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Justified wrote on 2011-02-12 19:24
[UB]The debate on Hailstorm's usefulness drags on, a month past G13's release. After looking past those screenshots of 10k damage, we realize that it isn't as awesome as we once thought. At the same time, many people overlooked Bolt Fusion's potential. This is a guide that will attempt to help you choose which is better suited for your needs.
In the below calcuations, Int is a constant and therefore will not be factored into the calculations. I have also decided that the Staff Artisan is worthless, as 3% is not very large, and a capped Int roll will negate that anyways.
Also, for Bolt Fusion and Firebolt, the spells are cast repeatedly until they consume the same amount of time as Hailstorm. This is to make the damage and mana cost difference more apparent, and less arbitrary than pure damage per second/mana per second figures.
[COLOR="navy"][SIZE="6"]Hailstorm[/SIZE]
Hailstorm
AP : 438
Base Mana Usage : 170
Base Casting Time : 36.5
Base Damage : ((300) x 6.5 ) x 6 = 11,700
Ice Mastery
AP : 156
Mana Reduction : 20%
Damage Increase : 15%
Other Boosts
Master of Ice : 10%
Staff Upgrades : 13%
Result
AP : 594
Mana Usage : 136
Casting Time : 36.5
Damage : 11,700 * (1 + .25 + .13 + .15) = 17,901
Notes
Immobile while casting.
Staff usage prevents Mana Evaporation.
Charge and Blaze unavailable.
Intermediate Magic not readily available.
Intermediate Magic range shortened.
Bolt Magic element-restricted if using Intermediate Magic.
Lower defense, two less enchant slots without Shield.
43% Critical chance with Stiff Deadly Trinity Staff.
[SIZE="6"]Bolt Fusion[/SIZE]
Firebolt
AP : 109
Base Mana Usage : 6
Base Casting Time : 2
Base Damage : (120) * (6.5 + 4.8 + 3.3 + 2.1 + 1) = 2,124
Icebolt
AP : 92
Base Mana Usage : 4
Base Casting Time : 1.5
Base Damage : (80) * (5) = 400
Fire Mastery
AP : 156
Mana Reduction : 20%
Damage Increase : 15%
Bolt Mastery
AP : 124
Damage Increase : 15%
Bolt Fusion
AP : 279
Damage Increase : 15%
Other Boosts
Hebona Set : 15%
Bolt Magic Master : 15%
Ice Wand Upgrade : 28%
Fire Wand Upgrade : -24% Cast Time (185 path)
Result
AP : 760
Mana Usage :
44 * 3.5 = 154 with Crown
44 * 5 = 220 with Phoenix
Casting Time :
10 * 3.5 = 35 with Crown
7.5 * 5 = 37.5 with Phoenix
Damage :
[ ( ( (2,124) * 1.15) + (400) ) * (1 + .15 + .30 + .15 + .28) ] * 3.5 = 18,704 with Crown
[ ( ( (2,124) * 1.15) + (400) ) * (1 + .15 + .30 + .15) ] * 5 = 22,741 with Phoenix
Notes
Mobile while casting.
Wand usage activates Mana Evaporation.
Wand durability decreases drastically (around 0.1 durabilty per full discharge).
Charge and Blaze enabled.
Intermediate Magic enabled.
Intermediate Magic range maximized.
Higher defense, two additional enchant slots with Shield.
35-40% Critical chance with Stiff Earnest Wand + Stiff Earnest Shield.
[SIZE="6"]CC+4 Firebolt[/SIZE]
Firebolt
AP : 109
Base Mana Usage :
6 with CC Exploit
6 * 5 * 1.1 = 33 with Normal MP Usage
Base Casting Time : 2
Base Damage : 120 * 6.5 = 780
Fire Mastery
AP : 156
Mana Reduction : 20%
Damage Increase : 15%
Bolt Mastery
AP : 124
Damage Increase : 15%
Other Boosts
Hebona Set : 15%
Bolt Magic Master : 15%
Result
AP : 389
Mana Usage :
5.1 * 18 = 91.8 with CC Exploit
28 * 18 = 504 with Normal MP Cost
Casting Time : 2 * 18 = 36
Damage : [ (780 * 1.15) * (1 + .15 + .30) ] * 18 = 23,412
Notes
Same as Bolt Fusion.
