General Melee Discussion - WM is not being nerfed in G14

• Koishi wrote on 2011-04-08 21:53

  Quote from Justified;401846:

  If you look at the damage, it's still decent. For a well-geared player, it's damage can rival Intermediate Magic DPS.
  Compared to Crash Shot, it isn't limited to a certain number of targets, and the damage is thoroughly spread out.

  
  
  Again, the classic "assumption of best case". A well geared meleer has spent a few million on their gear. And it assumes they have the skill level and connection to maintain Int magic DPS without dying. The reason why this discussion often fails to go nowhere is because people gloss over the fact that using Interemediate magic is not only safer than using Windmill, but because of the ability to offhand shields without losing damage (obviously Giants don't have this problem though), not to mention not losing 10% of your HP per use, and having a massive MP pool for Mana Shield, it is also far more forgiving of mistakes.
  
  

  Classic example was Ciar Advance, where you could reduce sextuple aggro down to double aggro if you knew how to do it properly.

  
  
  And? Mages and even rangers could blow up mobs without getting aggroed at all if played correctly
  
  

  Especially with the reduced effort put into new content, pet play isn't as vital as it was in Ciar Advance. Mobs often aren't mixed enough to require it, and Assault Slash reduces the thread from ranged attacks. Melee mobs are also retarded, they no longer stall or weave around you to add to confusion, instead just charging forth repeatedly, and sometimes loading Smash to make it even easier.

  
  
  Shadow mobs are far more mixed than they were in Ciar. Alchemist/Wizard, Range, Melee, and Lancer and Fighter mobs weave around you all the time, and Warrior mobs even more so. Some mobs can bluff Counter, with stationary Defense, leading to your WM bouncing right off and you dying. Ghost of Parth mobs laugh at WM. Oh yeah, you can't remotely threaten a one-shot against Hard Mode mobs outside Tara, and will miss a two-shot if you don't crit with both WMs, unless you have 350+ max damage.
  
  
  
  
  

  With Advance Heavy Stander you're actually pressed to deal high amounts of damage and protect yourself, instead of just WMWMWMWM MAGMAGMAGMAG FBFBFBFB
  

  
  
  That pretty much is advanced heavy stander battles in a nutshell - spam DPS until target is dead. Just replace WM with Smash.
  
  Also, can people stop citing Ranald's in-game text? At least keep in mind that the skill is also called the Crown Jewel of Melee, but that doesn't help the argument they are putting forward does it?
• User495 wrote on 2011-04-08 21:56

  Quote from Dracius;401852:

  When you're in deadly, it's logical (Haha, some real logic in Mabinogi) that you get weaker, because you're exhausted and can't tank anymore hits.
  Having Windmill get stronger when you're in deadly is like having Healing heal more when you're nearly at max HP (Redundant, no?)
  
  Either way, if this was real (I think?), it's stop all those annoying people who do nothing but run up to monsters and Windmill. If anybody bothered to read the text that Ranald says when you get Windmill (For Humans), he says that it's a last resort, when you're surrounded by monsters and can't do anything. If Windmill was meant to be spammed, there wouldn't even be any health-decrease.
  
  Sure, it makes one hell of an attack skill, but it wasn't designed that way.

  
  
  what I see is again combat adrenaline (iunno if there's a better word for it) but for "realism" irl you'd likely have a surge of adrenaline rush if you were fighting for your life, which is why getting stronger in terms of damage in deadly makes sense
  you can't really compare healing with it seeing as there's really no logical reason for a heal t get more powerful when you don't need the heal anymore by then
  
  and as you said Last Resort, it's not much of a last resort if you're in deadly and it does LESS damage
• Tablo wrote on 2011-04-08 21:58

  Quote from Alexane;401799:

  Really hope that's sarcasm because at 10% its 180 hp per wm for infra 65 for humans, And i personally hate magic hate it's repairs and hate mana pots, i will eventually out damage mages with my melee/range even if it takes awhile.

