What would you change about Mabinogi?

• Oizen wrote on 2011-01-13 19:54

  Quote from Kaeporo;289000:

  lolno. Archers need to invest a decent amount AP into ranged skills, a massive amount of time and gold into life skills, a massive amount of gold for damage/critical enchanted gear and we're always prone to missing attacks.
  
  The only thing that should be nerfed is Summon Golem.

  
  
  So Some one invests lots of AP and money into training ranged and thats fine...
  
  And some one invests time and ap into training golem(yes it takes more time), but they deserve a nerf?
  Lets see here...
  Stone golems: 5-20k per stack
  Forest golems 20-30k per stack
  Sulfur golems: 40-70k per stack
  Snow golems: 50-100k per stack
  Magic golems: 100k-200k per stack
  +time spent training Summon Golem skill
  +the time spent training the hardest skill to train, Alchemy Mastery (with out it golems are a joke)
  
  I'm just going to guess you're one of those people who are extremely biased for what they abuse.
• Yanm wrote on 2011-01-13 20:49

  Quote from OizenX;289097:

  So Some one invests lots of AP and money into training ranged and thats fine...
  
  And some one invests time and ap into training golem(yes it takes more time), but they deserve a nerf?
  Lets see here...
  Stone golems: 5-20k per stack
  Forest golems 20-30k per stack
  Sulfur golems: 40-70k per stack
  Snow golems: 50-100k per stack
  Magic golems: 100k-200k per stack
  +time spent training Summon Golem skill
  +the time spent training the hardest skill to train, Alchemy Mastery (with out it golems are a joke)
  
  I'm just going to guess you're one of those people who are extremely biased for what they abuse.

  
  
  Well, the reason why people want the golem's nerfed is that someone who has a high level ego, the best enchants and everything, is only barely stronger than a Golem, especially in g13. Someone who just started the game can go pure alchemist, get r1 mastery and golem, and have end-game melee damage. Of course, that's nowhere near EASY, but it's much easier than getting to end-game ttl, getting all of those enchants, a very strong ego, etc. I wouldn't mind if it's nerfed, but not nerfed TOO much. Like...how should I say this, maybe make the golems weaker than end-game players by 15-20%, but stronger than the average melee player? This way, end-game meleers will know that, "Hmmm, I guess I'll use some golems here. They aren't as powerful as I am, but they can get the job done."
• Cide wrote on 2011-01-13 21:01

  Quote from OizenX;289097:

  So Some one invests lots of AP and money into training ranged and thats fine...
  
  And some one invests time and ap into training golem(yes it takes more time), but they deserve a nerf?
  Lets see here...
  Stone golems: 5-20k per stack
  Forest golems 20-30k per stack
  Sulfur golems: 40-70k per stack
  Snow golems: 50-100k per stack
  Magic golems: 100k-200k per stack
  +time spent training Summon Golem skill
  +the time spent training the hardest skill to train, Alchemy Mastery (with out it golems are a joke)
  
  I'm just going to guess you're one of those people who are extremely biased for what they abuse.

  
  
  blacksmithing would like a word with you.
• Fyois wrote on 2011-01-13 21:18

  Quote from Yanm;289158:

  Well, the reason why people want the golem's nerfed is that someone who has a high level ego, the best enchants and everything, is only barely stronger than a Golem, especially in g13. Someone who just started the game can go pure alchemist, get r1 mastery and golem, and have end-game melee damage. Of course, that's nowhere near EASY, but it's much easier than getting to end-game ttl, getting all of those enchants, a very strong ego, etc. I wouldn't mind if it's nerfed, but not nerfed TOO much. Like...how should I say this, maybe make the golems weaker than end-game players by 15-20%, but stronger than the average melee player? This way, end-game meleers will know that, "Hmmm, I guess I'll use some golems here. They aren't as powerful as I am, but they can get the job done."

  
  
  I don't really agree with nerfing a skill because it's comparable to "end game". End Game is an abstract term and manipulating golems is fun. Why remove a skill's usefulness? It's definitely one of the harder paths to follow seeing as Alchemy mastery is just pure insanity, especially at the low ranks.
• Cryosite wrote on 2011-01-13 21:20

  Quote from Kaeporo;289000:

  lolno. Archers need to invest a decent amount AP into ranged skills, a massive amount of time and gold into life skills, a massive amount of gold for damage/critical enchanted gear and we're always prone to missing attacks.
  
  The only thing that should be nerfed is Summon Golem.

  
  
  People are spazzing about summon golem. Mostly people who haven't used it personally. It's fine the way it is.
• Claudia wrote on 2011-01-13 21:58
  An earlier point said r1 Blacksmithing should be able to repair items, and r1 Tailors should be able to repair as well.
  
  Seriously agree there. :>
• Zeo wrote on 2011-01-13 22:13

  Quote from Cryosite;289208:

  People are spazzing about summon golem. Mostly people who haven't used it personally. It's fine the way it is.

  
  
  This, plus... there's chance that your user could get attacked while controlling a golem, making him/her loses the control on golem.
  
