Guild Loot Systems

• Zatrox wrote on 2010-05-31 05:55
  As time goes on, our guild continues to grow and therefore runs harder dungeons together. Harder dungeons, in general, yield better loot; it's just an integral part of MMORPG's.
  
  (Un)fortunately, Mabinogi does not operate the same way that other MMORPG's do. For example, I've been told that end-game equipments in WoW "Bind" on equip, so that whoever has a turn to loot cannot turn around and resell. On the other hand, any loot given to someone can easily be sold for a quick buck.
  
  How do you think high-end loot should be split amongst guild members?
  
  I ask only because I do not want to deal with any "Guild Loot Hoppers", especially since our guild is growing and runs HM dungeons more frequently than before.
  
  It obviously wouldn't be fair if it were just a "first to call dibs" system.. same goes to a "winner take all" scheme where LUCK has too much weight on loot. The ideal loot distribution system should reward those who work the hardest while also preventing veterans from completely shutting out new runners.
  
  There are those who request help for an item/page/enchant but never contribute.
  On the flipside, in some cases those who frequently answer calls for assistance are never properly rewarded for their efforts.
  
  What dungeon loot system do you think works the best for Mabinogi?
• Hiccup wrote on 2010-05-31 05:57
  Whoever picks it up gets it.
• Andy-Buddy wrote on 2010-05-31 06:03
  A pre-agreed system of:
  
  Whomever works the hardest gets the most. If they contributed anything from amazing healing and saving you when you need it, to tanking rooms and wiping everything, that(those) person(people) should be rewarded the most. It requires honesty, so you're gonna need a reliable party.
• Intex wrote on 2010-05-31 06:07
  If one person gets say, a rare vintage and wants to keep it, he should pay the party in accordance to the items worth.
  
  OFC it also depends on who did the most work or who slacks.
  There's always a possibility someone will resale, but you have a gist of who to trust and who not to.
  There's the person who does "Oh you need potions, I think I have some."
  And "Could you buy me some feathers?" (when near town and without paying back).
  
  If it's their drop they are entitled to some of the luck though.
• Yogurticecream wrote on 2010-05-31 06:36
  If it isn't worth a lot, person in guild gets to keep it or decide what he/she wants to do with it.
  
  It's more about the fun rather than what you get.
  
  Though when it comes to me, if I get high-end loot that is sellable, I'll split it. If it's something I want to keep (e.g. Viper ES), I'll request and see what the rest has to say.
• Pocoyo wrote on 2010-05-31 07:04
  I go with whatevers fair.
• Aubog007 wrote on 2010-05-31 07:04
  Guild leader decides what to do with it before the run is made.
  That's how i did it and it was fair.
• Yah wrote on 2010-05-31 07:11
  You sell the item and split the profit. If a person in guild who was in the party wants the item dropped then you need to determine a price before you start running. Depending by the amount of people that person divides the market price (or guild discount) between the remaining members of the party. This basicaly makes everyone in the party is an equal beneficiary. If someone isn't pulling their weight it i your own fault for allowing them into the party. Next time don't let them join you on your endeavor.
• Syrphid wrote on 2010-05-31 08:12

  Quote from bradstrt;51150:

  Whoever picks it up gets it.

  
  
  That gives players an incentive to rush boss monsters, at the cost of casual play, safety, and teamwork.
  
  

  Quote from Andy-Buddy;51158:

  A pre-agreed system of:
  
  Whomever works the hardest gets the most. If they contributed anything from amazing healing and saving you when you need it, to tanking rooms and wiping everything, that(those) person(people) should be rewarded the most. It requires honesty, so you're gonna need a reliable party.

  
  
  I agree, but how to quantify this? How to implement in practice?
  
  
  

  Quote from Yogurticecream;51181:

  If it isn't worth a lot, person in guild gets to keep it or decide what he/she wants to do with it.
  
  It's more about the fun rather than what you get.
  
  Though when it comes to me, if I get high-end loot that is sellable, I'll split it. If it's something I want to keep (e.g. Viper ES), I'll request and see what the rest has to say.

  
  
  I agree, I play casually and don't care that much about drops. However, your last statement begins Zatrox's thread. What to do when someone wants something?
  
  

  Quote from Aubog007;51187:

  Guild leader decides what to do with it before the run is made.
  That's how i did it and it was fair.

  
  
  Thread creator is my guild leader, not an option.
  
