Golem Exp Nerf

• Kenero wrote on 2011-02-03 21:45

  Quote from Username;319071:

  I Upgraded a Volcano Cylinder here on Ruairi; +16 to max fire? It only let me go to 13 Max fire damage. I had the right prof and money for it, dont get me wrong.

  
  
  Flame burst is a pretty awesome skill, no? The hardest part of the skill is trying to get the AOE correct since it's a fan shape.
• Username wrote on 2011-02-03 21:47

  Quote from Kenero;319074:

  Flame burst is a pretty awesome skill, no? The hardest part of the skill is trying to get the AOE correct since it's a fan shape.

  
  
  Yea it is, i dont mean to go off topic because this is a Golem Topic. But 13 Max Fire Damage on normal upgrades for Volcano Cylinder is as far as it goes, the wiki didn't have the right upgrade numbers for 1-3 and 2-3 and etc etc. :V?
• Sunureu13 wrote on 2011-02-03 21:51
  Holy crap there was 4 more pages after my last post -.-
  
  

  Quote from Koishi;318917:

  Clearly people are so in love with destroying **** with their golems for comparatively little effort that they won't even consider how overpowered they are.

  
  
  ITT: Koishi butthurt about golems. Seriously guy, grow up or play a different game.
  
  

  Quote from Koishi;318917:

  And? Who gives a **** if a golem dies? That's the problem with them, they're expendable. One dies, you toss out another one on the next room. How about a 10 min cooldown per golem?

  
  
  And what? I already explained the downsides of golems, there is no and.
  Of course they're expendable. That's the point. How about a 0 min cooldown? Sounds good to me.
  
  

  Quote from Koishi;318917:

  Because they don't need it. The range and versatility of alchemists makes up for it. Oh btw, the alchemist titles are pretty overpowered; 12 prot? What was Nexon thinking?

  
  
  Herpaderp -50str/dex/int. It's called survivability/tanking, ever hear that term? And we're talking about golems, not the alchemist itself.
  
  

  Quote from Koishi;318917:

  Combat Mastery is 200 AP. Windmill is 177. Smash is 183. Crit is 132. Assuming an average of 10 exploration levels per week, you're looking at 700ish to rank them all, assuming you've put nothing into defense, counter, etc. Also, you need either Refine or Sword Mastery to have decent balance. Refine is 53 AP, Sword Mastery is 153. Rank 1 Range is another 155.
  
  So we're talking roughly total level 1k before we even start to see high damage and stats. That doesn't take into account enchants, upgraded weapons, etc.
  
  The golem user spends 500-600 AP and pumps out twice as much with no risk to himself.

  
  
  idc. Deal with it.
  
  

  Quote from Koishi;318917:

  Oh and getting Wooden Needle, White Horse and Spike/Horn are not expensive. You need high-level enchants and high-quality weapons or you're not touching even sulfurs.
  
  Never mind that you can clone sulfurs just fine, but I guess that's not enough for you people, is it?

  
  
  Enchants last a lot longer than 6 minutes each :) No, "us people" can't dupe sulfurs just fine. It takes a 10k arat and 1.5k HW for one try. And at max success rate, it's barely above 70%.
  
  

  Quote from Koishi;318917:

  I meant, they should take BOTH. And just to be sure, keep the HP drain thing, and when your HP gets to deadly, the golem crumbles.

  
  
  HP potions.
  
  

  Quote from Koishi;318917:

  Please refer back to "getting enchants is expensive too". Remember the mystery box? Pro players were paying 2m for White Horse codes.

  
  
  No. All the enchants were selliing for 250k-500k when they were out. That's when the pros were getting them. Now they cost a decent amount because they didn't get them when they should have, or destroyed their enchanted item.
  
  

  Quote from Koishi;318917:

  Okay, they lose 50 damage. Whatever.

  
  
  Going from 777 max (snow golem with 1/1/1) to 727 isn't too bad. But still, wouldn't you rather have more damage done to a boss when you're in a party? I sure as hell would :)
  
  

  Quote from Koishi;318917:

  babby doesn't want his gamebreaker nerfed, how cute

  
  
  Please refer to my ITT:butthurt comment.
  
  

  Quote from Koishi;318917:

  It's a nerf. That's the point.

  
  
  No. Survivability/tank, etc.
  
  

  Quote from Koishi;318917:

  Because they make nearly all other playstyles redundant. Beyond *maybe* having to protect the golem, a strong golem makes the rest of the party redundant. That's not fun. The WMer example does not apply because the WMer puts himself at RISK to deal the damage he does. The golem user does not. That is the key difference. That is why golem summon is broken. When the WMer dies, he loses blessings, has to be revived, it's painful. When the golem dies, the alchemist takes 5 seconds, and summons another.
  
