"God" and Religion.

• Juno wrote on 2010-05-04 04:50

  Quote from bradstrt:

  Learning about people's beliefs and trying to understand them only leads to a closer relationship. Shouldn't members of Guru at least understand each other?

  
  
  An ambiguous "debate" which is opened essentially by the poster saying "I don't understand these people" is not an environment conducive to learning. If someone wants to know something about Christianity, which I am familiar with, I'd be happy to help them but that's not really a debate. For example, I could show Kitaek where in Exodus his question about the people who never hear about Jesus is answered...but there's little point to trying to do so in this setting especially since he could in theory be referring to any religion. I've been down this road before and gone through all the 'contradictions'. Before I lost my hard drive I even had a collection of websites that were often quoted so I could answer questions before they were asked. The problem is it does no good under the premise of debate.
  
  Endless Dream's video does a fairly good job of explaining it.
  
  P.S. The level of hostility is influenced by perception. While some are comfortable, others are not.
• Phunkie wrote on 2010-05-04 05:08
  Sometimes I think Satan is just as powerful as the Christian God. Not any more, not any less.
  
  That's why they co-exist so perfectly.
  
  Good and evil.
  
  
  With that said, if there is a God, I don't think the God of the Bible is the same guy as whoever is out there.
  
  The Christian God is an angry fool.
• Cucurbita wrote on 2010-05-04 05:13

  Quote from Phunkie;27916:

  Sometimes I think Satan is just as powerful as the Christian God. Not any more, not any less.
  
  That's why they co-exist so perfectly.
  
  Good and evil.
  
  
  With that said, if there is a God, I don't think the God of the Bible is the same guy as whoever is out there.
  
  The Christian God is an angry fool.

  
  
  Yin and Yang, or natural balanced order keeping the world from chaos, is a recurring theme in ALL religions.
• Phunkie wrote on 2010-05-04 05:18

  Quote from kitaek27;27921:

  Yin and Yang, or natural balanced order keeping the world from chaos, is a recurring theme in ALL religions.

  
  
  I know. It's just that Christians make it seem like God is superior to Satan in each and every way.
  
  I like to think that there is a balance between both of them.
• Kazuni wrote on 2010-05-04 05:23
  Oh oh oh. I thought of something else.
  
  Heaven and hell is black and white. They're complete opposites, evil and good.
  
  What is your definition of evil?
  
  There is no yes no answer to whether someone should go to hell. Nobody has the right to judge someone based on their actions (which, as you all probably know, are heavily influenced by environment and other factors), which they were not completely responsible for. Nobody goes out randomly and kills someone. There is a reason. You cannot judge someone solely on the fact that they committed what is considered a "sin". No, I don't believe anyone has the right, or reason, or any sort of excuse to decide someone's afterlife (not saying I believe that there is one). Even if God created humankind, it doesn't mean he has the right either to decide this. We are not toys that an owner can decide the fate of, humans have consciousness, reason, and feelings.
  
  This fact pisses me off a lot. Hardcore christian friends (I still consider them friends, even with this sometimes happening) constantly tell people that they're going to hell because they don't believe. They tell us to convert while we still have the chance and God "may forgive us". Apparently, we're committing great sins by not worshiping their God. What also steps on a nerve is the homosexuality, bisexuality, incest, and all that, argument. The whole, "born with it or not" argument that I'm starting to hate now.
  
  What I'm getting at. Nobody has the right to decide the afterlife, nobody has the right to judge sins or what sins even are. There is no fixed definition for sin, like there is no fixed definition for moral. It's all inside your head, and what each person thinks. Even if God was the creator, he shouldn't be the one to decide what happens after creation.
  
  My opinion.
• Phunkie wrote on 2010-05-04 05:27

  Quote from Kazuni;27930:

  Even if God was the creator, he shouldn't be the one to decide what happens after creation.
  
  My opinion.

  
  
  Just like a parent can't make choices for his or her kid always. There comes that time where your child isn't a child anymore.
  
  Gotta let them make their own choices and guide them along the way.
  
  But without condemning them.
  
