Kaeporo wrote on 2011-02-03 22:28
Alchemy has been easy-mode since it came out in G9 and future content has only made it better.
Even the nerf intended to limit the usefulness of Summon Golem released with a patch which added content that improved summoned golems over their "overpowered enough to "nerf"" status.
Whatever. Koreans are already pissed about Human ranged combat and spirit weapons being underpowered while being equally pissed about Golems being overpowered. If I know DevCat, expect another golem nerf.
Phunkie wrote on 2011-02-03 22:30
Quote from Kaeporo;319141:
Alchemy has been easy-mode since it came out in G9 and future content has only made it better.
Even the nerf intended to limit the usefulness of Summon Golem released with a patch which added content that improved summoned golems over their "overpowered enough to "nerf"" status.
Whatever. Koreans are already pissed about Human ranged combat and spirit weapons being underpowered while being equally pissed about Golems being overpowered. If I know DevCat, expect another golem nerf.
That's like nerfing Dorren's Request for the 834348th time though.
Sure. Take away the availability of Crystals from end chests and whatnot. People are still gonna complain about Golems being overpowered.
Even if it took 1000 AP to rank Summon Golem, people would find a way to complain.
Kenero wrote on 2011-02-03 22:32
Quote from Phunkie;319144:
That's like nerfing Dorren's Request for the 834348th time though.
Sure. Take away the availability of Crystals from end chests and whatnot. People are still gonna complain about Golems being overpowered.
Even if it took 1000 AP to rank Summon Golem, people would find a way to complain.
I do agree but I do wish they put more time in renewing their content. The AR nerf in g7 was before shadow missions, so there's no need for the nerf anymore.
Spirit Weapon wise, 1h is still top-game but it's just that others have been left in the dust with the g-13 updates.
The problem being, which I also repeat myself, is that new content tends to override old content so easily. So what was perfectly normal or abnormal in a previous chapter may not necessarily stay the same in the new chapter.
Koishi wrote on 2011-02-03 22:54
Quote from Sunureu13;319132:
I didn't say they needed them, that's why I stated it was a downside of golem.
If a golem doesn't need skills it doesn't have, then not having them is not a downside.
Yep, mages definitely don't need that 50 int. It's not a broken title. It's a tank title.
I'm talking about Master of Barrier Spikes, not Golem Master, but whatever.
That's at least 15k per try. 10k arat + 1.5k hw + 5k sulfur. Do you realize how much that adds up? Especially when it fails.
Okay, 7 golem stacks for 150k.
Making them yourself is easy peasy. WNWPC is dirt cheap to make. 250k BB WPC + hunting WN. 10k Spike ES + hunting stamps and putting them on 25-50k broadswords.
In what world is Burg Bear 250k? Try 500k absolute min. Spike ES 10k?
Are we playing the same game here?
50k broads are a minimum. Upwards can be 125k.
You need 7 swords on average to make 2 stamps. You need 7 stamps on average to make two spikes. Do the math.
Last time I checked, HS2 mobs got up 60% faster.
Okay, your golem takes a hit, big woop. It clears the room again right after. Also, how many things have HS2? Or you might have to kill one or two things aggroing you if that, and then you summon another.
.
See? Makes you look pretty bad too. I mained melee, had shadowhunter caliburn r1 sigged broads, WNWPC when they were still 4m (which I made myself), Conceptual Darkness 7/5 dustin (didn't have that at the same time I melee'd, but I still made it myself),
Yeah, but how much money did you spend on the dustin to make sure it didn't blow up? Caliburn has such low repair costs too.
Granted. But Koishi is complaining about damages that cannot be performed by simple Stone and Forest Golems.
Maintaining those are doable. Sulfur and Snows are not.
No, Forest and Stone golems are just "less bad". Forest Golems pump out damage like a 1.5-2k character, rather than a 4k one, with unbeatable range.
Sunureu13 wrote on 2011-02-03 23:02
Quote from Koishi;319171:
I'm talking about Master of Barrier Spikes, not Golem Master, but whatever.
You're right I was mistaken. Who needs 8 crit anyway?
Quote from Koishi;319171:
Okay, 7 golem stacks for 150k.