  

  Quote from Yah;51190:

  You sell the item and split the profit. If a person in guild who was in the party wants the item dropped then you need to determine a price before you start running. Depending by the amount of people that person divides the market price (or guild discount) between the remaining members of the party. This basicaly makes everyone in the party is an equal beneficiary. If someone isn't pulling their weight it i your own fault for allowing them into the party. Next time don't let them join you on your endeavor.

  
  
  This is what almost everyone does. I did it all the time before. But what if there's a better system? This does not take care of players giving different amounts of effort, as you noted.
  
  from: Suicide Kings - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
  
  

  Suicide Kings is a loot distribution system for guild raiding. Suicide Kings was designed to be a system that distributes loot in decently fair manner, and nothing else. If you choose SK as your loot system, that means you are going to have to find some other way to get players to perform well and show up when no loot drops. This emphasizes the point that SK works better in casual and friendly environments where people show up to play first and foremost, and loot is but a happy consequence. If loot is the main (or only!) reason people show up, SK is not the right system for you.
  
  The basics of the system are as follows:
  
  1. Players are put in an ordered list, usually based on a random roll (although some have made attempts to translate the order from a pre-existing loot system). Multiple lists may be used (see below for discussion).
  2. When a new player needs to be added to the list, it is possible to let him "roll in," or simply insert him at the bottom of the list(s).
  3. When loot is dropped, the person who wants it and is nearest the top of the list wins the loot and goes to the bottom of the list.
  4. Players who are not currently in the raid do not move up or down in the lists.
  5. If no-one wants the item, it is up to the guild to decide what to do with it.

  
  
  Before today I didn't even know they had loot distribution systems. This requires keeping a simple list of guildies on a website. This distributes loot without requiring that money change hands. It seems to handle cheap and expensive loot well too, as those shooting for expensive stuff will have to save up and hold off, while others can settle for more cheap stuff.
  
  Doesn't help with half-ass players though.
  
  I think it's important, if we do use a loot system, that we keep it simple. The usual cut and sell method is easy. This should be easy to do as well. The website notes that it's a very "transparent" system. Even youngin's should understand it. It would be hard to tamper with SK's list without someone noticing.
  
  A system that rewards punctuality, frequent playing, and high level play will also tend to be complicated and annoying. I haven't read up on what I'm sure are at least hundreds of other loot systems, so I wouldn't know where to draw the line.
• Aubog007 wrote on 2010-05-31 08:59
  My original post was when i was in a guild rabbie adv so i had little time to type.
  
  

  Quote from Syrphid;51202:

  
  
  Thread creator is my guild leader, not an option.
  
  

  
  I AM the guild leader of my guild so i was giving him a leader's opinion.
  I WAS in Ruairi and anyone who came with me on my guild runs were fairly rewarded with what they needed.
  
  Too bad you weren't around for the Peaca basic runs when they were just released...
  And I had someone steal a DB and violated the rules of the run.
  
  Anywho... back to the point.
  Who has the pass. Who NEEDS said item instead of WANTING said item.
  If noone calls out anything BEFORE the pass is use (Since i'm guild leader) I call out what's going to be done with it. (most likely sell it and split)
  Money is the most useless thing in this game... Helping guild members get skills or things they NEED > Money.
  Make the guild stronger. not richer.
  Greed makes people into hideous things.
  
  
  When you are a fair and generous leader.
  People respect you more. If they don't like your ways... Well it IS your guild afterall.
• Hiccup wrote on 2010-05-31 10:16

  Quote from Aubog007;51215:

  
  Too bad you weren't around for the Peaca basic runs when they were just released...
  And I had someone steal a DB and violated the rules of the run.
  
  Greed makes people into hideous things.

  
  This be the problem. You can't really trust guildies even respected ones 100% cause they can turn on ya so fast.
  
  I'd say if an item drops that someone wants have an auction with Guild discount. Goes to the highest bidder. Though that wont really work if people dun have the money. Then you could.....
  The Most Successful Loot Systems | Groups of Words
  
  Overview of Loot Systems | Groups of Words
  
  Both good reads.
• Aubog007 wrote on 2010-05-31 10:39

  Quote from bradstrt;51236:

  This be the problem. You can't really trust guildies even respected ones 100% cause they can turn on ya so fast.
  
  I'd say if an item drops that someone wants have an auction with Guild discount. Goes to the highest bidder. Though that wont really work if people dun have the money. Then you could.....
  The Most Successful Loot Systems | Groups of Words
  
  Overview of Loot Systems | Groups of Words
  
  Both good reads.