  
  God says, listen to me or I will send you to hell.
  
  He doesn't offer advice or suggestions. He says, "This or that. Pick."
• Kazuni wrote on 2010-05-04 05:29

  Quote from Phunkie;27934:

  Just like a parent can't make choices for his or her kid always. There comes that time where your child isn't a child anymore.
  
  Gotta let them make their own choices and guide them along the way.
  
  But without condemning them.
  
  
  God says, listen to me or I will send you to hell.
  
  He doesn't offer advice or suggestions. He says, "This or that. Pick."

  
  
  Yeah, it's too "yes or no" for me.
• Virtue wrote on 2010-05-04 14:52

  Quote from Saani;27845:

  I WAS WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO BRING UP MAN.
  Who wrote the Bible? Uh, man did. Even if it were all TRUE, who makes mistakes? MAN DOES. HUGE mistakes.
  Man, man, man. Hai2u, I could go write a big book right now, and my friends could go write some big books right now, and we could put it together and make a Bible. That makes it all true, right? Right?

  
  Wrong.
  
  You ask what authority that the Old Testament relies upon.
  
  The authority of Divine Inspiration.
  
  You may ask yourself "Are they the unenumerated teachings of Jesus or just messages from the Holy Spirit passed on to the disciples?"
  The latter would be a much better definition.
  
  To concentrate on certain parts of the Bible to the exclusion of others is unbalanced and dangerous. "All Scripture is God-breathed" (2 Timothy 3:16).
  
  The Epistles, for example, were written to instruct us on the practical outworking of Jesus' teaching and are just as inspired as Jesus' own words.
  
  I know your logical reply would be "But Men define the scripture- they've evicted and included multiple texts at various times throughout history."
  
  When God originally inspired men to write His Word, it was God-breathed and inerrant (2 Timothy 3:16-17; John 17:17). The Bible nowhere applies this to copies of the original manuscripts. As meticulous as scribes were with the replication of the Scriptures, no one is perfect. As a result, minor differences arose in the various copies of the Scriptures. Of all of the thousands of Greek and Hebrew manuscripts that are in existence, no two were identical until the printing press was invented in the 1500s A.D.
  
  However, any unbiased document scholar will agree that the Bible has been remarkably preserved over the centuries. Copies of the Bible dating to the 14th century A.D. are nearly identical in content to copies from the 3rd century A.D. When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, scholars were shocked to see how similar they were to other ancient copies of the Old Testament, even though the Dead Sea Scrolls were hundreds of years older than anything previously discovered. Even many hardened skeptics and critics of the Bible admit that the Bible has been transmitted over the centuries far more accurately than any other ancient document.
  
  There is absolutely no evidence that the Bible has been revised, edited, or tampered with in any systematic manner. The sheer volume of Biblical manuscripts makes it simple to recognize any attempts to distort God's Word. There is no major doctrine of the Bible that is put in doubt as a result of the minor differences that exist between manuscripts.
  
  Again, the question, can we trust the Bible? Absolutely! God has preserved His Word despite the unintentional failings and intentional attacks of human beings. We can have utmost confidence that the Bible we have today is the same Bible that was originally written. The Bible is God's Word, and we can trust it (2 Timothy 3:16; Matthew 5:18).
  
  

  There is no evidence

  
  You seek evidence because you refuse to have faith.
  You seek proof because you don't want to have faith.
  You seek logic because you think the rules of this world will apply after death.
  
  But without faith, it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6).
  
  "According to your faith will it be done to you" (Matthew 9:29).
  
  "He said to her, 'Daughter, your faith has healed you'" (Mark 5:34).
  
  "Your faith has healed you" (Mark 10:52).
  
  "'Have faith in God', Jesus answered" (Mark 11:22).
  
  "Jesus said to the woman, 'Your faith has saved you; go in peace'" (Luke 7:50).
  
  You expect to find God without faith, but I tell you that IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.
  
  "And He did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith" (Matthew 13:58).
  
  "Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; He rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen Him after He had risen" (Mark 16:14).
  