Still very little considering how fast golems disappear.
Quote from Koishi;319171:
In what world is Burg Bear 250k? Try 500k. Spike ES 10k?
Are we playing the same game here?
50k broads are a minimum. Upwards can be 125k.
You need 7 swords on average to make 2 stamps. You need 7 stamps on average to make two spikes. Do the math.
The same world where burgbear es drops from heavily spammed TM and from Fiodh Adv. Spike ES 95% of the time expires. Anyone who soldier gachas is almost guaranteed to get one. That's why they're so cheap.
Quote from Koishi;319171:
Okay, your golem takes a hit, big woop. It clears the room again right after. Also, how many things have HS2? Or you might have to kill one or two things aggroing you if that, and then you summon another.
If you're WMing, then you take a death, not a hit.
Quote from Koishi;319171:
Yeah, but how much money did you spend on the dustin to make sure it didn't blow up? Caliburn has such low repair costs too.
I spent nothing. I took the risk of blowing it up with two r7 ES (and then with two more when I made it refined stone). I'd much rather spent 1m on it than $35 worth of NX to keep it.
Quote from Koishi;319171:
No, Forest and Stone golems are just "less bad". Forest Golems pump out damage like a 1.5-2k character, rather than a 4k one, with unbeatable range.
Forest golems in HM are not too useful. 400 WMs and 1.2k smashes MAYBE.
Iyasenu wrote on 2011-02-03 23:11
Just buff all the other fighting methods.
Nerfing is so lame.
Koishi wrote on 2011-02-03 23:18
Quote from Sunureu13;319185:
You're right I was mistaken. Who needs 8 crit anyway?
Not mages who ignore prot with their int magics? Offensive melee is using WM mostly, so it can afford to lose 8 crit, and will cap crit against anything outside HM (basically it's like NOT having WNWPC -2 crit). Defensive melee doesn't need to crit quite as much, and they'd much rather have the +12 prot. Obviously range hates losing crit, but they play not to get hit at all.
Still very little considering how fast golems disappear.
5k a pop max, big whoop. How about melee repairs? Potions?
The same world where burgbear es drops from heavily spammed TM and from Fiodh Adv. Spike ES 95% of the time expires. Anyone who soldier gachas is almost guaranteed to get one. That's why they're so cheap.
Burg Bear drops maybe 1 out of 100 runs on Adv, and maybe 1/50 on HM. As for Spike, I'm pretty sure they go for 100k or a bit less on Alexina.
If you're WMing, then you take a death, not a hit.
Depends on how many times you WMed before you ran into a HS2 mob. Of course, you can pet swipe while you set up your next golem in the absolute worst case.
I spent nothing. I took the risk of blowing it up with two r7 ES (and then with two more when I made it refined stone). I'd much rather spent 1m on it than $35 worth of NX to keep it.
1m for a 7/5 Dustin? Seriously the ****? Those cost 3m on Alexina, and you hardly ever see them. Sorry, ridiculous luck tends to invalidate arguments.
also conceptual is rank 6.
Honestly if you're rich enough to risk blowing up 7/5 dustins willy nilly, then you're definitely rich enough to afford golem spam. Especially considering virtually no repair costs, almost no potion costs, etc.
Forest golems in HM are not to useful. 400 WMs and 1.2k smashes MAYBE.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, you know who else can hit those in HM? 1.5k meleers without super-end-game enchants.
Cryosite wrote on 2011-02-04 09:09
If you're fighting content that can be one-shot by the snow golem, then you're probably not bringing in enough loot to pay for the cost of that golem. They're already 20-30k EACH for snow golems, and when the g14 nerfs to availability comes in, expect them to skyrocket in price.
Snow golems aren't nearly as powerful as even mid-ranged melee. If things live through a melee player's wm, they can assault slash and wm again for huge damage. Last I checked, golems don't have assault slash. They're two-trick ponies. They can wm with a big area or they can smash for good damage. A melee player can do that, assault slash, charge, cast bolts, easily use pets to pet swipe, switch to range and ar, and numerous other strategies. The only reason golems are even remotely good is because they have enough damage to be useful.