  Plus... golems make good alternative to Melee skills for us mages who didn't specialize in melee as well.
• Iyasenu wrote on 2011-01-13 22:17
  Why bother nerfing one thing just so something else isn't as comparably weak.
  You could always just buff something to catch up to something else.
  
  
  But I do wish there were PTJs that trained BS and Tailoring. Past rank 9 as far as tailoring goes.
  
  
  *cough*whiteherbsonG14farms*cough*
• Yanm wrote on 2011-01-13 22:58

  Quote from Fyois;289207:

  I don't really agree with nerfing a skill because it's comparable to "end game". End Game is an abstract term and manipulating golems is fun. Why remove a skill's usefulness? It's definitely one of the harder paths to follow seeing as Alchemy mastery is just pure insanity, especially at the low ranks.

  
  
  I think I might have came off the wrong way. Mind allowing me to explain my reasoning? Read if you like, I'm open to criticism.
  
  By "end game", what I meant was when you're at the point that no other skill you rank will help your melee damage out, and the only way you can increase it is through enchants and ego's (Though some become a bit redundant, I'll just act like those upgrades aren't out). Just trying to look at it from some people's point of view, let's say you're the best warrior in Mabinogi. You have a completely maxed out ego, the very best enchants for melee damage and no one can surpass you in melee damage. Yet, you see someone with r1 Mastery, r1 golem (Note taken that neither skill is easy to rank) who does a crit smash with....let's say a Magic Golem, and the smash damage is only a FEW points off from yours. Here's the thing, that person would probably think, "I wasted all of my money on this ego, to become the best warrior there is, when someone that's barely on Adv level can nearly do as much damage as I can?!" Mostly, what I'm saying is it can make you feel like you wasted your time trying to be the best in melee, such as the golem's huge wm range( They're golems, No surprise there), that instinctive reaction(We as players can have that as well, just need to pay attention), there high protection (As I read in one thread, they can take a fireball from a ghost, or a 2 thunders before dying. No player can get that protection unless they're a giant with Wind Guard), and the high crit, though I know that I can surpass a Snow Golem's 100% crit, when it comes to Magic Golems......errrr....come back to me in one of the future generations if they have more +crit and +max enchants.
  
  I know that Golem's can NEVER fully replace Melee, but they're pretty good at being as strong as some of the higher ups. Then, if your favorite mission is Sliab Cuilin, you can run that often and get lots of Snow Golems for use. My example of the golem's strength would be myself and my Elf friend, xbankaiguyx. I'm no where near an endgame warrior, but in trans, I'm able to crit 4.8k on something such as a fox/raccoon, with only 1 defense. Bankai's Golem with rB Mastery and r1 Golem did a 4.5k crit smash on an adv orange grumbill. Now, those grumbills themselves aren't that strong, but they do have 17% protection, which can reduce your damage somewhat. Then there was also the time in a glowing statue, where he was bored so we told him to go solo a room. He summoned a Snow Golem and it did either a 1.3k-1.8k crit windmill on those gold mask ghosts, and some had the Unknown title.
  
  I have fun playing as a golem with my rD (Fail, I know). I'm slightly aware of how hard the skill is to rank, as my friends milked my Gnu's mana dry often looking for white herbs. I never thought that nerfing it the way I imagined would remove it's usefulness. As for my opinion on them, I personally love it when someone brings some Golems. Makes the mission a lot easier, especially with the epic windmill range. Another example is when I did Underground Waterway HM (secret mission) with my guild. It was all right at first, we ran into some trouble at times, but that was until we came to a room with like 10-15 sulfur spiders. They were instant aggro, the very second I summoned a pet, they charged right at it. Most of us were unconscious, and I was in play dead, unable to get up at all. This was the part where I really wish I brought Maalik. He's an Elf friend of mine, and not only would Hide have helped us a lot (I really need to bring more Elf's during those runs), but he has r1 mastery and golem, so the wm spamming would've made it SOO much easier.
  
  I think my arguement wasn't that good, or convincing, but this was mostly what I meant by nerfing the golem's slightly.
• Oizen wrote on 2011-01-14 03:36

  Quote from Cryosite;289208:

  People are spazzing about summon golem. Mostly people who haven't used it personally. It's fine the way it is.

  
  Most people end up loving Summon Golem, its powerful yes, but people seem to think its good at all ranks.
  
  Golems are only godly at r5+, anything lower is easily beaten with combat, and why does no one seem to take in that when you use a golem you leave yourself completely exposed to all attacks, and if you're attacked you lose control of the golem. Of course no one would ever consider that as part of the balancing.
  
  

  Quote from Yanm;289158:

  Well, the reason why people want the golem's nerfed is that someone who has a high level ego, the best enchants and everything, is only barely stronger than a Golem, especially in g13. Someone who just started the game can go pure alchemist, get r1 mastery and golem, and have end-game melee damage. Of course, that's nowhere near EASY, but it's much easier than getting to end-game ttl, getting all of those enchants, a very strong ego, etc. I wouldn't mind if it's nerfed, but not nerfed TOO much. Like...how should I say this, maybe make the golems weaker than end-game players by 15-20%, but stronger than the average melee player? This way, end-game meleers will know that, "Hmmm, I guess I'll use some golems here. They aren't as powerful as I am, but they can get the job done."