  And finally, to the people who say something like
  

  God is evil for putting mankind in situations which he knows will end in them doing things he doesn't want them to do, and then get all pissy about it.

  
  Would you rather be a mindless robot who had no other choice but to obey God?
  
  God doesn't want robots who are programmed to obey Him, because that's not love.
  
  I repeat. Love is God's objective. He is love (1 John 4:8).
  
  Without giving us a choice, there is no love.
  
  It is not God's fault.
• Justified wrote on 2010-05-04 15:37
  So many of the atheist posts are making me shake my head, and I'm barely religious at all.
  
  Instead of typing something out and probably offending somebody, I'll just post a link.
  10 Things Christians and Atheists Can (And Must) Agree On | Cracked.com
  
  The least an atheist can do, is not slam on religion without doing a little bit of research first.
  Like saying how religion is bad because the Christians at school are shoving the Bible in people's faces.
  Yet it is not taught to force religion on to others. You have a problem with a jerk, not with religion. (Point 8 on that article)
• Virtue wrote on 2010-05-04 16:04

  Quote from Justified;28083:

  Yet it is not taught to force religion on to others.

  
  I'm tired of "shutting up". It has yielded no results. You are all sinning just as much as (if not more than) before, and I for one refuse to sit here and allow you to do it without at least explaining why it is wrong.
  
  It is the least I can do for God...After all, He did create me, put up with my sinfulness, love me, die for me, and guarantee me everlasting life.
  
  I think the least I can do is spread His message to others.
• Makisushi wrote on 2010-05-04 17:03
  Lots of tl;dr's here lol
  
  My view is kinda complicated since its like a mix of logic and religion... I'm Catholic but my belief is more of the Intelligent Design concept (wiki it)
  
  I believe in God because I don't think that the Earth is habitable and life exists just because the universe rolled a dice and mostly everything happened "by chance" like what science says... Like Earth's optimal distance from the Sun, the functions of the Human brain and stuff like that...
  
  I also don't believe in evolution and natural selection because if it was true, why are there still creatures inferior to Humans? Example.. If we are so great that we evolved from apes and that we were selected to evolve, why are there still monkeys? why didn't THEY evolve lol...
  
  I dislike people forcing religion on others though... Bible teaches us to respect other people's beliefs...
  
  There's also this thing about "Worship me or else" thing going on with atheists XD Who the crap spread that? Extremists religious probably... Us with religion aren't actually forced to worship, sing, bow, kneel or stuff like that. We do it because we want to... Its kinda more like "Your evil actions will have consequences. Don't tell me I didn't warn you. Be good and you'll be alright, even without all the rituals" :XD:
  
  Rapists, kidnappers and the like exist because God is not the only one with power. There's this dude in hell who opposes God and influences people's lives pretty much the way God does. But its not those mystical "Bend to my will, be evil" kinda things... You are just presented with options, lots of them.. Not just yes or no.. (I still wonder though, why aren't all people who do not believe in hell become rapists, killers, thugs and evil doers. If God doesn't exist, then satan doesn't exist either, then hell is non existent. What is there to be afraid of? Cops? Shoot them down, stab them, hang them with their own intestines :thumb:)
  
  I've also encountered this question regarding God... If God created the world, where did He come from? Who created him?
  umm.. If the universe came from the BigBang where a chunk of mass exploded, where the heck did that ball of matter come from @_@
  
  Also, a message to anyone who says they hate God and does not believe in Him.. You're funny. How can you hate something you do not believe exists? :what:
  
  Some people do not believe in God nor miracles because they haven't seen Him nor his work right before their eyes.... I believe because I have faith.. What is faith? It is the substance if things hoped for.. It is the evidence of things not seen :bye:
  
  EDIT: I forgot to add my view of the Bible. I don't think the bible is perfect in its current form. Maybe it was when it was first written with Divine Inspiration but things get lost in the translation and I believe that a lot of things in the bible are symbolical. Like the seven "days" in which the world was created. The word "day" in old, and sometimes in modern, english could mean any point in time. Could be literal day, could be a set of thousands of year.. could be millions. It could even coincide with the scientific chronological order of things if calculated properly... Some of them could also be literal, like Jonah seeing the bottom of the ocean and describing it as a vast land with a lot of valleys and mountains and deep canyons. Pretty close to what it really is if you think about it. How did he know that millions of years before SONAR or submarines? hmmm..
  
  tl;dr?
  My belief: Religion and Science are NOT two different stories. Their just two different books telling the same story from different points of view.
• Phunkie wrote on 2010-05-04 17:22
  I like the people, not the religion. But I also don't like the crazy religious people.
  
