Golem Exp Nerf

• Kenero wrote on 2011-02-03 20:33

  Quote from Koishi;318939:

  Yeah, it's not like those skills take a lot of time to load, make you immobile while using them, require the mob to be positioned just right, require timing and strategy, or require stats (yes Int is easy to get but you still need to invest AP for rank 1 bolts and such).
  
  Instead of focusing on how much damage a given skill puts out, how about focusing on how easy it is to use, and how much risk it puts you at.

  
  
  Both thunderer and golems when behind a barrier spike is protected. Heck, let's make it that when thunderers are behind barrier spikes, their thunder instantly cancels, no? Because being protected would be too OP.
  
  Let's even go further to mob positioning. Thunder chain spreads well, that also matches in that golems have limited mobility before being forced out of control.
  
  Blaze? Smack right into the enemy, dealing 10~15k damage in less than 0.8 s load time.
  
  And even after the nerf, it still does a lot. I think it needs further nerfing. I mean look at poor fireball... even with 16 s to cast, it won't be able to match blaze's dps over time. D:
• M wrote on 2011-02-03 20:35

  Quote from Phunkie;318892:

  Why are you "KS"ing someone who is in your party in the first place?
  
  Why are you even running with that person if you have all this resentment towards him or her?
  
  And Golem is real alchemy. It's under the Alchemy tab for a reason. That person goes through all the trouble of ranking his or her skills and Alchemy Mastery and whatnot, just like you rank up your own skills.

  
  
  I KS alchemists who use Golems nonstop and don't use real skills. I don't find golem spamming useful in party situations unless I'm int magicing and need some lackeys to guard me :)
  
  

  Quote from Koishi;318917:

  Clearly people are so in love with destroying **** with their golems for comparatively little effort that they won't even consider how overpowered they are.
  
  
  
  And? Who gives a **** if a golem dies? That's the problem with them, they're expendable. One dies, you toss out another one on the next room. How about a 10 min cooldown per golem?
  
  
  
  Because they don't need it. The range and versatility of alchemists makes up for it. Oh btw, the alchemist titles are pretty overpowered; 12 prot? What was Nexon thinking?
  
  
  
  Combat Mastery is 200 AP. Windmill is 177. Smash is 183. Crit is 132. Assuming an average of 10 exploration levels per week, you're looking at 700ish to rank them all, assuming you've put nothing into defense, counter, etc. Also, you need either Refine or Sword Mastery to have decent balance. Refine is 53 AP, Sword Mastery is 153. Rank 1 Range is another 155.
  
  So we're talking roughly total level 1k before we even start to see high damage and stats. That doesn't take into account enchants, upgraded weapons, etc.
  
  The golem user spends 500-600 AP and pumps out twice as much with no risk to himself.
  
  
  
  Oh and getting Wooden Needle, White Horse and Spike/Horn are not expensive. You need high-level enchants and high-quality weapons or you're not touching even sulfurs.
  
  
  
  Never mind that you can clone sulfurs just fine, but I guess that's not enough for you people, is it?
  
  Now let me get back to koishi's suggestions.
  
  
  
  I meant, they should take BOTH. And just to be sure, keep the HP drain thing, and when your HP gets to deadly, the golem crumbles.
  
  
  
  Please refer back to "getting enchants is expensive too". Remember the mystery box? Pro players were paying 2m for White Horse codes.
  
  
  
  Okay, they lose 50 damage. Whatever.
  
  
  
  babby doesn't want his gamebreaker nerfed, how cute
  
  
  
  It's a nerf. That's the point.
  
  
  
  Because they make nearly all other playstyles redundant. Beyond *maybe* having to protect the golem, a strong golem makes the rest of the party redundant. That's not fun. The WMer example does not apply because the WMer puts himself at RISK to deal the damage he does. The golem user does not. That is the key difference. That is why golem summon is broken. When the WMer dies, he loses blessings, has to be revived, it's painful. When the golem dies, the alchemist takes 5 seconds, and summons another.
  
  As of now, Golem Summon is Mabinogi on easymodo. But that's fine for some people I guess. But when the game devs outright acknowledged that golem summon is broken, maybe you should consider that maybe, just maybe, you're on the wrong side of the argument.