In large areas, even golem's large wm radius can't cover everything. sulfer spiders tara mission is an excellant example of where golems completely fail. Those spiders will live through your golem, they will get up and run past your golem despite spamming wm as fast as you can, and they will hit you.
If you are soloing, and unless you're doing something easy like Their method, if your golem dies and/or you get hit by something and lose control of your golem, it is a downward spiral of trying to get back into control of things. Places like shadow wizard with archers and wizards spamming you it can be outright impossible to even get a wm off.
Cerberus. 'nuff said.
Golem is great in many situations, I'll give it that. But it doesn't turn mabi into easymodo at all.
As for the hardships of ranking the skill and maintaining it. Again, people keep trying to dismiss the hardships of ranking the skill while at the same time saying any total level 700 noob can do it. This simply is not the case. While the melee user is ranking their windmill, they get to fight in dungeons appropriate to their level, and spend their time training killing things that at least gran exp. The golem user has to psend their time like trainign a lifeskill, mining rocks and acquiring white herbs -somehow-. Either they have to shell out 25k+/stack to buy from other players, or they need to pay NX for an herb pig. The melee player on the other hand just needs to get a pair of gladii and prof them (easily done now).
Getting to rank 1 golem easily requires as much effort or more, and certainly way more expense than training WM to rank 1 does. Getting the top end golem takes training alchemy mastery to rank 1, which itself is impossible to do solo (mana crystalization requirements from rank 2 to 1) and also requires thousands of kills -not- using your golem. This forces the golem user to either rank up water cannon to the point where they can kill boss things with it, or acquire cp gear, or both. they also need to rank up mana crystalization which will require thousands of casts from either really patient friends, or the acquistion of an advanced magic with high ranks to get too.
Then toss in clay mastery, which itself is a lot of tedium as well.
But by comparison, a mid-level melee person needs a) wm, b)combat mastery, c)crit. Of those only WM is even remotely hard to train, and becomes ridiculously easy with cp gear. Tossing in good weapons, more skills, and even mid-level damage enchants makes that player very flexibile, and powerful in far more situations than the golem can be in. and all of that can be done 100% solo, with no help from anyone else.
Golem: 200ap, approximately 12k kills, couple million spent on materials (time or gold)
AM: 126 ap, 5400 boss kills, 3,100 awful kills, 2,700 strong kills, 2,600 even/any kills. couple mil worth of time/gold in training materials for crystal making, synthing, and fragmenting.
Clay mastery: 115 ap, approximately 1k kills, 1/4th of which are boss.
Mana crystalization 227 ap, several thousands casts worth of advanced magic: mp.
transmutation skill: 82 ap, training met during other skill's training
synthesis: 38 ap (current, 76 g14), several million gold spent training to rk6, assume several million more for rank 1.
rk5 WC: 62 ap, training met during other skills training
Thunder: 409 ap
1259 ap to reasonably accomplish what most detractors to summon golem say would make it "easy" to train and use. I haven't bothered adding in the various skills you'd need to support thunder, and am assuming it is being used primarily to meet the training requirements of mana crystalization to let the player get to rk1 alchemy mastery. You can sacrifice rk1 alchemy mastery, and just get rk2 and cut out the need for thunder and mana crystalization without suffering much loss of power of your golems, but all examples of overpowered golems include rk1 AM, so I include it too.
If such a character supported thunder well with meditate, magic mastery, and the often suggested rk1 bolt spells, critical hit, and INT giving music skills, you could easily see the character costing 2k ap Material costs are easily pushing over 5m either through buying from other players or hunting them yourself.
Yogurticecream wrote on 2011-02-04 09:21
Alchemy is not that easy to maintain with Sulphur and Snow. You'll definitely be either burning time or money.
It's not easy to rank. If anything, they should be making it harder for people who don't mine and make their own crystals to rank. (e.g. make it compulsory for them to mine the rocks).
Forest golems are also not very easy to make (note: white herbs problem) but I do well with donations from people who don't use alchemy.
Reyaxris wrote on 2011-02-04 09:22
So much hate. :l
If golems need a nerf, then they'll get it.
It's not up to you guys to decide whether or not it should get a hit by the nerf bat.