  
  
  I pot poison and spam hp30's to keep me alive in missions (infinite trans \o/). of course, for missions like scc/their method i don't do that. for most of rath missions, i do (well, started doing that. just went dk yesterday). what did you think was sarcastic about my reply? I'm a bit confused here. did you think that i was a mage? or do you think pot poison-dk is not worth the money spent on potions?
• Justified wrote on 2011-04-08 22:03

  Quote from Koishi;401859:

  Again, the classic "assumption of best case". A well geared meleer has spent a few million on their gear. And it assumes they have the skill level and connection to maintain Int magic DPS without dying. The reason why this discussion often fails to go nowhere is because people gloss over the fact that using Interemediate magic is not only safer than using Windmill, but because of the ability to offhand shields without losing damage (obviously Giants don't have this problem though), not to mention not losing 10% of your HP per use, and having a massive MP pool for Mana Shield, it is also far more forgiving of mistakes.

  
  
  I didn't say it was superior. I only said the damage is better.
  
  I am both a mage and a warrior. I've spent over 3000 AP in magic skills, and probably only around 1000 AP in melee skills. Even with only 200 Str, my Windmill DPS is still higher than my Intermediate Magic with 700 Int and fully upgraded wands.
  
  It's strength is DPS, invincibility, and AI manipulation.
  The way I see it, you're saying it's not overpowered because it's not the best at everything. Why does it have to do everything to be overpowered?
  
  Also, AP is more valuable than gold IMO. I'd gladly pay 25m to get 2000AP, but maybe that's just me.
• Nibnibnib wrote on 2011-04-08 22:08
  Why do people believe everything they read?
• Koishi wrote on 2011-04-08 22:10

  Quote from Justified;401872:

  I didn't say it was superior. I only said the damage is better.
  
  I am both a mage and a warrior. I've spent over 3000 AP in magic skills, and probably only around 1000 AP in melee skills. Even with only 200 Str, my Windmill DPS is still higher than my Intermediate Magic with 700 Int and fully upgraded wands.
  
  It's strength is DPS, invincibility, and AI manipulation.
  The way I see it, you're saying it's not overpowered because it's not the best at everything. Why does it have to do everything to be overpowered?

  
  
  On a fundamental level, I see the DPS argument as illusory, because to reach that high DPS, you have to be playing under far better conditions than you do to achieve magic DPS. To maintain that DPS without dying takes a high level of skill at pet manipulation, that many (most?) players cannot reach. If you reach high DPS with WM, that's great, but that doesn't count the times you lie dead on the ground because you made a mistake in deadly.
  The invincibility is great, but to get the most out of it you still need pet play.
  AI manipulation? I still get aggroed by at least one monster after I WM them. I've personally never experienced it where I WM a mob and they suddenly go into alert mode so I can WM them again.
  
  Anything that punishes single mistakes with death is certainly not overpowered.
• Oizen wrote on 2011-04-08 22:11

  Quote from DarkLord7;401858:

  Fine. I want massive wm range and damage, since I am a giant with muscular, long arms. Giants are twice the size of humans. All of our melee should be 5x the damage of humans. How's that for logic?
  And since we are bringing "logic" into this conversation, why the hell isn't summon golem a magic skill, hmm?
  
  Balance is way more important than logic. T.T
  
  EDIT: Bunshin and Berserker please.

  
  Mages are still butthurt about the existance of alchemy?
  lol.
  You know, there is an odd way to summon Magical Creatures to fight for you, you just need to buy them from the Cash shop first. xP
  
  But back on the topic of wndmil, the damage right now is fine, its how damn abuseable it is that bugs me.
• MSZShadow wrote on 2011-04-08 22:14

  Quote from qaccy;401593:

  
  
  [B]You're joking, right? The invincibility ALONE made WM a godly skill, even before factoring in how it can hit a limitless amount of targets, and ignores protection for critical (the only melee skill to do so, I might add). A buff? I lol'd hard.
  
  As for me, I love it. Sucks for all the people who built their characters around WM though. And people who use Avenger. :x

  
  
  So, it's like Ice Spear except same/weaker damage and less enemies hit?
  
  In other words...
  Golem wm needed the nerf.
  Meleer wm needs a buff, since DevCat is clearly not too fond of making other primary skills for meleers.
  
