Kaldo wrote on 2010-05-05 09:45
According to my latin teacher (he's like all-knowing... supposedly :3) Theologians believe that those who are bad, they go to hell, those who are theists and are good go to heaven, and then theres limbo for those who are good their whole lives, but are atheist, or babies who die unbaptised (this is like, medieval, not talking about now lol). These theologians claim that god's probably merciful, so he just sends them to heaven anyways. Soooo... Imma just carry on be a good atheist :lol:
Virtue wrote on 2010-05-05 12:35
Quote from EndlessDreams;28270:
The part of divine inspiration on a religious book isn't exactly original. Most religious book does this, and claim it was divinely inspired.
Do they have the same unity of scripture like the Bible does? I think not.
Quote from EndlessDreams;28275:
Your senses can be wrong. Two people can interpret the same thing differently. Just because the Sky is Blue to you doesn't mean it is actually blue. We will never know the real color of the sky.
Eh, incorrect. Everyone sees the sky in the same colour, we just call that colour blue. Read up on Optics.
Quote from Zephyri;28281:
The Bible: Why Some Ancient Texts Were Excluded
This is a short and good read related to the topic. I'm going to keep my own opinions out of it as someone else has pretty much hit the nail on the head as far as my own thoughts, but I will say, please continue to keep things civil and take nothing personally.
Yes.
Also, New Testament scholar Norman Geisler writes, "The Gnostic writings were not written by the apostles, but by men in the second century (and later) pretending to use apostolic authority to advance their own teachings. Today we call this fraud and forgery."
Quote from Moppy;28406:
I believe in God, but I have a distase for him.
O.o
My beliefs are weird to explain but it's something along the lines of God creating our world for his entertainment then ignoring us as he got bored...
So bascially, God is like a toddler with a new toy.
That has the name deism, Zeph.
Quote from emomutt;28662:
christian > athiest > catholic > satanist > Julianism
long story short about julianism is people started worshiping me and i ended up being forced to make my own church
Ignorance. Not every Christian is Catholic, while every Catholic is Christian.
---
Not even going to bother replying to NewbieNub's post because that reeks of ignorance and generalisations. Come back when your view is less narrow and you grow up. I would grow exceedingly tired of his style of conversation that we would be having.
[SIZE="3"]Also, about God's unconditional love. I will explain using an example.[/SIZE]
If you hate God, scorn His Name and burn the Bible, destroy His worshipers, you would probably think He must love you, for that is what unconditional love is. It's a little different.
God is able to love and hate at the same time.
The difference between us and God in regard to loving and hating is vast. Even as Christians, we remain imperfect in our humanity and cannot love perfectly, nor can we hate perfectly (in other words, without malice).
But God can do both of these perfectly, because He is God. God can hate without any sinful intent. Therefore, He can hate the sin and the sinner in a perfectly holy way and still be willing to lovingly forgive at the moment of that sinner's repentance and faith (Malachi 1:3; Revelation 2:6; 2 Peter 3:9).
Phunkie wrote on 2010-05-05 12:47
You know, the part I don't get about religion is how people say they know God.
How do you really know God?
Is reading the Bible the only the proof you need to know God?
'Cause to me, that wouldn't be God, that's a description of him. Nothing more, nothing less.
And then there's people who say they feel God.
How do you feel God?
NewbieNub wrote on 2010-05-05 13:17
Quote from Sin;28840:
Do they have the same unity of scripture like the Bible does? I think not.
Eh, incorrect. Everyone sees the sky in the same colour, we just call that colour blue. Read up on Optics.
Yes.
Also, New Testament scholar Norman Geisler writes, "The Gnostic writings were not written by the apostles, but by men in the second century (and later) pretending to use apostolic authority to advance their own teachings. Today we call this fraud and forgery."
That has the name deism, Zeph.
Ignorance. Not every Christian is Catholic, while every Catholic is Christian.
---
Not even going to bother replying to NewbieNub's post because that reeks of ignorance and generalisations. Come back when your view is less narrow and you grow up. I would grow exceedingly tired of his style of conversation that we would be having.
[SIZE="3"]Also, about God's unconditional love. I will explain using an example.[/SIZE]
If you hate God, scorn His Name and burn the Bible, destroy His worshipers, you would probably think He must love you, for that is what unconditional love is. It's a little different.
God is able to love and hate at the same time.
The difference between us and God in regard to loving and hating is vast. Even as Christians, we remain imperfect in our humanity and cannot love perfectly, nor can we hate perfectly (in other words, without malice).
But God can do both of these perfectly, because He is God. God can hate without any sinful intent. Therefore, He can hate the sin and the sinner in a perfectly holy way and still be willing to lovingly forgive at the moment of that sinner's repentance and faith (Malachi 1:3; Revelation 2:6; 2 Peter 3:9).
Ignorant because you could not come up with a perfect counter to what George Carlin had once placed up on stage with people cheering him on, or ignorant because I do not share the same view as you?
See? This is why the topic on religion is always locked, because religious people just REFUSES to stare out of the box at one point of time.