TL:DR - Comparison
Best - Second - Worst
Hailstorm
594 AP / 136 MP / 36.5s / 17,901 Damage
[ 3.73 MP/s -- 490.44 Dmg/s -- 131.63 Dmg/MP ]
Crown+28% Bolt Fusion
760 AP / 154 MP / 35s / 18,704 Damage
[ 4.4 MP/s -- 534.4 Dmg/s -- 121.45 Dmg/MP ]
Phoenix-24% Bolt Fusion
760 AP / 220 MP / 37.5s / 22,741 Damage
[ 5.87 MP/s -- 606.43 Dmg/s -- 103.34 Dmg/MP ]
CC+4 Firebolt (MP10)
389 AP / 180 MP / 36s / 23,412 Damage
[ 5 MP/s -- 650.33 Dmg/s -- 130.07 Dmg/MP ]
CC+4 Firebolt (Normal MP)
389 AP / 504 MP / 36s / 23,412 Damage
[ 14 MP/s -- 650.33 Dmg/s -- 46.45 Dmg/MP ]
[SIZE="5"]Conclusion[/SIZE]
Hailstorm has some merits, boasting a larger Dmg/MP number, with a smaller MP/s. However, it sacrifices damage to meet those ends. The versatility of the Trinity Staff is still debatable, even within the realm of elite mages. Some praise it's ability to meld seamlessly into Alchemy/Melee combat with the ability to switch weapons and choose an element at will, while others lament the build up time and lower performance of Intermediate Magic.
Also note that the Bolt Fusion skill does not actually increase your damage by 15% because of the damage formula. It's actually closer to 10% or less depending on how many effects you have. Thus, you can choose to skip ranking the skill and Bolt Fusion will still run close to Hailstorm damage, but at a total cost of 481AP.
All in all, my opinion is that Hailstorm is only useful as a cost-effective skill. If you're looking to cut back on MP usage and repairs, then it won't disappoint. But, if you want the extra bang to dominate your foes, you have better choices.
[SIZE="5"]Showcase[/SIZE]
If you're one of the people who have ranked these skills and feel strongly that one is more useful, more powerful, or more fun than the other, feel free to post a video of yourself smiting your foes!
No foreign videos please, since we have no clue what rank or bonuses they have.
[ I'll post some of mine with Bolt Fusion later. And eventually when I get Hailstorm ranked. ]
[/UB][/COLOR]
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unorfind wrote on 2011-02-12 20:46
what's up with all those strange numbers ?:P
Base Damage : ((300) x 6.5 ) x 6 = 11,700
????? can somone explain it
Base Casting Time : 36.5 ???
Its 6.5 sec initial casting and 0.7 crystal charge at r1 really confused with all of this
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Justified wrote on 2011-02-12 20:57
Quote from unorfind;332777:
what's up with all those strange numbers ?:P
Base Damage : ((300) x 6.5 ) x 6 = 11,700
????? can somone explain it
Base Casting Time : 36.5 ???
Its 6.5 sec initial casting and 0.7 crystal charge at r1 really confused with all of this
Rank 1 Charge = 300
Full Charge Multiplier = 6.5
6 Full Charges maximum = * 6
Total damage from one use = 11,700
Base Casting Time = Base Loading time (6.5) + Duration (30) = 36.5
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unorfind wrote on 2011-02-12 21:14
ok now its clear we dont have g13 here yet sadly ,so I was thinking about hailstorm and magic bolt fusion so far I invested most of my ap into balze and th but g13 nerfs it (blaze) so I was wondering invest in hail or blaze hmmm bolt fusion might be nice alternative but bit too much ap costly with all masteries
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Roy Mustang wrote on 2011-02-12 21:44
Which Bolt Fusion are you doing in this study for the record. There's 3 flavors after all and each flavor will have different damages. Is it Ice + Lightning or Fire + Lightning or Ice + Fire.