  

  Quote from OizenX;401883:

  Mages are still butthurt about the existance of alchemy?

  
  
  Lol? Since when is he a mage?
  
  I agree with Mal, though. It only makes sense that mages get some sort of summoning skill. Still, because DevCat likes doing things backwards, I'm left with Golem.
• User495 wrote on 2011-04-08 22:15

  Quote from Justified;401872:

  I didn't say it was superior. I only said the damage is better.
  
  I am both a mage and a warrior. I've spent over 3000 AP in magic skills, and probably only around 1000 AP in melee skills. Even with only 200 Str, my Windmill DPS is still higher than my Intermediate Magic with 700 Int and fully upgraded wands.
  
  It's strength is DPS, invincibility, and AI manipulation.
  The way I see it, you're saying it's not overpowered because it's not the best at everything. Why does it have to do everything to be overpowered?
  
  Also, AP is more valuable than gold IMO. I'd gladly pay 25m to get 2000AP, but maybe that's just me.

  
  
  I don't see the DPS in WM, it's the same as smash, and alot of times Smash does more damage even if WM ignores protection (and doesn't take 10% of your HP)
  
  Invincibility only happens if something gets hit by WM, most other AoE skills of the same rank probably would've killed the enemy by the time that WM's invincibility takes affect
  the Ai manipulation is just a pause, they go back to doing what they normally do if you leave it alone for a few seconds (so it's not really anywhere near overpowered)
  
  so unless the skill freezes you or render the enemies completely harmless or is best at everything, I don't really see the OP-ness of it
  
  

  Quote from Nibnibnib;401875:

  Why do people believe everything they read?

  
  
  why can't we just contribute to the discussion?
• Joker wrote on 2011-04-08 22:29

  Quote from Sumpfkraut;401586:

  Aren't there any other melee playstyles?
  
  
  It's pretty sad if the most elegant of fighting styles only revolves around a single ridiculously overpowered alteration of a Capoeira move. That's what Windmill looks like on YT-videos at any rate~

  
  
  /sees a future martial arts / knuckle playstyle?
  
  

  Quote from Alexane;401651:

  
  If done right you wont die a lot or have ****ty dps, even if your connection is not 100% perfect.

  
  
  I Lol'd Thats what you think.... try it on wireless on a connection that jumps out every lil bit ping jumps to 2-3x ur normal ping and where ur best ping on mabi's connection is 120 vs a normal day where its 200 GG alexane try loading wm ...... or summoning a pet ... AT ALL
  
  If you want to be pro at mabi and dont have under 90 MS ping on mabi servers.... or near lagless you will NEVER be as pro as someone who has said connection
  
  mabis playstyle is all about either 1 hitting them so they CANT hit u..... or having lagless so you can actually use the system....98% of all my deaths are ping related...
  oh.. inb4youtellmetogetbetterinternet theres only dialup and wireless in our area ^^
  
  PS: you prob didn't mean to make me rant but eh.. it happens srry >.>
  /endrant
• User495 wrote on 2011-04-08 22:40

  Quote from Joker;401908:

  /sees a future martial arts / knuckle playstyle?
  
  
  
  I Lol'd Thats what you think.... try it on wireless on a connection that jumps out every lil bit ping jumps to 2-3x ur normal ping and where ur best ping on mabi's connection is 120 vs a normal day where its 200 GG alexane try loading wm ...... or summoning a pet ... AT ALL
  
  If you want to be pro at mabi and dont have under 90 MS ping on mabi servers.... or near lagless you will NEVER be as pro as someone who has said connection
  
  mabis playstyle is all about either 1 hitting them so they CANT hit u..... or having lagless so you can actually use the system....98% of all my deaths are ping related...
  oh.. inb4youtellmetogetbetterinternet theres only dialup and wireless in our area ^^
  
  PS: you prob didn't mean to make me rant but eh.. it happens srry >.>
  /endrant

  
  
  noone should tell someone to "get better internet" in the first place, I see it as abit stuck up and inconsiderate if that was even suggested anyways
• Justified wrote on 2011-04-08 22:40