  
  
  ^ lol this. And yes golems really are easy mode.... that's what I think when i see someone using them. It's shameful to them and the party I'm in lol Unless it's like... G9 final, or something where everyone needs to WM spam (peaca int ghosts, etc) then I can understand... but in normal situations, it's just sad easymode fail.
  
  

  Quote from Phunkie;318923:

  Does a strong Blaze make the rest of the party redundant? Crits and destroys the party in so very little time.
  
  How about someone spamming their R1 Ice Spear + R1 Ice Mastery? I mean, we literally can't attack any monster while they're frozen in mid-air.
  
  Fireball? Destroys Snow Trolls with crits of over 9000 literally (if you wanna get specific, like 11k crits and higher).
  
  Should we nerf those (again)?

  
  
  We're not talking about other skills. lol and no, people who spend thousands of AP don't need to be nerfed. They really don't. Snow trolls are weak to fire... maybe that's why it crits so high? lol
  
  

  Quote from Kenero;318928:

  Agreed. Heck, even ranking thunder to r1 and lightning mastery for 600 AP will give a person the ability to even solo hard missions. I demand that gets nerf too, if you want to compare it. It's too easy to get mp100 to supply thunder, let's nerf the mp100 a bit more because using one to decimate a whole room is a bit too much. *sacarsm*

  
  
  Well they nerfed the damage quite a bit for low int players... you need to rank other skills now :O! Sort of like what we're suggesting for golems... huh. Also Thunder draws aggro to you, which is a risk to you. Using a golem is no risk...
  
  

  Quote from newpants;318938:

  How about not being able to control the golem. Golem is left with normal golem AI. The golem user is free to run around using skills.
  
  Would that be worse or better? Lol.

  
  
  I like this idea. Make it more like evie on vind when she summons a golem... that's ideal imo ;)
  
  

  Quote from Shirayuki;318886:

  I love how this went from a question thread to a back and forth about golem love/hate.
  
  NOW FOR MY INPUT: Golems give a Lv500 the same damage as a Lv4xxx, like Guild said. I say just nerf the damage by 10~20%. 3.5k crit wms into 2.8k crit wms are still better than ANY nontrans human melee, so it shouldn't make a difference.

  
  
  In all honesty though this thread should be done :P the question was answered lol
• Phunkie wrote on 2011-02-03 20:39

  Quote from Koishi;318939:

  Yeah, it's not like those skills take a lot of time to load, make you immobile while using them, require the mob to be positioned just right, require timing and strategy, or require stats (yes Int is easy to get but you still need to invest AP for rank 1 bolts and such).
  
  Instead of focusing on how much damage a given skill puts out, how about focusing on how easy it is to use, and how much risk it puts you at.

  
  
  This is a test done by the friendly folks over at Mabidata.
  
  

  Finest: 7/277 = 2.53%
  Fine: 22/277 = 7.94%
  Common: 93/277 = 33.57%
  Low-Grade: 114/277 = 41.15%
  Clay Crystal: 41/277 = 14.80%

  
  
  http://mabidata.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=456#p4034
  
  This is mining Stones of Sliab Cuiling at Basic Level. Take note that a level 600 person (assuming that's how much AP you need to rank Alchemy Mastery, Clay Mastery and Summon Golem to Rank 1) cannot enter Hard Mode missions yet. They need a few hundred more levels.
  
  This makes getting Snow Golems even harder.
  
  But fine, say they stick to Sulfur Golems, which are still pretty darn good.
  
  ~8% per mined rock is okay. Not exceptionally. For every 100 times you mine, you will get 8 Fine Cuilin Stones. You need 2 to make a Sulfur Golem Crystals. If you succeed all of them, that's 4 Sulfur Golem Crystals.
  
  Say, Summon Golem is your best skill; the only thing you use to fight in Mabinogi. And you like to run Shadow Cast City Advanced (remember, you don't have Hard yet). It will take you at least 2 Golems to finish the mission. I doubt that you can finish it in exactly 6 minutes, which is the duration of a Golem's life at Rank 1 Summon Goldem.
  
