage was 500 or less it sould be able to fill before the next hot. but if its 700 it'd go slower to fill (refer to the polar bear video). It perfectly stacks the only problem/downfall is that it can be interrupted at anytime by anything. :\
• Andy-Buddy wrote on 2011-01-25 05:38

  Quote from Habskii;303801:

  Lol so only when your "in the right mood?" And im quite well with my spear lann :3
  
  Well it depends on the initial damage if the damage was 500 or less it sould be able to fill before the next hot. but if its 700 it'd go slower to fill (refer to the polar bear video). It perfectly stacks the only problem/downfall is that it can be interrupted at anytime by anything. :\

  
  
  Oh, if I'm playing Vindi, I can always pull things off perfectly. At least defensive-wise.
  
  Sneaking in attacks is harder, but oh so much more satisfying.
  
  Okay, so Karok's place in a party, and will there ever be a need for more than one in any party?
  
  His grapple honestly seems like a support attack, as it leaves him open to other mobs attacking him, and he loses too much stamina per grapple to make the DPS worth anything.
• Habskii wrote on 2011-01-25 06:09
  Well depending on all monster bosses as usual. It's like black scar fleeing, you would want more sword lands and evy's in it than anythin else (minimal fiona's since mot of them can't quickly apply HS as they think they could) and for lagho run, ppl prefer Spear lans and scythe evies only. If it was me, for any raid, i'd want to have 1 or 2 karoks in my party alteast.
  Party of 4? any lann, anny fiona, 1 karok, and then 1 evy (scythe prefered, mage evy are better with oaths ex potion, armor repair, no fethers etc)
  It all depends in the situation but whether it'd be a normal run or raid you should have atleast 1 karok in there , unless the raid bosses are like lagho (which isn't the case after blood lord. Stun lock is WAY much harder to accomplish)
  I usually tell my guildies to assist and do Blood prince with 9 ppl and such for fun ^^ so....yeah.....
• whocares8128 wrote on 2011-01-25 19:11

  Quote from foreignreign;303733:

  And what does Fiona do against Fleeing Gnoll King's rush? The best option even for Fiona is to just dodge it since all of the attacks up to the final attack will chain into each other so you can't counterattack any of them or else you'll die, and the final attack is a smash so there's nothing you can do against that either, at least not until we have HSC.

  
  
  I don't agree with this. It's not hard to block every one of the attacks, and every block adds to your SP. In solo, it may make sense to dodge and ready yourself better to retaliate. But in a group, it's far too easy to dodge it, only to have another party member lead him to you. Blocking for the rush won't hurt you if it misses, but if someone leads the boss to you when you thought you had dodged it...that's a different story.
  
  I always block every attack of his, because I enjoy doing it. You can even squeeze in a counter after 2 swings of his aerial combo before HS'ing to block the final smash.
• JMan wrote on 2011-02-06 08:30
  BECAUSE HE IS VERY VERY FUN TO USE
  He runs the same speed like everyone else
  he is about the same or maybe a tad faster then my fiona idunno terrible judge at stuff liek that
  He loses no stamina when grabbing enemies and move faster then the other chars that can grab enemies
  

  [Image: http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk168/jmanx13/Mabinogi%20Heroes/2011_02_03_0001.jpg]
• Aryli wrote on 2011-02-06 13:16

  Quote from Habskii;303830:

  Well depending on all monster bosses as usual. It's like black scar fleeing, you would want more sword lands and evy's in it than anythin else (minimal fiona's since mot of them can't quickly apply HS as they think they could) and for lagho run, ppl prefer Spear lans and scythe evies only. If it was me, for any raid, i'd want to have 1 or 2 karoks in my party alteast.
  [...]
  I usually tell my guildies to assist and do Blood prince with 9 ppl and such for fun ^^ so....yeah.....

  
  
  Really? I honestly don't think I'm that great at Vindictus at all, but I can heavy stander Fleeing Gnoll King just fine, both solo and in a party. Personally, I've partied with some decent Fionas in Fleeing Gnoll King, and the amount of times I've witness this makes me believe that good Fionas who know how to use their skills are actually pretty common. It's one reason why I know I'm not that great of a Fiona (decent, but not amazing). It feels like I'm the only one who meets good Fionas because I always hear how Fionas suck and can't even use their own skills right.
  :what:
  And how the heck can you have 9 people in blood prince? Even if you meant Blood Lord, you can only have one person assist in a party.
• xuantian wrote on 2011-02-06 18:13
  Since Karok haven't come out yet, most of us wont understand his playstyle until we really have played him.
  For me, I just want to have all 5 character.
  
  Fiona is definitely very good if played well, that goes to evie too. (I just understood how hard to play scythe...not for me.)
• Habskii wrote on 2011-02-06 21:00

  Quote from Aryli;322867:

  Really? I honestly don't think I'm that great at Vindictus at all, but I can heavy stander Fleeing Gnoll King just fine, both solo and in a party. Personally, I've partied with some decent Fionas in Fleeing Gnoll King, and the amount of times I've witness this makes me believe that good Fionas who know how to use their skills are actually pretty common. It's one reason why I know I'm not that great of a Fiona (decent, but not amazing). It feels like I'm the only one who meets good Fionas because I always hear how Fionas suck and can't even use their own skills right.
  :what:
  And how the heck can you have 9 people in blood prince? Even if you meant Blood Lord, you can only have one person assist in a party.

  
  
  
  Ummm....no it was blood prince. One person assist? Since when? I havn't done it again since blood lord came out but before that i did a 6 person run on fleeing gnoll. When i get time i'll try again to see if it limits the amount of assist's.
• Mello wrote on 2011-02-07 07:09
  Well there are gameplay videos nowadays, and Karok does have a dodge its much like Lanns combat leap and he also has a spin move similar to hurricane Personally I find Karok too ugly and repulsively disgusting to play as. I'll stick with my sword Lann Dual wieldings my thing and I find spinning quite nooby, I'd rather rapidly stab than spin around like a
  d ouchebag