Golem Exp Nerf

• Fracture wrote on 2011-02-04 16:28

  Quote from Koishi;319993:

  Alchemy is not a proxy for melee. A proxy would suggest that alchemists undergo the same risks as melee players. They do not. It is not a proxy, it is a replacement. And I guess it's okay that I put in effort to rank WM, build up my STR, get enchants, only for it to be trumped by someone who put in at BEST as much, and in most cases far less than I did?

  
  
  Definitions of proxy on the Web:
  
  * a person authorized to act for another
  
  Nope, not a replacement. Quite definitely, as I said, a melee proxy. A melee fighter has much more at their disposal than a golem. An alchemist simply uses a golem for circumstances requiring melee as the golem has ranked skills and stats where the alchemist does not.
  
  
  

  
  Sulfurs are like 5, maybe Snows are 15k. Human death is 5k if you assume 3 or more deblesses, about another 1k to pot back to full health, and if solo, your run is over unless you use Nao or get an adv feather (or if in a dungeon, you risk dropping items, which can be even more expensive).

  
  
  Dunno where the hell you get your golems from, but in Ruairi they are nowhere near that cheap. Ever. As for human death, if you don't take the time to stock a couple stacks of easily-obtainable HW (at a cost of about 5 minutes, rather than any amount of gold) then that's your own fault. There's no reason you should have to buy holy water. As for 1K to pot back to full HP, really? Instead you could use, I don't know, a regenerating consumable stat like MP to heal yourself, or make HP100's for 15g a piece.
  
  If death costs matter so much to you, why do you play in a manner that makes them so much more expensive?
  
  
  

  
  Because the loss of DPS is out of proportion to the loss of risk. This is valid in the case of mages. This is not valid in the case of golem alchemists.

  
  
  You don't really seem to grasp how often golem users get beaten to death while using golems. Barriers don't help either, as they get wiped out by your own golem, leaving the alchemist once again exposed and totally unable to retaliate quickly should he be targeted and attacked. As a melee fighter, however, you are constantly able to see aggro on you and what anything you're fighting is doing, allowing you to retaliate quickly with Charge, AS or magic bolts.
• Cryosite wrote on 2011-02-04 17:03
  As mage I do higher dps than melee, and at less risk when I use thunder. It takes a very high end melee or archer to match/beat me. (it wasn't until crash shot came out that an archer could beat me at all in fact). Your asessment of a "loss" of dps for the greater safety of a mage is outright wrong.
  
  You also seem to have no clue what a proxy is.
  
  I use golems for easy content where it would be a waste of wand dura/mp pots to use intermediate magics. Since I've been locked out of my main for over 3 weeks now, I haven't had a chance to make use of fusion magics yet, but the numbers people like Justinishere are spouting off about them make me really want to try them out.
  
  Being melee isn't about just how much WMspam you can do, like a golem. A skilled melee player is far more durable than any golem due to pet swipes, mana shield, and potion usage if they are spamming WM, and as I said before can make use of assault slash or switch to non-melee skills freely. A golem can -only- smash or windmill.
  
  And, as several people have suggested: if WM is so completely powerful and easy to rank up, do it yourself. You can use it to suppliment your powerful melee by alternating your Wm with your golem's. There is -nothing- stopping you from making use of a powerful attack other than your own stubborness to not use it.
  
  You are completely enamored, no obsessed with this concept of a melee player being at risk compared to a golem being expendable. You seem to overlook the fact that the alchemist has to be nearly perfectly protected (not possible on all situations) if their golem dies in order to summon another one to replace it. Summoning a golem is a very slow loading skill. In the time the alchemist tries to summon a new golem, they could very easily end up dead by whatever killed their golem.
  
  You also seem to like completely ignoring and/or blowing off the risk of the alchemist getting hit poses. Even if defense/counter is loaded, getting hit stops whatever skill the golem was loading, and has it start moving back to the controller. Often dragging whatever it was fighting with it. It still takes a moment to get control back to the golem, then try to load another wm. Assuming whatever hit you in the first place doesn't hit you again in roughly 1 second is pretty unlikely situation.
  
  As I said before, lots of situations make the golem very hard to successfully control. A golem that has WM'd more than 9 times is very easy to kill/very hard to keep alive. and your golem dying with you surviving to summon a replacement isn't such a sure thing.
  
  Golems die far more often than mid-game melee players, unless the melee player is nub. Yet you keep trying to compare the "cost" of one golem to one player death like they happen at the same ration. Your point is invalid. Golem deaths happening can very easily equal the player dying as well, futher invalidating your point. This also means the golem user is at some risk themself.
  