  2 Sulfur Golems. That's already half the amount of Sulfur Golem Crystals you have. 2 runs of Shadow Cast City Advanced and you're out of Crystals. That means going back to Stones of Sliab Cuilin and mining more Stones to make more Crystals.
  
  If you were to run Theater Missions, with buddies. Every scene switch, you would lose your Golem. There are 3 scene switches in The King's Request and Guardian of Avon. In one run of these missions, you would lose already over half your Golem Crystals. You would be useless for a second run of these Theather Missions in scenes 2 and scenes 3 (the final boss), because as I said, Summon Golem is your best skill.
  
  And you want a nerf?
• M wrote on 2011-02-03 20:41

  Quote from Phunkie;318956:

  This is a test done by the friendly folks over at Mabidata.
  
  
  
  http://mabidata.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=456#p4034
  
  This is mining Stones of Sliab Cuiling at Basic Level. Take note that a level 600 person (assuming that's how much AP you need to rank Alchemy Mastery, Clay Mastery and Summon Golem to Rank 1) cannot enter Hard Mode missions yet. They need a few hundred more levels.
  
  This makes getting Snow Golems even harder.
  
  But fine, say they stick to Sulfur Golems, which are still pretty darn good.
  
  ~8% per mined rock is okay. Not exceptionally. For every 100 times you mine, you will get 8 Fine Cuilin Stones. You need 2 to make a Sulfur Golem Crystals. If you succeed all of them, that's 4 Sulfur Golem Crystals.
  
  Say, Summon Golem is your best skill; the only thing you use to fight in Mabinogi. And you like to run Shadow Cast City Advanced (remember, you don't have Hard yet). It will take you at least 2 Golems to finish the mission. I doubt that you can finish it in exactly 6 minutes, which is the duration of a Golem's life at Rank 1 Summon Goldem.
  
  2 Sulfur Golems. That's already half the amount of Sulfur Golem Crystals you have. 2 runs of Shadow Cast City Advanced and you're out of Crystals. That means going back to Stones of Sliab Cuilin and mining more Stones to make more Crystals.
  
  If you were to run Theater Missions, with buddies. Every scene switch, you would lose your Golem. There are 3 scene switches in The King's Request and Guardian of Avon. In one run of these missions, you would lose already over half your Golem Crystals. You would be useless for a second run of these Theather Missions in scenes 2 and scenes 3 (the final boss), because as I said, Summon Golem is your best skill.
  
  And you want a nerf?

  
  
  Theatre missions are not 100% of the game... they're like 5% at most lol Additionally people generally don't mine to make their snow golems, they just get them from drops, friends, or buy them. At least from my experience...
• Zatrox wrote on 2011-02-03 20:44
  I'm pretty surprised no melee player has even considered a Double-Team position with golems.
  I've done it before, just alternate WM's between you and your golem. There, you're stronger than the person who just uses golem!
  
  Only limitation is that you need a good computer to handle the transition times, but most of the hardcore players have one anyway...
• Kenero wrote on 2011-02-03 20:45

  Quote from Phunkie;318956:

  This is a test done by the friendly folks over at Mabidata.
  
  
  
  http://mabidata.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=456#p4034
  
  This is mining Stones of Sliab Cuiling at Basic Level. Take note that a level 600 person (assuming that's how much AP you need to rank Alchemy Mastery, Clay Mastery and Summon Golem to Rank 1) cannot enter Hard Mode missions yet. They need a few hundred more levels.
  
  This makes getting Snow Golems even harder.
  
  But fine, say they stick to Sulfur Golems, which are still pretty darn good.
  
  ~8% per mined rock is okay. Not exceptionally. For every 100 times you mine, you will get 8 Fine Cuilin Stones. You need 2 to make a Sulfur Golem Crystals. If you succeed all of them, that's 4 Sulfur Golem Crystals.
  
  Say, Summon Golem is your best skill; the only thing you use to fight in Mabinogi. And you like to run Shadow Cast City Advanced (remember, you don't have Hard yet). It will take you at least 2 Golems to finish the mission. I doubt that you can finish it in exactly 6 minutes, which is the duration of a Golem's life at Rank 1 Summon Goldem.
  