Looks like I need to redo my Crown Ice Wand +6% charging time and +17% magic Damage. Someone recommended I should up it for casting time so I can do N+Ice Spear which I realize now was terrible advice. QQ
Btw, What is this 135 Path for Phoenix Firewand?! The wiki doesn't have it. What's so good about that upgrade path?
Do you mean 185 path?
Lightning Elemental Acceleration 1 20 Casting Speed +3% 0~1
Lightning Elemental Acceleration 2 30 Casting Speed +4% 1~2
Lightning Elemental Acceleration 3 35 Casting Speed +5% 2~3
Lightning Elemental Acceleration 4 50 Casting Speed +6% 3~4
135 Path is (20+30+35+50) 135 Path = 3+4+5+6 = +18% Casting Speed
185 Path is (20+30+35+50+50) 185 Path = 3+4+5+6+6 = 24% Casting Speed
Change your Guide to 185 Path otherwise it makes you look like a fool when you do the actual calculations.
Btw do keep in mind you lose 10% Casting Speed with your Crown Ice Upgrade while you gain Speed with the Phoenix Firewand Upgrade. I don't find your times accurate as the Phoenix Wand casting should be faster shouldn't it and the Crown Ice wand should be slower?
Please clarify your guide and your points. As is, there seems to be a bit of inaccuracies in it.
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Justified wrote on 2011-02-12 22:07
Should've been obvious that it was Ice-Fire since the skills listed were Icebolt and Firebolt.
Since Hailstorm is a single-focus skill, it makes sense to apply Ice-Fire to it. Ice-Lightning Fusion is garbage for any serious run, and Fire-Lightning Fusion (while stronger than Ice-Fire) can be tricky due to the need for closely packed targets. Also, I'm not sure how the chained damage reduction works for that, so I'd rather not do half-assed calculations.
As for the wands, casting speed only affects magic of the same element. Icebolt has a bast time of 1.5, and Firebolt has a base time of 2.
Crown Ice Wand's -10% cast speed only applies to Icebolt. This knocks it down to 1.65 seconds, but since Firebolt is 2 seconds that doesn't matter.
Phoenix Fire Wand's +24% cast speed puts Firebolt at roughly 1.5. So 1.5 is the optimal casting speed, the +40% cast speed path is unneccesary (unless you plan to cast Fireball as well).
As for the totals, Phoenix Fusion appears slower because it casts 5 times. I adjusted both Fusions to ~36 seconds so that the numbers mirror Hailstorm. Crown Fusion only casts 3.5 times, which explains why it has a lower time.
The only error I made was the name of the 185 upgrade path. All other calculations are correct.
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Roy Mustang wrote on 2011-02-12 22:12
Quote from Justified;332941:
Should've been obvious that it was Ice-Fire since the skills listed were Icebolt and Firebolt.
Since Hailstorm is a single-focus skill, it makes sense to apply Ice-Fire to it. Ice-Lightning Fusion is garbage for any serious run, and Fire-Lightning Fusion (while stronger than Ice-Fire) can be tricky due to the need for closely packed targets. Also, I'm not sure how the chained damage reduction works for that, so I'd rather not do half-assed calculations.
As for the wands, casting speed only affects magic of the same element. Icebolt has a bast time of 1.5, and Firebolt has a base time of 2.
Crown Ice Wand's -10% cast speed only applies to Icebolt. This knocks it down to 1.65 seconds, but since Firebolt is 2 seconds that doesn't matter.
Phoenix Fire Wand's +24% cast speed puts Firebolt at roughly 1.5. So 1.5 is the optimal casting speed, the +40% cast speed path is unneccesary (unless you plan to cast Fireball as well).
The only error I made was the name of the 185 upgrade path. All other calculations are correct.
How was I supposed to know Ice + Lightning was Garbage? How was I supposed to know any of what you mentioned. You made this guide assuming everyone here knows everything there is to know about magic. Assumptions assumptions assumptions. Assume and you make an Ass of you and Me.