I wouldn't say god didn't exist, I couldn't prove to the world that he doesn't exist. But how can you prove to me that god exists?
With miracles stated in the bible? I don't think so.
And if he's all almighty and powerful, why doesn't he just FIX EVERYTHING? He wants us to fix it instead?
You know what? You're making it sound as if god is a NEXON GM. He just doesn't care ANYTHING other than to hate and love people, perhaps some random mass banning (Deaths) when demanded.
Which comes to George Carlin's second point:
God is either ignorant, or he doesn't gives a damn about what happens here.
Hell, if he DOES give even the tiniest damn about what's happening on Earth, he would have fixed it AGES ago. We wouldn't have global warming, we wouldn't have wars, we wouldn't have people doing drugs, we wouldn't have ANYTHING that would cause us pain and harm.
You're obviously not OLD enough to realized how screwed up this world is. Just look about you. Seriously. This is definetly not the work of a superior being.
But, even so, I wouldn't say god doesn't exist. I would say it's more like if Earth is a MMORPG server, the game company just stopped providing services for it.
[video=youtube;YzEs2nj7iZM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzEs2nj7iZM[/video]
Here you go, another video.
Virtue wrote on 2010-05-05 13:46
Quote from NewbieNub;28856:
Ignorant because you could not come up with a perfect counter to what George Carlin had once placed up on stage with people cheering him on, or ignorant because I do not share the same view as you?
I don't speak to children who come in a serious thread and try to be funny saying stuff like this:
Quote from NewbieNub:
- If you don't believe in whatever I've just typed, I'll kill you.
You lose all credibility saying things like this.
Quote from NewbieNub;28856:
See? This is why the topic on religion is always locked, because religious people just REFUSES to stare out of the box at one point of time.
Irony to the max.
Quote from NewbieNub;28856:
I wouldn't say god didn't exist, I couldn't prove to the world that he doesn't exist. But how can you prove to me that god exists?
Proof? Why would I need to prove or disprove that God exists? I love how you completely fulfill 1 Corinthians 1:18.
You call God ignorant and evil, when you yourself are evil.
Why is God evil? Because He exacted judgment on sinners who loved their sin and threatened to corrupt the chosen people of God?
"For the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).
"Will not the Judge of all the earth do what is right?" (Genesis 18:25).
Phunkie wrote on 2010-05-05 13:50
No one answered my question. :(
But yeah, how do you know God exists? Why do you need to prove him to me? Because I am not sure that he is there.
Just like a little kid asks his parents if Santa Claus is real. He wants to believe, but nothing inclines him to believe, besides his imagination and his curiosity.
You know, when I woke up this morning, I felt fantastic and really optimistic about this bright day. It wasn't raining for once!
I could easily say that as soon as I woke up, I felt God. That God brought this beautiful day upon me so I could enjoy it.
Is feeling God a sort of optimism? A sort of reassurance that things are going to be okay?
Some people don't need God for that.
Athde wrote on 2010-05-05 13:52
The think I don't like about relegion is that it makes people go... too far sometimes... Nm
My 2 Things about relegion...
1. I believe it was made to explain the unexplainable , that way people would have something to pair that weird occurnce with something other than just left to wonder.
2. I just plain dont trust relegion. A new relegion pops up every hundred years or so claiming that 'they' are right and the others are wrong. It just gets annoying.
Now if a celestial being appeared in front of me all of a sudden and proved that they were... Angelical, I wouldn't mind following a relegion that they told me too.
It just goes against what I stand for to believe in something that is unable to be proven.
Phunkie wrote on 2010-05-05 14:00
Quote from Athde;28875:
Now if a celestial being appeared in front of me all of a sudden and proved that they were... Angelical, I wouldn't mind following a relegion that they told me too.
If God appeared in front of you right now, how would you know it's even God? Could very well be Satan.
If God is real, we don't know him.
Just because you read the Bible doesn't mean you can claim to know God.
The Bible was written by Man. It is (at best) one of the many possible descriptions of God and his rules.
NewbieNub wrote on 2010-05-05 16:23
Quote from Sin;28868:
I don't speak to children who come in a serious thread and try to be funny saying stuff like this:
You lose all credibility saying things like this.
Far beyond your thinking plane, I've just shown you how most religions would act like.
What? You don't BELIEVE in MY GOD? I'll kill you for that.
Quote from Sin;28868:
Irony to the max.
Not quite, you're just proving my point per quote you use off me.
Quote from Sin;28868:
Proof? Why would I need to prove or disprove that God exists? I love how you completely fulfill 1 Corinthians 1:18.
You call God ignorant and evil, when you yourself are evil.
Why is God evil? Because He exacted judgment on sinners who loved their sin and threatened to corrupt the chosen people of God?
"For the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).
"Will not the Judge of all the earth do what is right?" (Genesis 18:25).
Alright, so I'm evil for calling god evil?
No, I din't say he's evil, I said he didn't GIVE A DAMN about what's happening on Earth. Unless of course, you're implying that NEXON is evil, then sure, I won't mind
you assuming that I'm calling god EVIL.
