Are we too powerful?

• Fyrain wrote on 2011-01-21 05:53
  WARNING, LONG POST. Bolded is tl;dr, as well as the tl;dr at the bottom.
  We need to be nerfed. Just us, in general. From the moderate level hundred players, to those crazy level 3000 maniacs, we need to be toned down, we’re stretching the game. We’ve become superhumans, armed with ridiculous weapons, a cavalcade of pets and pots out the wazoo, taking on small armies of fomors on our own, and pwning until the day is done.
  
  Why do I say we’re stretching the game? Look at how the game is structured now, compared to the earlier generations. For example, in shadow missions, the game sends vast waves of multi-aggro monsters, with 50% protection and 20 defense, and 2000 HP just to maybe make a chink in our armour. Now, whenever we die, we can’t chalk it up to being outsmarted. We die because we’re outnumbered, or over-powered, which doesn’t happen that often.
  
  For example, take the new Theatre Mission, Fortinbras’ Expedition. Eventually, you will have waves of 20 or 30 idiot snow trolls, who don’t do anything. Even when their AI works, they simply sit there with counter on, they’re passive, they don’t do anything. Main battle strategy: run directly into the center of the mob, and spam windmill and smash to win. Now, windmill’s the key to victory, because often it’s the only way to win, being our main AoE skill when we’re spammed by 10 monsters breathing down our necks. There’s a reason it has a 10% HP cost every time you use it: it was originally meant to be an emergency escape skill, not a main method of attack. Now, if you die in that mission, it’s because you got hit with one damage after already being in deadly. We’re doing more damage to ourselves than the monsters are.
  
  And don’t even get me started on sulfur spider shadow mission.
  
  When I started playing this game, waaay back in beta, I died. A lot. And I didn’t care; sure, I maybe dropped some armour or a weapon, but a quick trip to Duncan (remember Tir Chonaill? Ciar Basic? Party quests?) would get me back on my feet. And it was good. Now, on my giant, dying is a rare occurrence, unless I take a suicidal mission. So rare, that I get frustrated whenever it happens outside a theater mission, frantically searching for my holy water to re-bless my equips because some Shadow Wizards whittled down my HP enough to kill me. And I’m annoyed, not because I’m outsmarted, but because they’re simply too powerful (or they spam firebolt, and my evade doesn’t work).
  
  A lot of the battle systems today violate, I think, the original aims of the game. When mabi was new, you’d go against opponents larger, and more powerful than you, yes, but you could still beat them, by playing smart; playing defensively. Now, when faced with larger opposition, all you need is a ridiculous amount of potions and you’re good to go, either that, or you're just plain screwed. Simply pot up, and you’ll be fine. Pots were meant to be used in an emergency, not as a crutch, that’s why they implemented potion poisoning. They were a punishment, not a requirement. Now in order to keep up with teammates in Shadow Wizard, you need stacks and stacks of stamina potions, or you’ll fall behind.
  
  And sure, we can go back to the good ol’ dungeons that showcase smart AI and interesting enemies, instead of the same set of shadow enemies over and over, except for the fact that we can anhilate any enemy that isn’t in advanced of hardmode simply by staring at it for too long. I can solo Ciar advanced hardmode, and I remember a time when in order to do so, you’d have to be hacking. (Strange that, outside of mods, there hasn’t ever been any major hacking outbreaks in this game, unless you count bots. Note that I am not saying mods are hacks. In the interest of remaining flame-free, I have no opinion on this.)
  
  These additions are changing the way we play this game, possibly for the worse. Unless you’re with close friends, teamwork doesn’t happen. No one talks in shadow missions, it’s just a grind, in our own little world, 8 single players against a computer, rather than 8 people working together. Rarely do we heal each other. Mending isn’t needed, now that we have transformations and demigod powers. Remember the last time you ate cooked food? At a campfire? With other, random people? For reasons other than the stat boosts? For fun? Hopefully, it wasn’t too long ago, but unfortunately for many of us, that is too far away to remember.
  I almost feel sorry for anyone who joins the game now. We’ve reached a state similar to that of a fighting game that’s been out for years: everyone’s a pro, with no room for the newbs. Any new player who goes into Tir Chonaill would have found, until Hamlet, a couple people, afk. No one to help them out in Ciar or Alby dungeon, shoehorned into a forbidding Shadow Wizard Basic, where they’ll be chewed up and spit out by a horde of monsters, in a party full of 8 faceless people. They might as well be playing with the computer right now.
  