  
  
  Person who did that later paid us all back.
  Took a lot of harassing but it worked.
  Either way i give everyone one chance of trust, Mess it up and it's gone for good.
  Can't be a fair guild if you don't give everyone a fair shot.
• Justified wrote on 2010-05-31 11:40

  Quote from Aubog007;51215:

  Anywho... back to the point.
  Who has the pass. Who NEEDS said item instead of WANTING said item.
  If noone calls out anything BEFORE the pass is use (Since i'm guild leader) I call out what's going to be done with it. (most likely sell it and split)
  Money is the most useless thing in this game... Helping guild members get skills or things they NEED > Money.
  Make the guild stronger. not richer.
  Greed makes people into hideous things.

  
  
  Efficiency - "Whoever finds it gets it" - Assumption that in the long run, drops will even out between all players. Incentive for people to attend multiple runs for more chances at a "jackpot" chest. Drawback is that somebody who wants something will have to ask/buy it from the person who finds it.
  
  Equity - "Fair split" - Monetary value is evenly decided amongst all runners. Incentive for players to attend a run and be guaranteed some cash, should anything at all drop. Drawbacks are the amount of uneven effort not being addressed, and that the finder has their reward mostly taken away from them.
  
  In both systems, there's a high chance of resentment. Some people feel like rewards should be split since runs are group efforts. Others feel like rewards are entirely theirs because it's their luck that found it. Some people feel like weaker members or bad players shouldn't receive the same amount of a cut. Others may feel like their greater ability to kick fomor butt should receive a more plentiful reward.
  And what about Hardmode dungeons? You could get more than one valuable item (I've head stories of people getting 3 Vintage Dustin Helms in one run).
  
  A good system should not only force people to (somehow) divide the loot evenly, but motivate them to do so. It's easy to say "sure I'll share the loot" but then just run off when it's in your pocket. Saying that failure to comply will result in a kick from the guild isn't really motivation. It's been shown that our community cares nothing about past scamming/hacking history. They can just join another guild and move on with the game.
  
  I disagree that money is useless. Equipment in endgame dungeons can make or break a player. The ability to buy Holy Water or other life skill material gives you more time to grind levels instead of grind Kristell. The ability to buy NX gets you more frequent rebirths. Money opens up a lot of doors.
• Osayidan wrote on 2010-05-31 12:47
  The suicide kings system from WoW looks good, only isue is that it was designed for WoW. Most dungeons only give 1 really sought after item, while the rest is junk drops like a gold pile. Even when there's a few good rewards the difference between the best one and the lesser ones is usually vast. Not tomention in mabi getting a reward at the end of the dungeon to begin with is often a huge 'maybe'.
  
  Suicide Kings is based on there being an almost guaranteed chance that there will be loot on your raid. And often times enough to go around.
  
  In mabi it's all about luck, and tuesdays. So rather than cycling through people on the basis of them having got the loot, maybe cycle through them on the number of runs. common passes maybe give everyone 2 runs, rarer passes 1 run. Then it moves on to the next on the list for that same dungeon.
• Zatrox wrote on 2010-05-31 12:59

  Quote from Aubog007;51215:

  
  If noone calls out anything BEFORE the pass is use (Since i'm guild leader) I call out what's going to be done with it. (most likely sell it and split)
  Money is the most useless thing in this game... Helping guild members get skills or things they NEED > Money.
  Make the guild stronger. not richer.
  .

  
  
  What is stopping a player from "needing" the rarest item in the loot pile, then moving it to a mule and pawning off the money? :v Untraceable.
  
  

  Quote from Justified;51255:

  
  It's been shown that our community cares nothing about past scamming/hacking history. They can just join another guild and move on with the game.
  

  
  
  I think this is one of the bigger differences between other MMO's and Nexon games. Deception is too common and too easy to pull off.
  Doesn't help that any any semblance of a "list of alleged bad apples" gets locked for harassment.
  
  

  Quote from Osayidan;51280:

  The suicide kings system from WoW looks good, only isue is that it was designed for WoW. Most dungeons only give 1 really sought after item, while the rest is junk drops like a gold pile. Even when there's a few good rewards the difference between the best one and the lesser ones is usually vast. Not tomention in mabi getting a reward at the end of the dungeon to begin with is often a huge 'maybe'.
  

  
  
  This is another one of my concerns: adjusting another MMO's loot system(s) so that it can pertain to Mabinogi. There are just so many differences that it really does get quite annoying; I sometimes wish items like Dustin Helm were binded on equip (like ZHelms in Maple).