  2 Sulfur Golems. That's already half the amount of Sulfur Golem Crystals you have. 2 runs of Shadow Cast City Advanced and you're out of Crystals. That means going back to Stones of Sliab Cuilin and mining more Stones to make more Crystals.
  
  If you were to run Theater Missions, with buddies. Every scene switch, you would lose your Golem. There are 3 scene switches in The King's Request and Guardian of Avon. In one run of these missions, you would lose already over half your Golem Crystals. You would be useless for a second run of these Theather Missions in scenes 2 and scenes 3 (the final boss), because as I said, Summon Golem is your best skill.
  
  And you want a nerf?

  
  
  The g13 director doesn't want to nerf the damage. His goal is to instead, limit the crystal's availability, so that they will be used in certain situations and when they do, they kick ass. The biggest limit to golems, besides time and unable to heal hp... is always cutscenes or moving to another map. Though the director did agree that the size shouldn't be too massive.
  
  It drains real fast, which is why even I don't use golems grossly. When it becomes situational or having to deal things in a short time basis, it's a good time to use it.
  
  I mean, with the impending implement of nerfing the availability of crystals (such as lower finest/fine drop rate and even the silab cuilin golem not always dropping it at a high rate), the golem crystals will become rarer. Heck, there are plans that not even the end chest or monsters will no longer drop Snow Golem crystals!
  
  And because it's rare, if I do choose to use it... it better be dang good.
  
  If the crystal is rare and weak, why bother with summon golem at all? To just deal some damage? haha, such a waste.
  
  In any event, I'm sure there are some people who would be more than glad to remove the skill from the game or make it so weak that there's no point in ranking it, however these people are the ones I'm trying to ensure don't have their way when it comes to golem nerfing. And also glad too that the Director feels the same way, in regards to damage.
  
  Even if he plans to make it that the only way to get Snow Golem crystal is to mine in Silab Cuilin and monsters/end chest no longer dropping Snow Golem Crystals, not even the hard mode cuilin golem, that's fine by me.
• Koishi wrote on 2011-02-03 20:46

  Quote from Kenero;318945:

  Both thunderer and golems when behind a barrier spike is protected. Heck, let's make it that when thunderers are behind barrier spikes, their thunder instantly cancels, no? Because being protected would be too OP.

  
  
  Because Thunder really deals as much as golems, right? Or at the very least, golems don't require you to max multiple Int-giving skills along with Thunder/LM.
  
  

  Let's even go further to mob positioning. Thunder chain spreads well, that also matches in that golems have limited mobility before being forced out of control.

  
  
  Yeah, if the mob is bunched up together. The golem user doesn't care about that, as in most cases the WM will hit everything in the room. Also, being bow range away from the golem to control it is not a limitation in any practical sense.
  
  

  Blaze? Smack right into the enemy, dealing 10~15k damage in less than 0.8 s load time.
  

  
  
  Not only you're assuming that you're rank 1 with 600 Int, but that you're proficient at using the skill in the first place. That surely compares to a 650 ttl player tossing out golems with abandon right?
  
  Your comparisons are reaching at best and pathetic at worst.
• M wrote on 2011-02-03 20:46

  Quote from Zatrox;318961:

  I'm pretty surprised no melee player has even considered a Double-Team position with golems.
  I've done it before, just alternate WM's between you and your golem. There, you're stronger than the person who just uses golem!
  
  Only limitation is that you need a good computer to handle the transition times, but most of the hardcore players have one anyway...

  
  
  Yeah and the fact that they'd need to spend yet another 700 AP tacked onto their 4000 AP spent just to do that lol But yeah, it's true, there's nothing stopping a warrior from using golems.
  
  Additionally one could pose the argument "as an earth alchemist it's my only offensive attack!" lol in which people would undoubtedly respond "expand your skills!" xD
• Phunkie wrote on 2011-02-03 20:48

  Quote from Kenero;318964:

  And because it's rare, if I do choose to use it... it better be dang good.