So, calling god evil is wrong, what about the devil?
Perhaps, other people? Calling other people evil would deem you as politically correct? Is Osama bin Laden evil? Is George Bush a bad president? Are the murders of all "evil" people technically correct to you?
Oh, and don't get me started on the crusades.
And all the people your god has told your religion to kill because god says so.
So, god only wants evil people to be dead? Which is where I would ask you, what is evil. Is evil, someone who calls YOUR god evil? Or is evil something else? Make up your mind.
Thy shall not kill someone unless he or she doesn't believes in the same invisible man as I do, so totally true.
Using Umineko as an example, one can't prove to me that god exist unless of course, you have ample proof that he DOES exist. It's pretty much the same logic as a black box with something in it. I could claim that there's a cat in it, but you'll never know if it's true until I open the box.
On the other hand, if you can show me that god exists, applying the logic of the devil's proof, I can't deny that god doesn't exist. But if you can't prove to me that god exists, I can use all means to deny his existance since you can't prove anything without proof.
One can't see god without love?
I guess that's true.
Just to keep whatever I've typed ever since the start, short.
I'm not telling you NOT to believe in your god. To me, believing in something is your choice. Religion does have its own good points like teaching people not to do bad and stuffs, but don't you think that forcing someone else to believe in your own god is a little selfish?
Besides, I'm barely even trying to go aggressive here and you're already in an overly protective, paranoid mode. If there's a troll here (
I know someone on my MSN who would LOVE to troll the hell out of you on the religion topic because he's really knowledgable in that) this would be his or her field day, seriously.
Makisushi wrote on 2010-05-05 16:57
Lots of talk here about what evil is and that God doesn't care that's why there is evil. Here's a nice story as a rebuttal :3 Sorry if its a bit long, its a nice read~
A science professor began his school year with a lecture to the students, "Let me explain
the problem science has with religion." The atheist professor of philosophy paused before
his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.
"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
"Yes sir," the student said .
"So you believe in God?"
"Absolutely."
"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good."
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
"Are you good or evil?"
"The Bible says I'm evil."
The professor grinned knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considered for a moment. "Here's
one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can
do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"
"Yes sir, I would."
"So you're good...!"
"I wouldn't say that."
"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us
would if we could. But God doesn't." The student did not answer, so the professor
continued. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even
though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer
that one?"
The student remained silent.
"No, you can't, can you?" the professor asked. He took a sip of water from a glass on
his desk to give the student time to relax.
"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"
"Er...yes," the student says.
"Is Satan good?"
The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."
"Then where does Satan come from?"
The student faltered. "From God"
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son... Is there evil in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"
"Yes"
"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God
created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define
who we are, then God is evil."
Again, the student has no answer.
"Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they
exist in this world?"
The student squirmed on his feet. "Yes."
"So who created them?"
The student did not answer again, so the professor repeated his question. "Who created
them?"
There was still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer broke away to pace in front of the
classroom. The class was mesmerized. "Tell me," he continued onto another student.
"Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"
The student's voice betrayed him and cracked. "Yes, professor, I do."
The old man stopped pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and
observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"
"No sir. I've never seen Him."
"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"
"No, sir, I have not."
"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever
had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"Yet you still believe in him?"
"Yes."
"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says
your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"
"Nothing," the student replied. "I only have my faith."
"Yes, faith," the professor repeated. "And that is the problem science has with God.
There is no evidence, only faith."
At the back of the room another student stood quietly for a moment before asking a
question of His own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"
"Yes," the professor replies.. "There's heat."
"And is there such a thing as cold?"
"Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No sir, there isn't."
The professor turned to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly
became very quiet. The student began to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even
more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no
heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below
zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such
thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees.
Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and
heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F)
is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe
the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units
because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of
it." Silence enveloped the room. A pen dropped somewhere in the classroom, sounding
like a hammer!
"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"
"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"
"You're wrong again, sir Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something.
You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have
no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the
meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would
be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"
The professor began to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good
semester. "So what point are you making, young man?"
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with,
and so your conclusion must also be flawed."
The professor's face could not hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain
how?"
"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that
there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the
concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even
explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less
fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant
of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite
of life, just the absence of it. Now tell me, professor.. Do you teach your students
that they evolved from a monkey?"
"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course
I do."
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?" The professor began to
shake his head, still smiling, as he realized where the argument was going. A very
good semester, indeed. "Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at
work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not
teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?" The class
was in an uproar. The student remained silent until the commotion had subsided. "To
continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an
example of what I mean."
The student looked around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen
the professor's brain?" The classroom broke into laughter. "Is there anyone here who
has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt
the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the
established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that
you have no brain, with all due respect, sir. So if science says you have no brain,
how can we trust your lectures, sir?"
Now the room was silent. The professor stared at the student, his face unreadable.
Finally, after what seemed like an eternity, the old man answered. "I guess you'll
have to take them on faith."
"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the
student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"
Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday.
It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of
crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else
but evil."
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not
exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and
cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not
create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love
present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the
darkness that comes when there is no light."
The professor sat down.