  8D
  
  I accept religious beliefs. Just don't try to shove it down my throat.
  
  Plus, many nations have been founded upon religious beliefs and as I've said, some of those beliefs are worth keeping. Some of them are quite beautiful.
  
  But not all of them.
• Osayidan wrote on 2010-05-04 18:15
  Before my post:
  I haven't read every word of every post, but things look decent so far. Keep things civilized and it won't get closed. By all means rip each others opinions to shreds, but be respectful of the people giving said opinions.
  -------------------
  
  Here's a brief summary of what I think about religion.
  
  1) I know that the religions of today didn't just pop out of nowhere, because some mighty being said so. If you examine the history of religion based on archeological finds, you notice that religion gradually developed from more primitive rituals/worshiping. If you compare most religions they all have similar origins (excluding wacky new age stuff that thinks aliens are gods and such things that date only recently). Most of it can be traced back to people asking unanswerable questions, such as why we are here, and what happens when we die. We have no real answers and probably never will, so religion fills in the gap.
  
  2) I know that there are many different religions in the world, few of which seem to agree with each other on anything except the fact that there is a deity, and even then some religions can't agree on the number of deities. To make this even worst, some religions dispute within themselves and split off to form different versions.
  
  3) Religion is based on the assumption that we are alone in the universe. While this assumption seems more solid than assuming we are not, I still think this causes a problem. (see: drake's equation - used to estimate possible civilizations in the universe). What if some day we come to realize humans are not the only civilized life in the universe? What will happen to religion? If god created man in his image, then everything just exploded in our faces. But that isn't the only issue, what will their religious views be? Will they agree or conflict with our religions? If so which ones?
  
  4) Religion does not equal spirituality.
  
  5) Religion in general all seems to have one good point: it teaches us to live in peace with each other and ourselves. Problem: This only seems to apply to members of your own religion (these days not so much, but in our distant past religion caused wars. some parts of the world are still quite scary against people not of their religion). One can say that those wars and other problems were caused by people in positions of power making negative use of religion to gain followers, but that's just a flaw of religion, people blindly agreeing to too many things. Those who do not question what they are raised to believe in are the core of the problem. If after much questioning the answers you find lead you to believe in a god or gods then go for it. Do not accept it simply because others say it is so.
  
  
  I was raised christian, did christian-y things in school with my christian classmates. Did my communion and all that stuff. Then I started to question things. No one gave me reasonable answers. So I grew up, got out of elementary school, entered highschool as an athiest and never touched religion again. As I got older I started to ask more questions, now with access to a half decent library, and later the internet, I did my own research.
  
  I do not identify as atheist anymore. Agnostic comes closer to it.
  I do not deny the possibility that there may be a creator or creators. I do not 'believe' in the big bang as the start of all existence, however I also don't believe some guy got bored one day and decided to snap his fingers and create all that exists.
  
  What I believe is that no one has a damned clue what's going on and we can spend a million lifetimes trying to figure it out and we probably won't. Everyone needs to question the universe on their own, get their own answers based on information they can gather, and form their own ideas.
  
  Believing some god(s) just because others say they exist is ridiculous. By this logic anyone can go start up a religion, and as long as they make it interesting enough to get many followers, it works out, and one day may get as big as the major religions of today. Maybe in 2000 years half the world will be worshiping some guy they found a newspaper article about who sacrificed his life to save a baby about to be run over by a car back in 1956 (random date).
  
  The important thing is to respect yourself, those around you, and to live well. Spirituality is the ability to unify those principles and apply it without prejudice in every day life. That's what I believe in.
  