Go to Korea and voice your opinions to KR Nexon if you feel so bold about it. That way, you'll be spending your time wisely rather than arguing with people who do not see your point.
@Maia: Lulz. I <3 you still. Everything down V is for the general populace.
-insert- All players are OP. Skills are OP. Mabinogi is OP. Etc etc etc. End game excuses and complaints don't profit anyone. If you feel like you can't reach "End Game" status because you feel like your skill set lacks against the ttl lv 700 Alchemist, then why didn't you become one? Oh because you don't want to? Tough luck. You guys didn't make the skills, Devcat did. If you have complaints see my "Go to Korea" comment.
If anything, all the haters should hate on the "noob" alchemists. Those who have R1 Golems but don't use it right. From a plethora of stupidity
-Wming Thunderer/Crash shot user/Fireball user mobs
-Not using WM at the right time
-Wming mobs that can potentially aggro party members and lead to their death
-Wasting Golems (summoning over and over again because they don't use it right)
-Comparing their damage to yours (HA MY GOLEM OUT DMG UR DMG NUB)
Seriously, by all means, hate on these people and their golems, but respect those who use their golems properly.
=======
off-topic:
This thread is basically going to "I'm going to sit here and argue about golems and say they need/don't need a nerf because....but then I'll forget about it anyway when DevCat does something/forgets about it."
Seriously not a big deal.
Ailyene wrote on 2011-02-04 10:14
All I can say is that I ranked up golem too, but I've gone back to melee now because the costs of using sulfurs and snows (well I never use snows...too annoying to get) is too much. I'd much rather spend 4-5 mil on an enchant that will last me a heck of a long time than on a ton of golems which can die easily due to anything. =( It's more worth getting the good enchants over time compared to buying crystals all the time. Golem is my last resort.
Also, regarding the knocking out of mobs things, a ton of people who don't use golem or windmill do that too. I've had so many people knocking monsters out of my flame burst with their weakass damage using range/magic/smash/etc. that it drives me nuts. >_> And they're not even randoms...
Aubog007 wrote on 2011-02-04 11:31
Quote from Koishi;319171:
If a golem doesn't need skills it doesn't have, then not having them is not a downside.
I'm talking about Master of Barrier Spikes, not Golem Master, but whatever.
Okay, 7 golem stacks for 150k.
In what world is Burg Bear 250k? Try 500k absolute min. Spike ES 10k?
Are we playing the same game here?
50k broads are a minimum. Upwards can be 125k.
You need 7 swords on average to make 2 stamps. You need 7 stamps on average to make two spikes. Do the math.
Okay, your golem takes a hit, big woop. It clears the room again right after. Also, how many things have HS2? Or you might have to kill one or two things aggroing you if that, and then you summon another.
.
Yeah, but how much money did you spend on the dustin to make sure it didn't blow up? Caliburn has such low repair costs too.
No, Forest and Stone golems are just "less bad". Forest Golems pump out damage like a 1.5-2k character, rather than a 4k one, with unbeatable range.
1. Title gives defense.
2. Can't argue with you there.
3. Sold a burg bear burn for 250k. Enchant scroll almost expired cause noone bought.
Twice.
4. Bleh. I don't do spike yet. Sold a spiked item for 20k due to no buyers.
5. As someone said. WMing 1 hit = dead.
6.Whoever uses Caliburn and Goddess are not allowed to complain about costs. Ever. Your choice on using. Dustins run across 2-3 min here and are steady.
7. Stone golems do not crit. Ever. Forests only with WM on HM.
But yea.
Koishi wrote on 2011-02-04 13:48
Quote from Cryosite;319893:
If you're fighting content that can be one-shot by the snow golem, then you're probably not bringing in enough loot to pay for the cost of that golem. They're already 20-30k EACH for snow golems, and when the g14 nerfs to availability comes in, expect them to skyrocket in price.
Snow golems aren't nearly as powerful as even mid-ranged melee. If things live through a melee player's wm, they can assault slash and wm again for huge damage. Last I checked, golems don't have assault slash. They're two-trick ponies. They can wm with a big area or they can smash for good damage. A melee player can do that, assault slash, charge, cast bolts, easily use pets to pet swipe, switch to range and ar, and numerous other strategies. The only reason golems are even remotely good is because they have enough damage to be useful.