  [QUOTE=Koishi;318917]As of now, Golem Summon is Mabinogi on. But that's fine for some people I guess. But when the game devs outright acknowledged that golem summon is broken, maybe you should consider that maybe, just maybe, you're on the wrong side of the argument.

  
  
  Golems make range and magic redundant? ORLY? As "broken" as they may be, try running a peaca (not int) solo with golems. Try running anything where mobs have HS2+. Yeah, kay?
  
  

  Quote from Maia:

  And the big deal is they get endgame damage without any knowledge of anything else lol 700 level person knows nothing about AI (usually), plus they're going to run around KSing everyone who does know AI, or worse, getting them killed. They might lose their golem which isn't a big deal, but a player dying loses blessings and exp.
  
  And you're right, we're not talking about pvp. We're talking about pve, where poor melee usage on the part of a level 700 alchemist using an OP golem can cause a player to die and lose blessings/kills and thus rare drops. Alchemists should stick to real alchemy lol A golem dying should cause the player some harm, 20-50% damage or something, or at the very least transfer all aggro to the alchemist... watch em run

  
  
  First off, you're bashing poor players instead of golems. I'm not defending ANYBODY who plays poorly. As a matter of fact, I get angry about it. But a golem in the hands of a skilled player I will defend. And alchemy sticking to "real alchemy?" Yeah, okay.
  
  
  
  Oh my lord. The stupidity and close-mindedness in this thread makes me rage so hard. I don't even feel like responding to this thread. I'm going to have a heart attack from it. Koishi and Maia, why don't you take up goleming, and tell me your experiences. Or don't. That'd just waste crystals for real golemers. What I'm trying to say is, you can talk all this trash about golems, but you're just little scrubs that don't respect other playstyles, so..
  
  SHUT THE **** UP.
• Kenero wrote on 2011-02-03 21:53

  Quote from Koishi;319070:

  
  
  
  long snippet

  
  
  You know, one day I decided to try it out.
  
  I hunted the supposed max melee light armor set The Ancient Darkness, raven boots, wooden needle, 222 enchanted broad swords, heck even up to the accessories and successfully got them within a month's worth of time.
  
  It took effort and time, I agree to get those sets, but it goes to show that it is easily obtainable with will. Heck, to even use it, I invested some skills into combat, such as r1 wm, combat, and smash, I found that I could imitate the damage or outdo the damage of someone who has invested much more into combat such as r1 smash, r1 fh, r1 wm, carpentry, etc... but they don't have the ancient darkness or wooden needle enchants or the accessories, though they did have otter heavy armor and raven boots.
  
  For me who invested only what? Less than 600 ap into combat able to imitate a person who has invested more than 1.5k+ ap because of purely on equipment that I collected in a months time.
  
  Is it fair that the person who has invested more ap than me have equal or less damage than me because of my equips?
  
  Same thing with a golem. Though it is only 6 minutes, it is something that they have earned and should keep, regardless of ap.
  
  

  Quote from Username;319076:

  Yea it is, i dont mean to go off topic because this is a Golem Topic. But 13 Max Fire Damage on normal upgrades for Volcano Cylinder is as far as it goes, the wiki didn't have the right upgrade numbers for 1-3 and 2-3 and etc etc. :V?

  
  
  I went red upgrade with mine. +26% more crit comes a long way to an already high base damage of fire with 5 charges.
• Koishi wrote on 2011-02-03 22:03

  Quote from Sunureu13;319081:

  Holy crap there was 4 more pages after my last post -.-
  
  
  
  ITT: Koishi butthurt about golems. Seriously guy, grow up or play a different game.

  
  
  The pro-golem side has run out of arguments so they're flinging insults.
  
  
  
  

  And what? I already explained the downsides of golems, there is no and.

  
  
  baww golems don't have skills that they don't need
  
  

  Herpaderp -50str/dex/int. It's called survivability/tanking, ever hear that term? And we're talking about golems, not the alchemist itself.

  
  
  Because since alchemy doesn't use stats, 50 str/dex/int manages to be completely irrelevant! And the Barrier Spikes title is broken for mages as well as alchemists, seeing they don't use those stats as much.
  
  

  idc. Deal with it.
  

  
  
  Oh look you've run out of arguments.
  
  

  Enchants last a lot longer than 6 minutes each :) No, "us people" can't dupe sulfurs just fine. It takes a 10k arat and 1.5k HW for one try. And at max success rate, it's barely above 70%.

  
  
  And they cost millions in gold. And barely above 70% is supposed to be bad? That's a rank A enchant.
  