  
  
  Just like any intensive AP-skill that you rank (Blaze, Thunder).
  Just like any hard Life skill that you spend large amounts of money on (Blacksmithing, Potion Making).
  
  For something that lasts 6 minutes, is annoying to get (mining Crystals) and rank (White Herbs, anyone? not everybody can buy them) and dies real quickly because you're WMing most of the time...
  
  It better be dang good.
• Zeo wrote on 2011-02-03 20:49
  Why are people complaining about the skills being too "overpowered" ? They worked really hard to get the skills to r1, so are the Summon Golem users too, they worked hard training the skill up to r1 as well. They shouldn't be nerfed, in my opinion. It really piss me off when people keep saying they should be nerfed just cause they're "OMG WTFHAX TOO OP!!! QQ"
  
  If people are saying those need to be nerfed.. windmill is overpowered too, so lets nerf the windmill as well. Oh! Smash is sooo OP as well, lets nerf them as well, and oooh!! Blacksmith makes too much money for the owner, lets nerf it as well! Blah blah blah...
• M wrote on 2011-02-03 20:50
  Since we're all throwing our opinions out there, one more thing I hate about super golems is their high WM reach on a level 700 player, who knows little about OTHER fields of play... he doesn't respect the thunderer, fireballer, blazer, ice spearer, crash shotter, or flamer using players (and forgive me if I left anyone else out) that need the mobs bunched together to do any sufficient contribution to the party's damage.
• Phunkie wrote on 2011-02-03 20:50

  Quote from Zeo;318970:

  Why are people complaining about the skills being too "overpowered" ? They worked really hard to get the skills to r1, so are the Summon Golem users too, they worked hard training the skill up to r1 as well. They shouldn't be nerfed, in my opinion. It really piss me off when people keep saying they should be nerfed just cause they're "OMG WTFHAX TOO OP!!! QQ"
  
  If people are saying those need to be nerfed.. windmill is overpowered too, so lets nerf the windmill as well. Oh! Smash is sooo OP as well, lets nerf them as well, and oooh!! Blacksmith makes too much money for the owner, lets nerf it as well! Blah blah blah...

  
  
  I second this.
  
  Windmill is one crazy skill. Does it make sense to nerf it?
  
  Probably not.
  
  

  Quote from Maia;318974:

  Since we're all throwing our opinions out there, one more thing I hate about super golems is their high WM reach on a level 700 player, who knows little about OTHER fields of play... he doesn't respect the thunderer, fireballer, blazer, ice spearer, crash shotter, or flamer using players (and forgive me if I left anyone else out) that need the mobs bunched together to do any sufficient contribution to the party's damage.

  
  
  You are generalizing.
  
  Not everybody does this.
• Koishi wrote on 2011-02-03 20:51

  Quote from Phunkie;318956:

  This is a test done by the friendly folks over at Mabidata.
  
  
  
  http://mabidata.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=456#p4034
  
  This is mining Stones of Sliab Cuiling at Basic Level. Take note that a level 600 person (assuming that's how much AP you need to rank Alchemy Mastery, Clay Mastery and Summon Golem to Rank 1) cannot enter Hard Mode missions yet. They need a few hundred more levels.
  
  This makes getting Snow Golems even harder.
  
  But fine, say they stick to Sulfur Golems, which are still pretty darn good.
  
  ~8% per mined rock is okay. Not exceptionally. For every 100 times you mine, you will get 8 Fine Cuilin Stones. You need 2 to make a Sulfur Golem Crystals. If you succeed all of them, that's 4 Sulfur Golem Crystals.
  
  Say, Summon Golem is your best skill; the only thing you use to fight in Mabinogi. And you like to run Shadow Cast City Advanced (remember, you don't have Hard yet). It will take you at least 2 Golems to finish the mission. I doubt that you can finish it in exactly 6 minutes, which is the duration of a Golem's life at Rank 1 Summon Goldem.
  
  2 Sulfur Golems. That's already half the amount of Sulfur Golem Crystals you have. 2 runs of Shadow Cast City Advanced and you're out of Crystals. That means going back to Stones of Sliab Cuilin and mining more Stones to make more Crystals.
  