  If we start including party play, then no player should ever be at risk, because combos and party tactics render all but the most brutal dungeon 100% safe.
  
  Why are all these people who have never trained and actually used golem so stuck on the idea that the skill is overpowered and in need of a nerf. Naysayers are completely willing to dismiss things like having to spend time mining sliab cuilin for stones and the like, and dismiss the training requirements of two of the hardest alchemy skills (both roughly on par with lifeskills in terms of difficulty in training) needed to achieve this power.
  
  If it is so easy and so good, then get the skill yourself. That is what everyone said about windmill back in g2-3, and tend to continue to say even today. If you're unwilling to put forth the effort to train the skill yourself, then clearly your description of it being too easy is not so believable. If you haven't tried to actually use the skill yourself in serious combat, then you clearly don't know how easymodo it really is or isn't.
  
  Golem did get it's nerf already. In KR, with clay mastery, golems were big enough to hit all the walls at once in provocation. It was literally impossible for anything to avoid the golem's wm. That was nerfed, and our golems never got that big. There was also a nerf that made fine and finest cuilin stones drop less often when mining, and the nerfs to make snow golems even more scarce would do a perfect job of making the skill more balanced. The -only- thing everyone ever mentions when describing how powerful golem summoning is are snow golems. Sulfur golems damage output is perfectly justifiable by the expense and effort of the skill, while snow golems are an expensive, but potentially useful and powerful option to bring when the situation calls for it.
  
  All these ideas of outright stupid nerfs brought up in this thread so far just show how uninformed, and outright ignorant of game balance many people who play this game really are.
  
  Get off the rocks.
• Koishi wrote on 2011-02-04 17:04

  Quote from Fracture;320068:

  
  Nope, not a replacement. Quite definitely, as I said, a melee proxy. A melee fighter has much more at their disposal than a golem. An alchemist simply uses a golem for circumstances requiring melee as the golem has ranked skills and stats where the alchemist does not

  
  
  Stop mentioning this argument. Yes, golems have less at their disposal. They don't need it. A melee fighter has more to work with because they have to stay alive. Golems are expendable WM bricks.
  
  

  Dunno where the hell you get your golems from, but in Ruairi they are nowhere near that cheap. Ever. As for human death, if you don't take the time to stock a couple stacks of easily-obtainable HW (at a cost of about 5 minutes, rather than any amount of gold) then that's your own fault. There's no reason you should have to buy holy water. As for 1K to pot back to full HP, really? Instead you could use, I don't know, a regenerating consumable stat like MP to heal yourself, or make HP100's for 15g a piece.
  
  If death costs matter so much to you, why do you play in a manner that makes them so much more expensive?

  
  
  Actually if you don't do them regularly, getting 2 stacks of HW takes 72 minutes at minimum assuming you start the PTJ at 12:00 PM, and do a Uladh and a Rano job.
  
  And I guess everyone has stacks of herbs lying around.
  
  Not to mention I often burn my MP with Mana Shield use anyway.
  
  

  You don't really seem to grasp how often golem users get beaten to death while using golems. Barriers don't help either, as they get wiped out by your own golem, leaving the alchemist once again exposed and totally unable to retaliate quickly should he be targeted and attacked. As a melee fighter, however, you are constantly able to see aggro on you and what anything you're fighting is doing, allowing you to retaliate quickly with Charge, AS or magic bolts
  

  
  
  Can't charge with dual wield unless you're a giant (and if you're using shield melee as a human, you might as well play another class because shield melee is terrible). Do you understand how Assault Slash works? No, you can't "retailate" with Assault Slash, it's a skill you use to follow up an attack. Bolts are absolutely no help if you're having to deal with multi, or even fast single.
• Cryosite wrote on 2011-02-04 17:13

  Quote from Koishi;320075:

  I'm a really bad melee player and stone golems are better at it than me

  
  
  Maybe you should ignore golems completely and focus on learning how to play melee then?
  
  Skills like assault slash are relevant because they dramatically increase the power of a melee player. If you don't understand how good assault slash is, go practice with it and stop posting on the forums til you're less newbie at melee.
  
  Bolt spells are perectly fine to retaliate against archers/other spellcaster. If you can't assault them due to no shield, then charing icebolt is a great way to stun something before it hits you. This isn't an option to a golem.
  