  

  No. All the enchants were selliing for 250k-500k when they were out. That's when the pros were getting them. Now they cost a decent amount because they didn't get them when they should have, or destroyed their enchanted item.

  
  
  The point still stands. Wooden Needle WPC costs 1.5-3m. Spike anything costs 500k minimum, upwards of 1.5m. Making them yourself is even more of a pain.
  
  Going from 777 max (snow golem with 1/1/1) to 727 isn't too bad. But still, wouldn't you rather have more damage done to a boss when you're in a party? I sure as hell would :)
  
  

  Please refer to my ITT:butthurt comment.
  

  
  
  please refer to my "run out of arguments" comment.
  
  

  Golems make range and magic redundant? ORLY? As "broken" as they may be, try running a peaca (not int) solo with golems. Try running anything where mobs have HS2+. Yeah, kay?
  

  
  
  Last time I checked WM still sends HS2 mobs flying. HS3 mobs exist in Peaca...and not many places else. Yes, everyone is redundant when the mob is near dead in one WM.
  
  
  

  
  Oh my lord. The stupidity and close-mindedness in this thread makes me rage so hard. I don't even feel like responding to this thread. I'm going to have a heart attack from it. Koishi and Maia, why don't you take up goleming, and tell me your experiences. Or don't. That'd just waste crystals for real golemers. What I'm trying to say is, you can talk all this trash about golems, but you're just little scrubs that don't respect other playstyles, so..
  
  SHUT THE **** UP.

  
  
  See, that's how spoiled golem users are; they look at the little minor inconveniences and inflate them to the level of real issues that other playstyles have to work through. Why don't you main melee or range and tell me how YOUR experiences are?
  
  

  I hunted the supposed max melee light armor set The Ancient Darkness, raven boots, wooden needle, 222 broad swords, heck even up to the accessories and successfully got them within a month's worth of time.
  
  It took effort and time, I agree to get those sets, but it goes to show that it is easily obtainable with will. Heck, to even use it, I invested some skills into combat, such as r1 wm, combat, and smash, I found that I could imitate the damage or outdo the damage of someone who has invested much more into combat such as r1 smash, r1 fh, r1 wm, carpentry, etc... but they don't have the ancient darkness or wooden needle enchants or the accessories, though they did have otter heavy armor and raven boots.

  
  
  You still invested a month's time (and what's to say everyone can get these in the same time you did? I was lucky enough to get a White Horse in 4 runs, someone on this forum is on their 15th Ciar Adv run) and who knows how much money. Same with Wooden Needle; did you simply have enough money at the time to buy it? Raven Boots were incredibly common for a while, and still can be found for about 250k now.
  
  Yes it's less effort than someone who got their damage through stats (but keep in mind that there aren't that many STR skills anyway, hence why we need enchants to begin with), but it's nothing compared to the difference between what a golem user can do, and what they should be able to do at their level.
• Shirayuki wrote on 2011-02-03 22:06
  random thought: AR got nerfed hard back in G7 and it wasn't nearly as powerful as golem. Golem doesn't get touched at all besides a minuscule reduction in size to the golems themselves.
  
  makes me a sad panda :(
• Kenero wrote on 2011-02-03 22:07

  Quote from Shirayuki;319104:

  random thought: AR got nerfed hard back in G7 and it wasn't nearly as powerful as golem. Golem doesn't get touched at all besides a minuscule reduction in size to the golems themselves.
  
  makes me a sad panda :(

  
  
  That makes me sad too. If anything, I feel that AR needs to be boosted somehow. If it at least return to pre-g7, it would be wonderful. But I wonder if it's because the new director doesn't necessarily want to mess with the old director's work too much. That and maybe giving Crash Shot was suppose to be an acknowledgement of rangers.
• Shirayuki wrote on 2011-02-03 22:08

  Quote from Kenero;319107:

  That makes me sad too. If anything, I feel that AR needs to be boosted somehow. If it at least return to pre-g7, it would be wonderful. But I wonder if it's because the new director doesn't necessarily want to mess with the old director's work too much. That and maybe giving Crash Shot was suppose to be an acknowledgement of rangers.

  
  
  I feel like I should make a new thread just for this :D
• Phunkie wrote on 2011-02-03 22:16
  Koishi, really. If you think being a Golem user is so easy, make a separate account, rank it up as you go.
  
  You will quit very quickly.
  
  It's not that easy. You need money and time, which hinders your ability to run dungeons quickly and efficiently.
• Shirayuki wrote on 2011-02-03 22:18

  Quote from Phunkie;319122:

  Koishi, really. If you think being a Golem user is so easy, make a separate account, rank it up as you go.
  
  You will quit very quickly.
  