  I don't need a mighty being to tell me to live well. In fact I would go so far as to say that religion is the commercialization of spirituality, or politics with the mask of spirituality.
• Virtue wrote on 2010-05-04 18:28

  Quote from Osayidan;28137:

  In fact I would go so far as to say that religion is the commercialization of spirituality, or politics with the mask of spirituality.

  That's why Christ expects a relationship, not just a religion.
  
  Christianity is not about "following rules"...It's about loving Jesus and forming a true and real relationship with Him.
• Cannibal wrote on 2010-05-04 18:48

  Quote from Sin;28069:

  Wrong.
  
  You ask what authority that the Old Testament relies upon.
  
  The authority of Divine Inspiration.
  
  You may ask yourself "Are they the unenumerated teachings of Jesus or just messages from the Holy Spirit passed on to the disciples?"
  The latter would be a much better definition.
  
  To concentrate on certain parts of the Bible to the exclusion of others is unbalanced and dangerous. "All Scripture is God-breathed" (2 Timothy 3:16).
  
  The Epistles, for example, were written to instruct us on the practical outworking of Jesus' teaching and are just as inspired as Jesus' own words.
  
  I know your logical reply would be "But Men define the scripture- they've evicted and included multiple texts at various times throughout history."
  
  When God originally inspired men to write His Word, it was God-breathed and inerrant (2 Timothy 3:16-17; John 17:17). The Bible nowhere applies this to copies of the original manuscripts. As meticulous as scribes were with the replication of the Scriptures, no one is perfect. As a result, minor differences arose in the various copies of the Scriptures. Of all of the thousands of Greek and Hebrew manuscripts that are in existence, no two were identical until the printing press was invented in the 1500s A.D.
  
  However, any unbiased document scholar will agree that the Bible has been remarkably preserved over the centuries. Copies of the Bible dating to the 14th century A.D. are nearly identical in content to copies from the 3rd century A.D. When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, scholars were shocked to see how similar they were to other ancient copies of the Old Testament, even though the Dead Sea Scrolls were hundreds of years older than anything previously discovered. Even many hardened skeptics and critics of the Bible admit that the Bible has been transmitted over the centuries far more accurately than any other ancient document.
  
  There is absolutely no evidence that the Bible has been revised, edited, or tampered with in any systematic manner. The sheer volume of Biblical manuscripts makes it simple to recognize any attempts to distort God's Word. There is no major doctrine of the Bible that is put in doubt as a result of the minor differences that exist between manuscripts.
  
  Again, the question, can we trust the Bible? Absolutely! God has preserved His Word despite the unintentional failings and intentional attacks of human beings. We can have utmost confidence that the Bible we have today is the same Bible that was originally written. The Bible is God's Word, and we can trust it (2 Timothy 3:16; Matthew 5:18).
  
  
  You seek evidence because you refuse to have faith.
  You seek proof because you don't want to have faith.
  You seek logic because you think the rules of this world will apply after death.
  
  But without faith, it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6).
  
  "According to your faith will it be done to you" (Matthew 9:29).
  
  "He said to her, 'Daughter, your faith has healed you'" (Mark 5:34).
  
  "Your faith has healed you" (Mark 10:52).
  
  "'Have faith in God', Jesus answered" (Mark 11:22).
  
  "Jesus said to the woman, 'Your faith has saved you; go in peace'" (Luke 7:50).
  
  You expect to find God without faith, but I tell you that IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.
  
  "And He did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith" (Matthew 13:58).
  
  "Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; He rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen Him after He had risen" (Mark 16:14).
  
  And finally, to the people who say something like
  
  Would you rather be a mindless robot who had no other choice but to obey God?
  
  God doesn't want robots who are programmed to obey Him, because that's not love.
  
  I repeat. Love is God's objective. He is love (1 John 4:8).
  
  Without giving us a choice, there is no love.
  
  It is not God's fault.

  
  
  I never said it was tampered with, or changed, or anything like that. I said it was written by man, was it not? Regardless of whether or not "God" said what should be there, it was man who set it in stone, huh?