Reverse Sexual Harassment

• Teaberry wrote on 2010-12-02 23:32

  Quote from Adelynn;235451:

  Any guy that's asked ME out, I've turned down.

  This is why I've stopped asking women out.
  
  

  Quote from Adelynn;235451:

  ...I could end up waiting forever.

  Which is related to some women, like Adelynn here, waiting forever for a man to ask them out.
  
  But that's a whole different discussion. Sexual harassment happens a lot. And while I wouldn't say a majority of the time it's "reverse" I'd say that it happens more often than more people think. The problem is it's practically socially acceptable for a woman to tease another guy in the workplace. It's all fun and games when the lady is in the mood to be playful. But when it's the other way around it's a lawsuit.
  
  On the more extreme side of things, it's not that most rape causes (where the victim is male) are ignored, it's that they aren't reported in the first place. I guess the notion that it's going to be ignored makes most people not report it at all.
  
  At any rate, I'm all for equality and a lack of double standards, but most people who argue for those sort of things don't consider the benefits they'd lose in the process of making that a reality. My two cents on the main topic, and now back to boys falling head over heels for every cute girl they see..
• hengsheng120 wrote on 2010-12-02 23:33
  not really i've never asked a girl out first...
  if they know that you are shy and still approachable, they will ask you out or ask their friends to ask you to ask them out... usually in private (including the internet)
  the only problem is liking those girls that ask you out first. be flattered if they do, if you make them feel rejected they'll never ask out first ever again.
• Teaberry wrote on 2010-12-02 23:37

  Quote from hengsheng120;235504:

  the only problem is liking those girls that ask you out first. be flattered if they do, if you make them feel rejected they'll never ask out first ever again.

  
  As I said just above your post, I've stopped asking girls out altogether (as a result of being turned down every time.) As a result, all of my girlfriends have asked me out first, and I never turn them down. It's not because I like every girl on the face of the planet, it's because I feel I should give them a chance. After a first or second date I think both parties know how good the chemistry is and could call it quits with no bad feelings. But to turn it down outright just leaves that rejection feeling.
• Adelynn wrote on 2010-12-02 23:46
  I've never actually waited for anyone. They came to me, and it could get really creepy.
  One of the people that asked me out was a huge pervert and couldn't keep his hands to himself.
  The other was mentally challenged and while I don't hold that particular thing against him, he would also stalk me on the way home until someone told him to stop.
  Another one was racist.
  The other was 3 years younger than me.
  You get the idea. DX
  
  I keep thinking of that Family Guy episode where people make fun of Peter for saying he was harassed. It was funny but it made me sad at the same time. Men try to be mach because that's how society says they should be, and if they report this, they'll feel like pansies. It's the same thing about how if a woman cries it's fine, but if a man does it, it's not. Some big changes would be required that not everyone would agree with.
• Phanterz wrote on 2010-12-04 05:22
  This happens in terms of race too.
  
  People assume, for example, that African-American people are racially harassed and therefore make efforts to stay away from any hint of racism. In that, they are opening the doors for an inversion of the "normal" racism. This is not supposed to be racist, but 80% the African-Americans at our school are completely racist to other ethnic groups and are racially immune due to having dark skin. One person in our school is pending suspension just for calling an African-American person "ghetto."
  
  Back to topic:
  Male and female are not biologically equal and they can never be equal unless some genius comes up with an epic idea. The best form of action would be to acknowledge that they are not equal, but not go to extremes (ex: no women's suffrage) over it.
  
  Double standards are so obvious it's disturbing sometimes. There's a female teacher in our school who openly admitted to being biased toward girls, and I haven't seen anything happen over it. People automatically assume that females somehow have purer personalities than males.
  
  In summary, people go to extremes attempting to uphold an ideal that cannot exist, and end up distorting the ideal so that it becomes the opposite of what it originally was.
  
  end formality
• Ailyene wrote on 2010-12-06 10:04
  Honestly, I think society is still a lot more sexist towards women than towards men. It's just that it used to be extremely sexist against women. Now it's just a lot less...but there's still quite a bit there. For example, same job positions but lower pay for women etc. (office jobs mind you)
  
  My guy friend told me it was pretty impossible to rape a guy. o_O I don't want any details, but um...yeah, I'm surprised there's reverse rape. If it's rape, no matter who did it to who, it's wrong. >:| Don't blame society though. Blame the government.
  