  Many times, in my guild, we reminisce, long for that sense of wonder when we first entered mabinogi, for the days when dyes were 20k, for the days when skills like campfire, cooking, weaving, etc. were useful for something other than the stat boosts. It’s a game quite unlike any other, at least with regards to how we fight. Now, it seems like it’s blending into all those other MMOs, because the monsters are stupid. They became dumbed down now, though server lag has a lot to do with it. Mabinogi had one thing, for me, that no other MMO had: a FUN battle system. I wanted to fight, because fighting was fun. This wasn’t maplestory, where I had to fight to grind. Now, it’s becoming all too similar.
  
  Am I simply crazy? I'm not saying that nerfing everyone will be easy, nor popular, I suppose the changes I suggest are fundamental ones. Maybe a dungeon system where it's only two, maybe three people, with smarter enemies in less amounts. Something to inspire teamwork. I don't know. But G15 needs a major change from dead bodies everywhere. Can you think of anything? All I want, I guess, is the old mabinogi. The G14 private farms look like they might spice things up, community-wise. Maybe. XD
  Tl; dr: Old fart says that new stuff isn’t as cool as it can be, we need to be nerfed. Also, windmill is overused.
• Cynic wrote on 2011-01-21 05:57
  Honestly, it all depends. Playing on my new character in Mari.. I don't see how I'm considered nerf worthy. More powerful players, perhaps.. but then again, what do you think got them there? It's not as if they magically poof'd! into powerful players. Just like everyone else, they had to climb the ladder to power.
  I know of a lot of amazing players who are pretty damn powerful, yes.. but if we're talking about nerfing stuff, the chances of it also affecting beginners is pretty much dead-set.
  It's not exactly easy to think of a plan to nerf higher players without it affecting weaker players who, imo, should not need to be affected in the least.
  So unless you can calculate the perfect plan, I'm sticking with "it's fine as it is".
• Fyrain wrote on 2011-01-21 06:01
  I suppose my thread title was misleading. I'm mainly suggesting a change from the "send 120937 monsters at players, and hope that they die" mentality that prevails in shadow and theatre missions. Send less monsters, and have them be smarter. To be fair, many improvements have been made in recent mabinogi, like balancing of magic with other classes (you don't have to be filthy stinking rich to be a mage now, well, not as rich).
• User495 wrote on 2011-01-21 06:05
  I can see what you mean, but I've kinda grown to accept that
  
  Mabi's evolving really is the best way to describe it
  though I did kinda like the simple-ness of how mabi used to be
  at least now I don't have to worry about my equipment as often
  and it's possible to get what I want for the most part (items over 1mil eeeeh)
  
  the past is nice, but game wise I do somewhat prefer it over then
  main problem is finding people that aren't showoffs or hoes
  
  edit: o well smarter AIs are probably better, but smarter would also mean they gang you
  mob mentality
• Phunkie wrote on 2011-01-21 06:07
  Beautiful post.
  
  However, I have to disagree with a few of your points.
  
  People do talk in Missions/Dungeons. All the time. I personally do. When I lag and die, when someone does a WM+Crit and kills all the enemies, when we're discussing tactics or commenting on the enemies. It happens all the time.
  
  Also, we do share food. One of my friends, Teraschione/Iyasenu, is an amazing cook (R6) and we do sit to each every so often. It gives us amazing boosts too! It's definitely worth it.
  
  And potions have always been in use, emergency or not. Potion poison is only a crutch if you allow it to be; it actually increases the efficiency of using potions by a certain amount. It's really handy, especially if you're a mage.
  
  I still have fun in Mabinogi. Lots of fun. I party with tons of different people, from everywhere. And I met all these people in-game. It's hard to believe still how many good friends you can make online through a simple game.
  
  I love the game and I don't think I'm gonna be stopping anytime soon.
  
  As for nerfing things, I wouldn't like that. Mabinogi isn't as grindy as other MMORPGs out there. The variety of fighting styles, the variety of skills (used in combat and other fun ones, like Instrument), etc., etc. Sure, there are some aspects about Mabinogi that need improvement (like everything in life), but we've seen some of these over the few years that this game has been live; Giant renewal, skill renewals (Cooking, Support Shot, Throwing Attack), the upcoming daily Shadow Mission feature, etc., etc.
  
  There is still teamwork in Mabinogi. Without it, I wouldn't have been able to take down the Grim Reaper or that Castle Wall Golem many times in the last 48 hours.
• Rebel wrote on 2011-01-21 06:10
  I kind of feel the same way as you OP.
  But, considering how long mabi has been out, you just have to remember the good old days for what they were.
  The game probably wouldn't have lasted this long, and kept as much of the fanbase as it has if it didn't adapt with the players.
  Yes even in the early days there were people who would grind Ciar normal and basic etc to get level 50-60. And when Ciar adv came out they'd grind that to 70-80 before rebirth.. so it's really hard to make a game cater to everyone.
  I just do what I want on mabi, and I manage to stay interested without being hit too hard with nostalgia of the good old times when playing music in tir was actually enteraining.
  I bring my friends to mabi, and help them do thier stuff, for instance I helped my friend get his giant trans the 2nd day he played mabi, buy spamming maiz to make his statue all day the day prior. And since he's a giant the only way i can take him anywhere is with my mimic pet, and I am a human so I really have to traverse the entire continent of Iria by foot...
  It's pretty fun. lol
• Oizen wrote on 2011-01-21 06:11
  Its because back then, all we really had was combat, ranged, and magic and those skills had little to no flare at all.
  