  It's not that easy. You need money and time, which hinders your ability to run dungeons quickly and efficiently.

  
  
  Just to be the devil's advocate here, but my old guild leader went from RF to R1 in the course of a week. Sure, he spent something along the lines of 3~4m, but my statement's really just for me sparking more hate >:D
• Phunkie wrote on 2011-02-03 22:20

  Quote from Shirayuki;319125:

  Just to be the devil's advocate here, but my old guild leader went from RF to R1 in the course of a week. Sure, he spent something along the lines of 3~4m, but my statement's really just for me sparking more hate >:D

  
  
  Not, not to rank the skill. To use it as much as you want, whenever you want.
  
  It's not just... OH R6 SYNTHESIS, IT'S ONLY LIKE 76 AP. THAT MAKES YOU EVEN MORE UBER.
  
  No, no. None of that. It's hard, period. And he keeps ignoring very valid points brought up by Sunereu and Kenero.
• Shirayuki wrote on 2011-02-03 22:22

  Quote from Phunkie;319129:

  Not, not to rank the skill. To use it as much as you want.

  
  
  He used forest golems and some stone golems. They did enough since this was back in G9. I remember one GB, he had a forest golem out for 70% of the battle.
  
  Also, in our Adv HM runs, he'd have a golem out for the whole dungeon.
• Sunureu13 wrote on 2011-02-03 22:22

  Quote from Koishi;319100:

  The pro-golem side has run out of arguments so they're flinging insults.
  
  Nope. I just don't feel like repeating myself, because I've already presented the evidence I needed to. I'm insulting you because you're not listening or even considering my side of the argument. :)
  
  [QUOTE=Koishi;319100]baww golems don't have skills that they don't need

  
  
  I didn't say they needed them, that's why I stated it was a downside of golem.
  
  

  Quote from Koishi;319100:

  Because since alchemy doesn't use stats, 50 str/dex/int manages to be completely irrelevant! And the Barrier Spikes title is broken for mages as well as alchemists, seeing they don't use those stats as much.

  
  
  Yep, mages definitely don't need that 50 int. It's not a broken title. It's a tank title.
  
  

  Quote from Koishi;319100:

  Oh look you've run out of arguments.

  
  
  Don't want to repeat, etc.
  
  

  Quote from Koishi;319100:

  And they cost millions in gold. And barely above 70% is supposed to be bad? That's a rank A enchant.

  
  
  That's at least 15k per try. 10k arat + 1.5k hw + 5k sulfur. Do you realize how much that adds up? Especially when it fails.
  
  

  Quote from Koishi;319100:

  The point still stands. Wooden Needle WPC costs 1.5-3m. Spike anything costs 500k minimum, upwards of 1.5m. Making them yourself is even more of a pain.

  
  
  Making them yourself is easy peasy. WNWPC is dirt cheap to make. 250k BB WPC + hunting WN. 10k Spike ES + hunting stamps and putting them on 25-50k broadswords.
  
  

  Quote from Koishi;319100:

  Last time I checked WM still sends HS2 mobs flying. HS3 mobs exist in Peaca...and not many places else. Yes, everyone is redundant when the mob is near dead in one WM.

  
  
  Last time I checked, HS2 mobs got up 60% faster.
  
  

  Quote from Koishi;319100:

  See, that's how spoiled golem users are; they look at the little minor inconveniences and inflate them to the level of real issues that other playstyles have to work through. Why don't you main melee or range and tell me how YOUR experiences are?

  
  
  LOOKS LIKE UR OUT OF THINGS TO SAY BCUZ UR INSULTING ME HUR. See? Makes you look pretty bad too. I mained melee, had shadowhunter caliburn r1 sigged broads, WNWPC when they were still 4m (which I made myself), Conceptual Darkness 7/5 dustin (didn't have that at the same time I melee'd, but I still made it myself), beholder shield, etc. My best friend played a 2k Elf, which I play occasionally, and yeah, lots of hard work put into that too. It's great being able to use range, counter, bolts, etc and not have to really worry about dying because of my playstyle.
• Phunkie wrote on 2011-02-03 22:25

  Quote from Shirayuki;319131:

  He used forest golems and some stone golems. They did enough since this was back in G9. I remember one GB, he had a forest golem out for 70% of the battle.
  
  Also, in our Adv HM runs, he'd have a golem out for the whole dungeon.

  
  
  Granted. But Koishi is complaining about damages that cannot be performed by simple Stone and Forest Golems.
  
  Maintaining those are doable. Sulfur and Snows are not.
• Falsetto wrote on 2011-02-03 22:26
  Calm the hell down with the insults, or I will have to crack some skulls.