  As for the "why can women hit men but men can't hit women" thing...well, if you think about it, guys generally tend to have more strength (or in some cases, a lot more strength) than girls. I can probably hit my guy friends and it wouldn't hurt them at all, but they hit me and it hurts like hell. Or maybe it just hurts them a little while for me, it hurts a ton. Of course it's wrong to be able to hit someone and get away with it, but I do not support being able to hit anyone back. I think this is why it's generally not okay to hit a girl. If you have girl friends and they're hurting you a lot by hitting you, just explain to them about how you feel so they'll know. Yes, the girls are wrong for hitting you first, but it's not really right to hit people back because a fight will just break out. This applies to anyone, actually, whether it's girl VS guy or guy VS guy...or girl VS girl.
  
  As well, I've never really encountered a situation where the guy was given heavy work to do rather than a girl who is stronger than him. In all the cases I've seen, the guy was always stronger and of course the stronger person has to do it. In my family, I'm stronger than my mom so she always gets the easy load (I feel bitter about it like every other person but I just suck it up). And my dad is stronger than me so he gets the heaviest one. If you just happen to be the strongest, poo for you I guess. If you aren't, then complain to the person who's giving you work. =P
  
  I'm scared of spiders, so I ask the person who is less scared of spiders to get rid of it. Apparently being scared of bugs is a very "girl" thing, which probably means that most girls or a lot of girls are scared of bugs. If there are a lot of guys who are scared of bugs too but they're hiding it because they want to be manly or something, that's their problem. It's not our problem to not ask the guy who appears to be less scared to get rid of it if he's going to pretend he's not scared. And if he's scared, we can get rid of it together.
  
  Society is far from being anywhere near perfect. All I can say is that there aren't enough people complaining about issues such as being hit by girls. It's their fault that people think it's okay, since they don't voice their complaints. I mean, you can't expect everyone to have the same moral standards. However, many men also have double standards about men. It's not just the women thinking this way. There are tons of men who feel that because they are "the man", they should pay for dinner, open the door, etc., so you'd have to change their minds too for anything to change. My friend told me that one time she insisted on paying for dinner and her boyfriend got kind of mad at her...because she didn't let him pay for dinner. o_O Kind of funny actually lol.
  
  Edit: Here's something I thought about later that relates to this. The Rihanna VS Chris Brown thing. I'm not exactly sure what had happened, but a bunch of people were saying that Rihanna deserved to be beat up like that because she hit her boyfriend first, which is completely and totally wrong. Even if she did do the first slap, he beat her up blue and black. But he was fine. That is wrong no matter who had the first hit.
• Sarinii wrote on 2010-12-06 11:08

  Quote from Adelynn;235519:

  
  Men try to be mach because that's how society says they should be, and if they report this, they'll feel like pansies. It's the same thing about how if a woman cries it's fine, but if a man does it, it's not. Some big changes would be required that not everyone would agree with.

  
  
  Actually, i personally find it very difficult to cry in front of others, even my family, and girl-friends. I find it almost humiliating and i don't see how being a girl gives you to right to cry shamelessly. I don't know about you guys, but when i was younger i remember BRAGGING to friends that i was a 'tomboy' and that i 'never' cried. When i look back on that i find it amusing, but when applying that to the topic, i ask, are women subconciously feeling pressured to be more like men in order to get ahead in society? I know that we were young, so it may of just been a phase, but who knows, it could mean something.
  
  Also, in terms of how women can get away with sexual harrasment; i was reading an article in the paper (Sydney Morning Herald) today and i found something that's quite relevant.
  
  IF YOU CAN BE BOTHERED TO READ IT ALL. Or tl;dr to the bolded parts. Bolded parts indicate what piques my interest.
  
  

  The $37 million question
  THE INSIDE STORY OF THE KRISTY FRASER-KIRK SEXUAL HARASSMENT CASE.
  BY FENELLA SOUTER
  It was startling, the swiftness with which the Kristy Fraser-Kirk and David Jones case exploded. At the start of a lunch held on May 23 this year, we can imagine Mark McInnes, 45, a man of medium stature but meteoric rise, might have been brimming with the kind of selfassured bonhomie that comes with being the top executive of Australia’s most distinguished retailer.
  