  If you were to run Theater Missions, with buddies. Every scene switch, you would lose your Golem. There are 3 scene switches in The King's Request and Guardian of Avon. In one run of these missions, you would lose already over half your Golem Crystals. You would be useless for a second run of these Theather Missions in scenes 2 and scenes 3 (the final boss), because as I said, Summon Golem is your best skill.
  
  And you want a nerf?

  
  
  Never mind that you can either get R6 Synth (grindy yes, but guess what so is WM, deal with it), for an extra 76 AP, and clone your crystals. Or have someone do it for you. Crystal quantity is NOT a limiting factor.
  
  Having to grind in Silab Cullin is surely comparable to shelling out millions on enchants, only to be trumped by a 700 ttl guy who can make a profit on his expenses easy because running things is so painless?
  
  Yeah, it may suck to have to resummon your golem every room. Deal with it.
  
  

  Just like any intensive AP-skill that you rank (Blaze, Thunder).
  Just like any hard Life skill that you spend large amounts of money on (Blacksmithing, Potion Making).
  
  For something that lasts 6 minutes, is annoying rank to get (mining Crystals) and rank (White Herbs, anyone? not everybody can buy them) and dies real quickly because you're WMing most of the time...

  
  
  Do you honestly, truly, from the bottom of your heart, think that ranking and using Golems is comparable to BLACKSMITHING?!
  
  You know what's annoying? Ranking life skills for every bit of dex you can get. Spending hours and days and millions hunting enchants for every bit of max damage you can get. Having to pay for repairs (Cylinder costs are negligible). Having to pay for pots to stay alive. Having to get MP pots.
  
  Seriously, golem users are incredibly spoiled, and it shows in this thread.
• Phunkie wrote on 2011-02-03 20:55

  Quote from Koishi;318978:

  Never mind that you can either get R6 Synth (grindy yes, but guess what so is WM, deal with it), for an extra 76 AP, and clone your crystals. Or have someone do it for you. Crystal quantity is NOT a limiting factor.
  
  Having to grind in Silab Cullin is surely comparable to shelling out millions on enchants, only to be trumped by a 700 ttl guy who can make a profit on his expenses easy because running things is so painless?

  
  
  Ranking Synthesis takes time and money. Not every R1 Golem user will do it. I sure won't, for a long time.
  
  Crystal quantity is a limiting factor. For someone that has money to rank 1 Synthesis (when it comes out) and to buy all his crystals and even Magic Golems while he's at it, that's awesome for him.
  
  Just like the guy who dishes out money to buy all the best end-game enchants and enchant protection potions and repair protection potions. Who cares? Not everybody has the time, AP or RL cash for those kind of situations.
  
  For a person who makes his own crystals, who doesn't have Synthesis, it is a limiting factor. I don't buy Golem Crystals all the time, they're expensive when bought in large quantities.
• M wrote on 2011-02-03 20:55

  Quote from Phunkie;318975:

  
  You are generalizing.
  
  Not everybody does this.

  
  
  Nobody does what? crash shots/fireballs/etc? Surely you don't mean that... so you mean use golems, run into the center of the mobs and WMs? HELL YES THEY DO x.x lol I hardly run with any alchemists BECAUSE of this... happens WAY too much
  
  

  Quote from Koishi;318978:

  Never mind that you can either get R6 Synth (grindy yes, but guess what so is WM, deal with it), for an extra 76 AP, and clone your crystals. Or have someone do it for you. Crystal quantity is NOT a limiting factor.
  
  Having to grind in Silab Cullin is surely comparable to shelling out millions on enchants, only to be trumped by a 700 ttl guy who can make a profit on his expenses easy because running things is so painless?

  
  
  Having to run a mission and getting exp/money along the way to get stones/crystals isn't comparable to losing items/money on enchants lol you gain more than you lose spamming for crystals/stones, whereas enchants can leave you penniless and gearless if you fail. Even if you succeed a good warrior set can run you over 10m.
  
  As for the cloning thing, I have to make a point in favor of the alchemists, you can't clone snow golem crystals... so that point isn't super valid :<