  You also dismiss shield melee play. Again, I'd like to suggest you learn how to actually play melee more, and not be such a newbie. A mace+kite in auxiliary set can open up the option to charge. This will, if nothing else, move you into close position near where you want to WM. Weapon switch back to duel wield, then wm. What makes charge and assault slash so potent is how fast they let you move into position compared to just running.
  
  You can also have a bow in your auxiliary slot for AR retaliation or to use magnum in situations where melee is "too risky." If you're pure melee, then you aren't mid-game or end-game melee, you're low-end newbie just starting out.
• Fracture wrote on 2011-02-04 17:18

  Quote from Cryosite;320074:

  and dismiss the training requirements of two of the hardest alchemy skills (both roughly on par with lifeskills in terms of difficulty in training) needed to achieve this power.

  
  
  AM is, yes, but not so much Clay Mastery. It's mostly just doing finishes with sand burst or training Life Drain. Either of those will rank it well enough, just like the other elemental masteries.
• Cryosite wrote on 2011-02-04 17:24

  Quote from Fracture;320084:

  AM is, yes, but not so much Clay Mastery. It's mostly just doing finishes with sand burst or training Life Drain. Either of those will rank it well enough, just like the other elemental masteries.

  
  I was referring to AM and golem summoning itself. heavy amounts of material gathering (stones and white herbs most notably).
• Koishi wrote on 2011-02-04 17:29

  Skills like assault slash are relevant because they dramatically increase the power of a melee player. If you don't understand how good assault slash is, go practice with it and stop posting on the forums til you're less newbie at melee.

  
  
  Assault Slash is nice to get distance between the mob you just WMed, and get a bit of extra time for that second WM. But the cooldown limits its usefulness, and it's hard to target the thing you want in the middle of a WM.
  
  

  Bolt spells are perectly fine to retaliate against archers/other spellcaster. If you can't assault them due to no shield, then charing icebolt is a great way to stun something before it hits you. This isn't an option to a golem.

  
  
  You stun them, and then what? You're still a long way away from them. Maybe in one-on-one play bolts are useful. Outside that? Not so much.
  
  

  You also dismiss shield melee play. Again, I'd like to suggest you learn how to actually play melee more, and not be such a newbie. A mace+kite in auxiliary set can open up the option to charge. This will, if nothing else, move you into close position near where you want to WM. Weapon switch back to duel wield, then wm. What makes charge and assault slash so potent is how fast they let you move into position compared to just running.

  
  
  I guess if you get no ping, you can switch weapons before you get retaliated against. But not everyone plays virtually lagless. Also, the problem isn't getting into WM position - pets get you there just fine. The problem is when your WM fails to drop everything and you're suddenly in the middle of a multiaggro mob.
  
  

  You can also have a bow in your auxiliary slot for AR retaliation or to use magnum in situations where melee is "too risky." If you're pure melee, then you aren't mid-game or end-game melee, you're low-end newbie just starting out.
  

  
  
  So wait, just to not be "newbie" you have to hybrid away from melee? Don't you think there's something wrong with this picture?
• Sunureu13 wrote on 2011-02-04 17:46
  I lol'd at how hard koishi is trying. Twisting words and such. Just give it up. You have mounds of evidence against your invalidated arguments, but you're still trying. This isn't a case of everyone's crazy except for you. This is a case of you're wrong, even if you're entitled to "your own opinion." An opinion isn't meant to contradict facts. What you have is a bias or even prejudice. Get over it.
• sakraycore wrote on 2011-02-04 17:55
  How does it make sense that golem users can control their golem outside out of the dungeon room? They shouldn't be able to see anything through the door.
• Sunureu13 wrote on 2011-02-04 18:00
  They become the golem, not tell them what to do from their body. If you notice, a golem controller's eyes are looking downwards when in control.
• Koishi wrote on 2011-02-04 18:28

  Quote from Sunureu13;320105:

  I lol'd at how hard koishi is trying. Twisting words and such. Just give it up. You have mounds of evidence against your invalidated arguments, but you're still trying. This isn't a case of everyone's crazy except for you. This is a case of you're wrong, even if you're entitled to "your own opinion." An opinion isn't meant to contradict facts. What you have is a bias or even prejudice. Get over it.

  
  
  The only "bias" I see is people who regularly use something that is overpowered, creating spurious arguments to imply that they are entitled to said overwhelming power, or that said power is not so overwhelming. If comparing alchemy skills to ranking life skills isn't a spurious argument, I don't know what is (at best, it can be compared to ranking Windmill 3 times, which while hard, is not a life skill, then consider that melee users had to rank Refine for balance prior to g13, and have to rank Carpentry to 1 just to get an extra +45 of precious STR).
  