  Facing the press: Kristy Fraser-Kirk and her parents at a media conference in August.
  By dessert, he still had reason to be buoyant, smoothly gliding, perhaps, on the updraughts of hubris that can send men of power to dizzying heights. But up there, in that rarefied air, he was about to cross a line that should have signalled “danger” to him like a DJs nativity window signals “family values”.
  
  The blunder, combined with a flurry of emails and messages, and another incident in June, would cost him his job a mere 25 days later. It would send David Jones into major damage control to protect its good name. And it would thrust a young woman, 20 years McInnes’s junior and many rungs below his level of power, to the forefront of one of the most publicised sexual harassment cases in Australian history.
  
  The case would never make it to court, but it would feel as if it had. Between June and October, it played out almost daily in the media, each party’s hired PR flacks feverishly practising the dark arts of spin, an alchemy that can transform a merely flawed man into a monster, and a victim into a scheming temptress.
  
  Over the weeks, opinion lurched like a drunk in a blind alley … She was the wronged party; no, she’d led him on. He was a sleaze with a pregnant girlfriend at home; no, he was just an inveterate flirt who’d misread the signals. She was a courageous young woman, a product of Gen Y, taking on a CEO and a major company to send a message about sexual harassment; no, she was a golddigger making a fuss over nothing – $37 million for touching a bra strap! He’d become a liability; no, other companies couldn’t wait to snap him up.
  
  Such a sensation. Was it ever just about those two incidents? Yes and no. It was, many would later say, an accident waiting to happen. And had the case gone to court, witnesses would have been called to support allegations McInnes had behaved similarly in the past, allegations he denied.
  
  Good Weekend spoke to one of those women, along with many other people on both sides of the story. She claims he’d been told a long time ago to watch out for that “danger” line. in brief, this is what is alleged to have happened, according to Fraser-Kirk’s statement of claim and defence statements made by the respondents. “Alleged”, because the case didn’t go to court, with sworn evidence, and the parties are now gagged by a strict confidentiality agreement. So it comes down to “he said/she said/they said” and the balance of probabilities. What we do know is that McInnes admitted to conduct unbecoming when the complaint was first lodged, and that DJs agreed it was, terminating his employment a week later.
  
  So, to that first incident. On May 23, David Jones held a lunch at group general manager Damien Eales’s house, celebrating the renewal of a contract with Gai Waterhouse. Fraser-Kirk was sitting next to McInnes. They were laughing and chatting. As the meal went on, she said, he encouraged her to try the dessert, saying, “It’s like a f… in the mouth.” At some point he slipped his hand under her jumper up to her bra strap, and suggested she go with him to Bondi, where he lived – the implication being it was for sex, she felt. He claimed it was for a drink, “to continue the conversation”.
  
  Fraser-Kirk said that after the lunch she told her immediate supervisor, Tahli Koch, and DJs public relations manager Anne-Maree Kelly what had happened, and that they said they’d seen his behaviour. Told of the invitation to Bondi, Kelly allegedly said she wasn’t surprised, this sort of thing had happened before; she was aware of a similar incident between McInnes and another DJs employee at a function and that she (Kelly) had had to hose it down via the employee’s mother.
  In the sort of instruction you might give to a novice bear-handler, Kelly was said to have advised, “Next time that happens, you just need to be very clear and say, ‘No, Mark’, and he’ll back off.”
  McInnes has denied having done anything unwelcome on May 23, and Anne-Maree Kelly, in David Jones’s statement of defence, would say Fraser-Kirk’s report of the CEO’s behaviour had been “light-hearted and jovial”, not a complaint. Kelly didn’t admit to having mentioned other incidents or to giving that advice. DJs also claimed that Fraser-Kirk was “witnessed engaging with [McInnes] in a flirtatious manner”.
  
  (Those defences were filed in September and October. Back in June, however, that lunch had been cited as one of the two events that precipitated McInnes’s termination.)
  The “she led him on” theme has been oft-repeated, including by McInnes. A Sydney businesswoman connected to DJs also told Good Weekend she knew people who said the young woman was “definitely flirting”. However, despite requests that these people contact Good Weekend to provide first-hand accounts, they never did. This woman, in her 50s, hadn’t met Fraser-Kirk but described her as “just another blonde bunny, number 359. When I was her age, we’d be offended if senior management didn’t flirt with us. We’d think we were ugly. I don’t think anyone’s on her side.”