Thanks for clarifying that.
For the Record there is also a 235 path which gives +36% Casting Speed at the cost of only 3 dura. Can you factor that in somehow or would it have very little factor in this?
Lassar Type Elemental Acceleration -> Lightning Elemental Acceleration 2 -> Lightning Elemental Acceleration 3 -> Lightning Elemental Acceleration 4 -> Lightning Elemental Acceleration 4 = (70+30+35+50+50) = 235 -> (15+4+5+6+6) = 36%
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Justified wrote on 2011-02-12 22:16
Quote from kingofrunes;332952:
How was I supposed to know Ice + Lightning was Garbage? How was I supposed to know any of what you mentioned. You made this guide assuming everyone here knows everything there is to know about magic. Assumptions assumptions assumptions. Assume and you make an Ass of you and Me.
Thanks for clarifying that.
I'm not here to teach you every aspect of how a skill works. I'm here to elaborate on it objectively.
Magic Fusion was introduced somewhere around G4? And it has always been Bolt damage 1 + Bolt damage 2. That puts Ice-Lightning at a mere 280 base damage regardless of charges, and not really worth using in comparison to Intermediate Magic.
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Roy Mustang wrote on 2011-02-12 22:17
Quote from Justified;332961:
I'm not here to teach you every aspect of how a skill works. I'm here to elaborate on it objectively.
Magic Fusion was introduced somewhere around G4? And it has always been Bolt damage 1 + Bolt damage 2. That puts Ice-Lightning at a mere 280 base damage regardless of charges, and not really worth using in comparison to Intermediate Magic.
Isn't that the purpose of a guide to help gain awareness of why something is better than the other?
Also can you take this into consideration?
For the Record there is also a 235 path which gives +36% Casting Speed at the cost of only 3 dura. Can you factor that in somehow or would it have very little factor in this?
Lassar Type Elemental Acceleration -> Lightning Elemental Acceleration 2 -> Lightning Elemental Acceleration 3 -> Lightning Elemental Acceleration 4 -> Lightning Elemental Acceleration 4 = (70+30+35+50+50) = 235 -> (15+4+5+6+6) = 36%
I haven't looked into fusion much so it's guides like this that I look to for this information.
EDIT: I do realize it came out in G4 but I didn't give it any attention as it required 2 people to even consider pull it off which didn't fit in with my style so now that I can do it solo I'm looking into it now and didn't realize which Fusion Bolt was more powerful than others.
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abc33kr wrote on 2011-02-12 22:23
inb4 arsik?
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EndlessDreams wrote on 2011-02-12 22:24
Where is the rosemary gloves calculation? It isn't like those are impossible to make with the duped webs nowadays.
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Justified wrote on 2011-02-12 22:25
Performance-wise, the 235 path will be identical to the 185. As mentioned, the only difference is if you plan to Fireball, or cast normal Firebolt without Fusion. At +24% cast speed, Firebolt will match Icebolt speed, so anything past that is negated.
Because of the high Durability usage of Ice-Fire, that 3 Durability is very important unless you plan on repairing very frequently.
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Roy Mustang wrote on 2011-02-12 22:42
Quote from Justified;332988:
Performance-wise, the 235 path will be identical to the 185. As mentioned, the only difference is if you plan to Fireball, or cast normal Firebolt without Fusion. At +24% cast speed, Firebolt will match Icebolt speed, so anything past that is negated.
Because of the high Durability usage of Ice-Fire, that 3 Durability is very important unless you plan on repairing very frequently.
Ah I see. Thank you for your clarifications. It's greatly appreciated.
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Joker wrote on 2011-02-12 22:46
Wheres Ice mastery for Bolt fusion fool.. you forgot it..
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Roy Mustang wrote on 2011-02-12 22:53
Quote from Joker;333047:
Wheres Ice mastery for Bolt fusion fool.. you forgot it..
Oh Woops, my bad. He does mention it in the hailstorm section and caries down the calculations into the Bolt Fusion Section.