  The fact that Cryosite says that "pure melee is early game melee" is a telling statement - if melee needs to alternate with other skillsets to reach mid-game in his mind, then what does that say about melee as a skillset? Magic can alternate with melee alternate, but it's generally used in emergencies. I rarely see range/melee, and those that do are more defensive melee designed to tank hits.
  
  Then there is the constant implication that "alchemy has hardships, so we deserve all that power!" Yeah. So does every other skillset. What makes alchemy's hardships so special that they justify what golems can do? I never once implied that maxing out a golem was "easy" (though you don't need to max them out to have a dominating offense relative to your level). But a golem user can get their power at relatively low levels if they work hard - the melee player still has to rank their skills even *if* they get their hands on end-game enchants.
  
  In any case, I'm sure you can forgive me for not fully taking the arguments of those who use the skill under discussion on a regular basic at face value, especially considering how defensive they got at the suggestion of any nerf to golem damage output.
• Omegatronic wrote on 2011-02-04 18:52
  I've been avoiding posting in this thread, but decided to toss in my two cents.
  
  Are Golems OP? Quite likely.
  
  Recently, I had the pleasure of having Kenero in my guild for a short time. While running a normal peaca with her, I had cause to ask myself, "Why am I here?" I quite literally wasn't needed. I was for all intents and purposes there to attract aggro. Kenero's Snow Golems (and her Shock) dominated the dungeon.
  
  But answering that question, "Why am I here?" led to the answer, "To have fun." And it was fun.
  
  Mabi isn't a competition people. If you feel some need to be better than anyone else in the dungeon, DO NOT DO DUNGEONS WITH GOLEMS. Solo the dungeon and you are guaranteed to be the best there.
  
  The purpose of a game is to have fun. Who cares if a few hundred AP will allow a new player to out damage me as long as we have fun? Seems to me this narrows the playing field, allowing the newer player to contribute to a party that contains more experienced players. As long as you have fun, and they have fun. Who cares?
  
  
  Edit: That being said. I think if a Golem Summoner cannot use dance1 while controlling their Golem they shouldn't be able to use counter attack or load a Mana Crystalization Crystal.
• Koishi wrote on 2011-02-04 18:59
  Yes...but even in that regard, for me, being in the party with a golem summoner is NOT fun. They WM, the mob is dead or near dead. At most you get to clean up afterward. For me, that is not fun. I don't get to fight. I don't get to contribute significantly to the party's success. I might as well activate rest and AFK while the golem is doing its thing.
  
  Now, the same thing can, and has been said about Windmill. But Windmill rarely gets every monster in a spawn, and on higher levels it will rarely get the crit either. You knock them out of WM range and everyone else still has several monsters to deal with, because the WMer(s) can't just stay in the same spot and launch another one.
• Omegatronic wrote on 2011-02-04 19:02

  Quote from Koishi;320141:

  Yes...but even in that regard, for me, being in the party with a golem summoner is NOT fun. They WM, the mob is dead or near dead. At most you get to clean up afterward. For me, that is not fun. I don't get to fight. I don't get to contribute significantly to the party's success. I might as well activate rest and AFK while the golem is doing its thing.

  
  
  Then don't party with Golem Summoners. Simple solution to a simple problem.
• Cryosite wrote on 2011-02-04 19:19

  Quote from Koishi;320094:

  So wait, just to not be "newbie" you have to hybrid away from melee? Don't you think there's something wrong with this picture?

  
  
  No I don't. Melee is the weakest "class" in mabi (which doesn't have classes by the way) because every other form of combat can start fighting from further away, and do the same or better damage. Range has the title for highest single target DPS, and with crash shot can do respectable area damage. Magic wins area damage and throught it DPS period. Alchemy wins for versatility, low maintenance, and still pushes out impressive damage with several of it's attacks, one of which is golem. But like all of alchemy attacks, golem and the rest have narrower individual applications.
  
  Melee is the skillset you start with by default, and is by definition -for newbies-. The only strength melee can lay claim to is in having fast reactions to opposing melee that forms the bulk of fomor AI.
  
  There are many situations where other skills perform better, and rather than try to make your limited set of skills fit every situation and be the best at it, adapt and play the rest of the game. If you refuse to embrace all the options available in mabi, then you have only yourself to blame for being so limited.