  
  
  Personally i'm finding that todays society is starting to mash up both genders a bit, and nobody is taking sides, or both genders are at fault. I hit guys, they hit me back, and then it just continues and becomes a game of humour. If it hurts, i might make it known with a yelp, but i don't blame them for it. There is a limit, however, and we all need to take precautions not to go over that limit.
  
  Oh and, in terms of the discussion that women take lighter loads/easier things, i don't hesitate to go for the heavier objects. Neither would alot of my friends. Is it just my generation or what?
  
  I also get irritated when i say i'm in my school rowing team and people respond with a 'OH CAN I SEE YOUR GUNS/MUSCLES?!' No, don't expect me to have guns just because i do a so called 'manly' sport; i can still have power whether it's visible or not. Just because society thinks that because women APPEAR to be weaker, it doesn't neccessarily mean that they are, but in the past (and present) not everybody realised that and thus women are given the easier stuff. This has evolved into the way we see women in todays society and because this view has been around for so long, it's harder to break away from it.
  
  On a sidenote, hitting people isn't really sexual harrassment (unless it's hitting in private areas). It's harrassment in general, or physical abuse. Just mentioning because i and others have been using it as an example. Maybe this thread should be renamed to cover both.
• Adelynn wrote on 2010-12-06 17:46
  Here's what I mean about the crying thing: If people cry, others will probably make fun of them. However, if it's a girl crying versus a guy crying, the guy would have it worse in the "being made fun of" department.
  I personally won't cry in front of anyone because I think the same thing.
  
  What ever our (yours and mine) feelings are about crying, being over-emotional is still a female-related stereotype.If a guy cries, he's just not manly.
• Teaberry wrote on 2010-12-06 18:58

  Quote from Ailyene;238765:

  Now it's just a lot less...but there's still quite a bit there. For example, same job positions but lower pay for women etc. (office jobs mind you)

  
  Truth. Not going to debate this at all.
  
  

  Quote from Ailyene;238765:

  My guy friend told me it was pretty impossible to rape a guy.

  Completely false. Women are just as able to drug someone as men are. And when you're drugged, the "difference in strength" doesn't mean much at all.
  
  

  Quote from Ailyene;238765:

  If you have girl friends and they're hurting you a lot by hitting you, just explain to them about how you feel so they'll know. Yes, the girls are wrong for hitting you first, but it's not really right to hit people back because a fight will just break out. This applies to anyone, actually, whether it's girl VS guy or guy VS guy...or girl VS girl.

  I think you may be confused here. When we say "hitting a girl" or "hitting a guy" we mean with the intention of fighting. Little love taps don't fall under this category. If anyone punches with intent, it hurts, period. It's assault, technically, but society tends to leave guys with 2 bad options: fight back against the assailant (which is sexual harassment all of a sudden) or lie down and get abused. I'm not fond of the idea of hitting a woman, but I think I'd lean towards the first option if one picked a fight with me.
  
  

  Quote from Ailyene;238765:

  As well, I've never really encountered a situation where the guy was given heavy work to do rather than a girl who is stronger than him. In all the cases I've seen, the guy was always stronger and of course the stronger person has to do it.

  Not a serious point on my side, but when I was younger I'd have to carry about 2-3x the load of my sister (who's 12 years older than me and clearly stronger.) It was probably to instill a habit of me doing the work, but I was definitely the weakest in the family then.
  
  Don't think I have much to say about the last few points in the post... but it's worth noting that what people consider chivalry (read: a complete misconception) has to completely die out if there is to be some sort of gender equality.
• Ailyene wrote on 2010-12-06 21:43

  Quote from Teaberry;238907:

  
  I think you may be confused here. When we say "hitting a girl" or "hitting a guy" we mean with the intention of fighting. Little love taps don't fall under this category. If anyone punches with intent, it hurts, period. It's assault, technically, but society tends to leave guys with 2 bad options: fight back against the assailant (which is sexual harassment all of a sudden) or lie down and get abused. I'm not fond of the idea of hitting a woman, but I think I'd lean towards the first option if one picked a fight with me.
  

  
  
  Oh, I see. Well, I guess if you really have to defend yourself, then defend yourself. I honestly don't think the police would still blame the guy if he was the one beaten up pretty badly compared to the girl lol.
  
  And also, whoa. I've never seen a younger child have to carry more than the older one (unless they were both teens. Then it wouldn't be such a big difference). Your parents were just mean. =(
• Herro wrote on 2010-12-07 08:23

  Quote from Ailyene;239079:

  Oh, I see. Well, I guess if you really have to defend yourself, then defend yourself. I honestly don't think the police would still blame the guy if he was the one beaten up pretty badly compared to the girl lol.
  