  
  If they nerf it like that, then theres no point to using the skill at all. Infact using it would be a bad thing.
  
  Anyway, Mostly I've been talking about PVP, in which golem (and most alchemy skills) are useless.
• Kueh wrote on 2011-01-14 04:39
  I think golem deserves to have some kind of incentive.
  
  If the golem was worse than your character, why would you expose yourself in order to use it?
  
  I like to change between the golem and me. It really messes AIs up.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2011-01-14 13:50

  Quote from Whyrainfalls;289826:

  I think golem deserves to have some kind of incentive.
  
  If a player with a level 40-50 spirit weapon, end-game melee enchants and maxed melee skills was worse than (or equal to) a golem, why would you use standard melee?
  
  I like to change between the golem and me. It really messes AIs up.

  
  
  Fixed.
  
  Summon Golem gives players a way to indirectly attack a large amount of opponents, dealing end-game damage despite only having invested a small amount of time, gold and AP into the two-three skills which influence it. Players can solo most advanced difficulty dungeons with a mere 300 AP investment.
  
  Compare to magic which requires players to obtain a large amount of intelligence to make up for lost damage in addition to heavy AP consumption for intermediate and advanced magic. Summon Golem and Alchemy Mastery do not even compare to the difficulty of ranking life skills for dexterity gain. Hell, they don't even compare to obtaining a level 40 spirit weapon.
  
  Summon Golem is an absolutely absurd skill and my logic is offended that you would suggest ranged combat is overpowered while summon golem was perfectly fine.
• Oizen wrote on 2011-01-14 13:57

  Quote from Kaeporo;290147:

  Fixed.
  
  Summon Golem gives players a way to indirectly attack a large amount of opponents, dealing end-game damage despite only having invested a small amount of time, gold and AP into the two-three skills which influence it. Players can solo most advanced difficulty dungeons with a mere 300 AP investment.
  
  Compare to magic which requires players to obtain a large amount of intelligence to make up for lost damage in addition to heavy AP consumption for intermediate and advanced magic. Summon Golem and Alchemy Mastery do not even compare to the difficulty of ranking life skills for dexterity gain. Hell, they don't even compare to obtaining a level 40 spirit weapon.
  
  Summon Golem is an absolutely absurd skill and my logic is offended that you would suggest ranged combat is overpowered while summon golem was perfectly fine.

  
  If you're going to keep saying "end game", please use the term correctly. kthx
  
  If you want to compare it to magic, then I all I really have to say is this, Ice Spear is cheaper then golem, and yet its an easy way for magicians to hit a lot of strong monsters at once. So is fireball, so is thunder. Though IS has a short charge time so its the most spamable.
  
  Blaze does more damage then snow golems do, and its damage matches golem after the g13 nerf.
• Tokiko wrote on 2011-01-14 13:59
  Lag.
• Koishi wrote on 2011-01-14 15:30

  Quote from OizenX;290149:

  If you're going to keep saying "end game", please use the term correctly. kthx
  
  If you want to compare it to magic, then I all I really have to say is this, Ice Spear is cheaper then golem, and yet its an easy way for magicians to hit a lot of strong monsters at once. So is fireball, so is thunder. Though IS has a short charge time so its the most spamable.
  
  Blaze does more damage then snow golems do, and its damage matches golem after the g13 nerf.

  
  
  
  No really, anybody who does NOT think golems need to be seriously, mercilessly nerfed are either too busy abusing them to care about balance, or don't know what the **** balance means.
  
  More to the point, Alchemy is a relatively broken skillset that is only limited by the lack of people willing to do the training reqs (which while hard, don't really compare to life skills, or even WM training reqs - if you can get R1 WM, you can get a decent rank AM, and R1 Golem).
  
  Golem Crystals are piss easy to make/get, you only need 300 AP to max them out (let's compare to Blaze's 600 AP while needing a ****load of INT), etc. And even if you take buying them into account (pffthaha), let's not forget that mages need to buy 3-4 100 MP stacks (or 60-100k) per dungeon, or spend time rafting for or farming herbs. Meanwhile, you get to use a shield, you get to deal endgame WM damage while not putting yourself at risk (and if you have trouble protecting yourself, you have barrier spikes), and you can summon
  
  The point is not to say that magic isn't strong, the point is that a level 350 player can be more effective than a level 3.5k player because of this skill.
  
  Golem's damage needs to be halved at minimum, or the AP costs need to be significantly heightened. Or a large cooldown (maybe one golem per Erinn day?) could suffice.
  
  As it stands, Alchemy is broken in general, and with masteries effectively neutering the only real difficulty in it (training reqs), AND making their skills stronger, it becomes exponentially more broken.