  Now we have all these fancy attacks that do insane damage.
• Xemnas wrote on 2011-01-21 06:15
  I don't think so, as long as goblins can still kill a 1k+ player with maxed stats and equipment.
• Yogurticecream wrote on 2011-01-21 06:16
  Everything has to go through stages.
  The only thing we can hope is that it is for the better.
  
  The only thing holding us back is nostagia, which actually doesn't last when time changes.
  We have to learn to accept changes that make things better for us.
  
  We have to lose a few things in exchanges for better ones. If you can't accept it, then it's probably that your tastes don't suit the changes and maybe Mabinogi is not the place you should be in.
  
  (One thing I do think they should come up with is better long-term designs for social interaction, instead of just adding new content that people will get bored with after a while. Not sure if this is a tall task though.)
• gentrone wrote on 2011-01-21 06:16
  I agree with your ideas about the game, it's out of control now (look at boss in Golden Apple Hard, it's ridiculous). However, I don't think a nerf is the solution.
• User495 wrote on 2011-01-21 06:19

  Quote from gentrone;299009:

  I agree with your ideas about the game, it's out of control now (look at boss in Golden Apple Hard, it's ridiculous). However, I don't think a nerf is the solution.

  
  
  which then poses the question
  
  did mabi get harder, so DEVcat decide to make players stronger?
  or did players get too strong, so DEVcat decides to make Mabi harder (mob wise)
  (chicken/egg reference)
  
  the people with good friends on mabi are so lucky <-< (I mean at least ones that'd go anywhere with you)
• Rebel wrote on 2011-01-21 06:19
  Just because the skills exist, doesn't necessarily mean you have to use them.
  Nor do you have to play with the people who do.
  The reason I can return to mabi, is because I don't really feel pressured to do anything.
  I go at my own pace.
  I still haven't done G12, G11, G10, G9 on my elf, or G8 on both of my characters.
  I just ignore them until I feel like doing them.
  Hell, I just got evade like 2 weeks ago.
• gentrone wrote on 2011-01-21 06:22

  Quote from Sevian;299014:

  which then poses the question
  
  did mabi get harder, so DEVcat decide to make players stronger?
  or did players get too strong, so DEVcat decides to make Mabi harder (mob wise)
  (chicken/egg reference)
  
  the people with good friends on mabi are so lucky <-< (I mean at least ones that'd go anywhere with you)

  
  
  This. But they thought harder=more hp/def/prot
• Yogurticecream wrote on 2011-01-21 06:45
  This is my personal point of view about the more hp/def/prot vs better AI issue.
  
  Most MMORPG makers are focused on retaining player interest in the game, which is why they deliberately do all sorts of things to keep players stuck in a dungeon, stuck in a mission for longer as much as they can. They simply do not care about making things easier for you in the first place.
  
  So by making it harder with more hp/def/prot, they are just simply hoping that they will trap you in that mission for longer. And create the illusion to win still reachable, but will require more time on your part and all sorts of strategies.
  
  They will, however, almost never combine ridiculous hp/def/prot and ridiculous AI. If the barrier to win is too high, people will lose interest. This is the only time when they will care.
  
  Also, for some people, they are attracted to seemingly impossible things. Without the presence of a challenge, the game will be too boring.
  
  Having so many skills in the game is to allow people to choose how to play the game. It's the variety that's important, not the power.
  
  So, are we powerful? Yes. We want to be empowered by our choices. Are we too powerful? Probably not since we are still limited by our decisions.
  
  On the MMORPG makers side, their biggest challenge is to create and maintain the delicate illusion of winnability in the game. Ability for choices is very important when it comes to creating this illusion. Is Devcat successful? I think so. (Especially with G14 opening up new possibilities that empowers the player.)
  
  (There will be eternal conflict between the people who develop the game and people who play the game, due to incompatibility of interests. That's inevitable.)
• Deitylight wrote on 2011-01-21 06:45
  I'm going to qoute someone from mabination/nexon forums.
  "If you are a total lvl of 3k+ then you deserve to be overpowered"
  
  Edit
  I don't think nerfing us will make the game more fun or enjoyable, how about devcat just improving the AI of every single monster out there.