  
  
  because that's what it takes. If the man come out of the fight even looking remotely better than the girl it's automatically his fault..
• Ailyene wrote on 2010-12-07 10:35

  Quote from Herro;239733:

  because that's what it takes. If the man come out of the fight even looking remotely better than the girl it's automatically his fault..

  
  
  I've never seen all these apparent cases of guys being blamed at all. Maybe you guys just live in a more traditional area/read bad news. Or I live in nice areas. =D
• TA wrote on 2010-12-07 11:48
  There's quite a huge disparity between the mental way people treat people on the basis of their gender. Not just at the workplace, or on the dating scene. Everywhere, even just talking to someone. Even on the internet where it's totally anonymous and there's a 99% chance you're never going to meet them anyways.
  
  People do get treated vastly different based on their gender, and it's something most people can't help even if they consciously think about it. I mean this in everything.
  
  On a different subject... If a guy were to cry, he's a wuss. If a girl cries, that's just normal, she's a girl.
  
  If a guy acts sexual, he's a pervert and should be looked down upon by society. If a girl acts sexual, everyone treats her like she's the cool ****, and nothing's wrong with it.
  
  Well, y'know what... nothing's wrong with either. People have different libido levels, regardless of gender. That's why couples with vastly different libidos end up unhappy. One person wants too much sex or one doesn't want it enough, and someone is always unhappy in those relationships. It's better when neither want it much or both want it a lot. It's healthier. But, that's a bit off topic.
  
  Fact is though, we still judge everyone based on what's between their legs. Both individually and as a society. It's mostly a subconscious thing individually, but it's terrible socially. If something's on the news about a guy hitting a girl, everyone thinks "wow, that dirty bastard should rot in hell" and if there's news about a girl hitting a guy (lol, like they'd even air it?) everyone just thinks "yeah, bastard probably deserved it."
  
  It's messed up, but I guess that's how we are.
  
  Until we all become futanari, I guess we'll have these problems for a very long time.
  
  

  Quote from Ailyene;238765:

  I can probably hit my guy friends and it wouldn't hurt them at all, but they hit me and it hurts like hell. Or maybe it just hurts them a little while for me, it hurts a ton.

  
  
  y'know... that's not true at all. If you hit someone, regardless of their gender, it's gonna hurt them. Guys that don't respond to it are just putting on an act. Yeah, it still "hurts like hell" for them too. The same nerve endings are still there. Being bigger doesn't change that.
  
  

  Quote from Ailyene;238765:

  My guy friend told me it was pretty impossible to rape a guy. o_O

  
  
  What, because "if he doesn't want it he can't get it up?" Yeah, that's bull****. If you stimulate a man's cock, whether he wants to **** or not, it's gonna get hard. The girl could be ugly as ****, it's just a natural response to a stimulus.
  
  There's also the thinking that men are stronger, so it should be impossible for a girl to overpower a man... but, that's just wrong too. People can be pretty strong, regardless of their size and gender.
  
  Heck, I've had trouble overpowering a dog a third my size.... a fourth maybe?
  
  

  Quote from Ailyene;239765:

  I've never seen all these apparent cases of guys being blamed at all. Maybe you guys just live in a more traditional area/read bad news. Or I live in nice areas. =D

  
  
  Ignorance doesn't mean it isn't happening.
• Ailyene wrote on 2010-12-07 21:08
  Me: -hits friend a couple times- Wait...are you sure it doesn't hurt you?
  Guy thinking: YEAH IT HURTS LIKE HELL.
  Guy replies on the outside: Nope, it's fine. =)
  
  Round up your fellow men and tell them to stop this. Then maybe things will get better.
  
  Also, I never said it wasn't happening. I was suggesting that since I have not seen this, I cannot quite believe that apparently the guy is blamed most of the time. Logically it makes no sense that he would unless he appears to be much less beaten up than the girl. If this is really true, go blame your law enforcement and government.
• Kueh wrote on 2010-12-07 21:13

  Quote from Ailyene;240067:

  Surely not by sitting around doing nothing.

  
  
  Is this thread nothing then?
  
  As I read it, this thread is not saying women are not discriminated against. It exists to dispel the myth that no men are discriminated against.