  Quote from Koishi;401880:

  On a fundamental level, I see the DPS argument as illusory, because to reach that high DPS, you have to be playing under far better conditions than you do to achieve magic DPS. To maintain that DPS without dying takes a high level of skill at pet manipulation, that many (most?) players cannot reach. If you reach high DPS with WM, that's great, but that doesn't count the times you lie dead on the ground because you made a mistake in deadly.
  The invincibility is great, but to get the most out of it you still need pet play.
  AI manipulation? I still get aggroed by at least one monster after I WM them. I've personally never experienced it where I WM a mob and they suddenly go into alert mode so I can WM them again.
  
  Anything that punishes single mistakes with death is certainly not overpowered.

  
  
  I rarely use pet play, but thanks for making that assumption.
  Windmill stun is long enough for nearly any situation. The only cases where it doesn't work, is if you have large amounts of lag or the mobs have PD (or sometimes mobs with stupidly large hitboxes).
  
  You don't need pet play to Windmill things against the wall. You don't need pet play in parties. You don't need pet play in SCC, in Peaca, in Sliab Cuilin, Etc. Unless you're purposely attempting something like SCC or Rath missions solo, you don't need it at all. Conversely, a mage can NOT solo extreme situations without similarly extraneous gear, potions, and skill ranks, if even at all. That 2000 range doesn't help you at all when Rath rooms are only around 2500 corner to corner, and mobs have an aggro radius of around 1000.
  
  Single-mistakes with death can be counterbalanced with -HP enchants. Or with Mana Shield, which you're leaving out for some reason. It can easily be activated right before getting hit, or with low HP barely loses any MP at all per Windmill.
• Nibnibnib wrote on 2011-04-08 22:41

  Quote from Joker;401908:

  /sees a future martial arts / knuckle playstyle?
  
  
  
  I Lol'd Thats what you think.... try it on wireless on a connection that jumps out every lil bit ping jumps to 2-3x ur normal ping and where ur best ping on mabi's connection is 120 vs a normal day where its 200 GG alexane try loading wm ...... or summoning a pet ... AT ALL
  
  If you want to be pro at mabi and dont have under 90 MS ping on mabi servers.... or near lagless you will NEVER be as pro as someone who has said connection
  
  mabis playstyle is all about either 1 hitting them so they CANT hit u..... or having lagless so you can actually use the system....98% of all my deaths are ping related...
  oh.. inb4youtellmetogetbetterinternet theres only dialup and wireless in our area ^^
  
  PS: you prob didn't mean to make me rant but eh.. it happens srry >.>
  /endrant

  
  
  Learn how to play the game. I can easily play with that lag, my MS is normally 200~300.
  
  @People saying WM needs a buff; LOL.
• Joker wrote on 2011-04-08 22:50

  Quote from Nibnibnib;401926:

  Learn how to play the game. I can easily play with that lag, my MS is normally 200~300.
  
  @People saying WM needs a buff; LOL.

  
  
  you've apparently never had wireless
• Lan wrote on 2011-04-08 22:53

  Quote from Justified;401925:

  I rarely use pet play, but thanks for making that assumption.
  Windmill stun is long enough for nearly any situation. The only cases where it doesn't work, is if you have large amounts of lag or the mobs have PD (or sometimes mobs with stupidly large hitboxes).
  
  You don't need pet play to Windmill things against the wall. You don't need pet play in parties. You don't need pet play in SCC, in Peaca, in Sliab Cuilin, Etc. Unless you're purposely attempting something like SCC or Rath missions solo, you don't need it at all. Conversely, a mage can NOT solo extreme situations without similarly extraneous gear, potions, and skill ranks, if even at all. That 2000 range doesn't help you at all when Rath rooms are only around 2500 corner to corner, and mobs have an aggro radius of around 1000.
  
  Single-mistakes with death can be counterbalanced with -HP enchants. Or with Mana Shield, which you're leaving out for some reason. It can easily be activated right before getting hit, or with low HP barely loses any MP at all per Windmill.

  
  
  The thing about Mana shield is that it wont save you when you're in deadly. But otherwise good points.