Maybe the melee player can be better than a snow golem if they're at a high level of skill. The problem with the golem is that it doesn't require a high level of skill.
Also, the melee player's potential is limited not only by the time he is willing to spend grinding for something like WM, or how much money or time he needs to get an enchant set, but simply by how much AP is needed to max out. In addition to CM/WM/Smash, the melee player has to delve into carpentry (which is not only a fairly grindy life skill, but it is actually fairly high in AP costs compared to other life skills) and Final Hit (high AP costs), and now Sword Mastery.
The golem can't do a lot of things. It doesn't need to. Why? Because it's expendable. If a golem death costs 5k, a player death can cost as much or more (reblessing items, quaffing HP pots to get back to full strength).
And if you're soloing, then that's the end of the mission for the melee player unless you have Nao. If your golem dies, you still have a chance to escape the situation.
Ask this: In a general circumstance, who is more likely to die against a given mob, the melee player, or the golem user? How much more skill does the melee player need to avoid death compared to how much the golem player needs to stay alive? Yes, it takes work to get a high-level golem. It also takes about the same work to get even mid-level melee damage, and the payoff is much lower than with the high-level golem, because they must risk death in order to deal damage on a consistent basis, more than any other skillset in the game.
So in short - lower skill curve, relatively equal time/money costs (if we're going to compare golems to mid-game as opposed to end-game melee), and vastly lower AP needs = broken.
If you feel like you can't reach "End Game" status because you feel like your skill set lacks against the ttl lv 700 Alchemist, then why didn't you become one?
Because I sunk about 1000 AP into melee and several million into enchants, and I don't feel like making those 1000 APs redundant?
Fracture wrote on 2011-02-04 14:09
Quote from Koishi;318804:
This is an absolutely inarguable point.
No, it isn't. You do not speak for everyone, so you cannot decide what is or is not arguable.
Personally, I'm fine with golems as they are. The entire premise of the golem skill was to be a melee proxy, yet all of the nerfs you suggested there would utterly defeat the point. Just like any skill in the game-- the ones who complain are the ones not willing to put in the effort to rank it.
As for the prices of deaths-- Golem deaths (golems that are worth it, anyway) cost 15-50K each. A player death costs maybe 5K and a few minutes of your time.
Maybe. Assuming you managed to get debless on everything you own.
Finally, if you're complaining about
risks, why are you melee? Alchemists, like mages, take a less risky role in exchange for slightly lower DPS. If you're complaining about the risk of fighting melee, then don't fight melee. Plain and simple.
Koishi wrote on 2011-02-04 14:41
Quote from Fracture;319979:
No, it isn't. You do not speak for everyone, so you cannot decide what is or is not arguable.
Personally, I'm fine with golems as they are. The entire premise of the golem skill was to be a melee proxy, yet all of the nerfs you suggested there would utterly defeat the point. Just like any skill in the game-- the ones who complain are the ones not willing to put in the effort to rank it.
Alchemy is not a proxy for melee. A proxy would suggest that alchemists undergo the same risks as melee players. They do not. It is not a proxy, it is a replacement. And I guess it's okay that I put in effort to rank WM, build up my STR, get enchants, only for it to be trumped by someone who put in at BEST as much, and in most cases far less than I did?
As for the prices of deaths-- Golem deaths (golems that are worth it, anyway) cost 15-50K each. A player death costs maybe 5K and a few minutes of your time. Maybe. Assuming you managed to get debless on everything you own.
Sulfurs are like 5, maybe Snows are 15k. Human death is 5k if you assume 3 or more deblesses, about another 1k to pot back to full health, and if solo, your run is over unless you use Nao or get an adv feather (or if in a dungeon, you risk dropping items, which can be even more expensive).
Finally, if you're complaining about risks, why are you melee? Alchemists, like mages, take a less risky role in exchange for slightly lower DPS. If you're complaining about the risk of fighting melee, then don't fight melee. Plain and simple.
Because the loss of DPS is out of proportion to the loss of risk. This is valid in the case of mages. This is not valid in the case of golem alchemists.