Officially Unofficial League of Legends Thread

• Juno wrote on 2014-03-20 23:34

  Quote from Hatsunechan;1208388:

  But if riot isnt balancing around pros OR the community, what are they balancing around? Because they felt like it instead of doing their players want?

  
  
  Balance should not be around the pros or the community, but the game itself. No matter who says what, it should all come down to what actually is.
  
  In this case, Lee Sin was obnoxiously strong early and had way more burst than dps late to go with his utility. The 2x scaling on his ult was also gratuitous. The pros felt that since he was melee, he fell off in the late game teamfight phase and was thus balanced, but that doesn't mean that his kit was a good fit for the game.
  
  Riot's changes tone down Lee's early, I-win-no-matter-what strength and give him some dps instead of burst late so that he can't be a super-mobile assassin with the stats of a bruiser. They also made his ult less of crazy super damage + super utility move. Re-positioning is very powerful, but now, if he wants to isolate an enemy, he has to give up doing massive amounts of damage to them. Alternatively, he can blow them up but kick them into relative safety.
  
  All in all, it makes Lee a far more interesting character. He may see play for reasons other than his stifling early game power now.
• Hatsunechan wrote on 2014-03-21 00:00

  Quote from Juno;1208415:

  Balance should not be around the pros or the community, but the game itself. No matter who says what, it should all come down to what actually is.
  
  In this case, Lee Sin was obnoxiously strong early and had way more burst than dps late to go with his utility. The 2x scaling on his ult was also gratuitous. The pros felt that since he was melee, he fell off in the late game teamfight phase and was thus balanced, but that doesn't mean that his kit was a good fit for the game.
  
  Riot's changes tone down Lee's early, I-win-no-matter-what strength and give him some dps instead of burst late so that he can't be a super-mobile assassin with the stats of a bruiser. They also made his ult less of crazy super damage + super utility move. Re-positioning is very powerful, but now, if he wants to isolate an enemy, he has to give up doing massive amounts of damage to them. Alternatively, he can blow them up but kick them into relative safety.
  
  All in all, it makes Lee a far more interesting character. He may see play for reasons other than his stifling early game power now.

  
  
  And then you see champs like Poppy, Warwick, Gangplank, Sion, Fiora, Viktor. They all have way more problems than Lee Sin does.
  
  If riot does not balance around the community or pros, why are they buffing/nerfing based on LCS play then? They have to balance around the community/pros because they are who define the meta and they are the ones playing the actual game.
  
  The problem with lategame Lee is that he gets blown up instantly if he goes DPS, but does no damage if he builds tanky. Riot wants to buff his lategame by giving him a stronger attack speed but they end up nerfing his ult, which was pretty much only used for utility anyways. You never really see any Lee's in LCS past early game using his kick to 2 shot an adc. It's pretty much only used as a re-positioning tool.
  
  Also what is wrong with champions being strong at different parts of the game? Lee is strong early but falls off late. Vayne is weak early but becomes a hypercarry lategame. Does that mean riot should be buffing/nerfing every champ so they're equal power at all stages of the game? No because that's stupid and boring. Champs powerspike at different points of the game and I dont see any problems with that, neither do any Lee Sin mains.
  
  It's also really funny how when junglers were only utility ward tanks and basically couldnt carry a game. Now that carry junglers are viable riot wants to go and nerf them all (Elise, Panth, Lee, Vi, Kha) and ruin the ENTIRE point of s4 which was to make carry junglers viable.
• Juno wrote on 2014-03-21 02:22

  Quote from Hatsunechan:

  And then you see champs like Poppy, Warwick, Gangplank, Sion, Fiora, Viktor. They all have way more problems than Lee Sin does.

  
  
  They do, but none of them are played as much as Lee is. Like, he is literally played 20x more than any champion on that list, to be conservative. Also, none of them are as powerful as Lee is and 3 or 4 of them are slated for reworks.
  
  Edit: Lee is the 3rd most played champ at 36% WW is at 8%, Fiora at 4%, GP at 2% and the rest at 1%
  
  

  If riot does not balance around the community or pros, why are they buffing/nerfing based on LCS play then? They have to balance around the community/pros because they are who define the meta and they are the ones playing the actual game.

  
  
  The pros will always find the champions that need fixing and exploit them. It's the best way to win the game, unfortunately. However, assuming Riot had infinite time (or ample manpower) they would have fixed those champions regardless of LCS. In order to keep their competitive scene from looking like a total farce, though, they have to prioritize the champions that have been exposed there.
  
  When pros play a champ that they're very good with but that isn't broken, like Anivia, we tend not to see any nerfs despite outstanding performances. The last few seasons, though, there have been god-tier champs in just about every role that popped up often enough to drive personal favorites to a minimum.
  
  

  The problem with lategame Lee is that he gets blown up instantly if he goes DPS, but does no damage if he builds tanky. Riot wants to buff his lategame by giving him a stronger attack speed but they end up nerfing his ult, which was pretty much only used for utility anyways. You never really see any Lee's in LCS past early game using his kick to 2 shot an adc. It's pretty much only used as a re-positioning tool.

  
  
  Instantly is an exaggeration, especially considering that he doesn't need time to unload most of his damage. Also, tanky dps Lee does plenty of damage, not more than a dps, but more than he has any business doing in burst considering his utility (re-position, dash, other dash, massive AS/MS slow, lifesteal). Granted, if he got shut down early he'd be quite ineffective, but he was next to impossible to shut down. Either way, a super strong early -> lackluster late is not an ideal power curve.
  
  His ultimate did 600 damage + 2.0 AD. No matter how you look at it, that's a nuke. It was silly on an AD Lee and did too much damage on any Lee for the utility that it has. Note that the utility is unchanged, so if it's being used like you say it is, then there was effectively no nerf. It's now clear that the point of his ultimate is not to kill, per se, but to re-position.
  
  

  Also what is wrong with champions being strong at different parts of the game? Lee is strong early but falls off late. Vayne is weak early but becomes a hypercarry lategame. Does that mean riot should be buffing/nerfing every champ so they're equal power at all stages of the game? No because that's stupid and boring. Champs powerspike at different points of the game and I dont see any problems with that, neither do any Lee Sin mains.

  
  
  It's fine for champions to have their heyday at different points. That doesn't mean that any conceivable power curve is ideal. Having a champion that's super strong early and really lackluster late means that players stomp early without having to make plays and then get stomped late no matter how well they build or how well they play. That doesn't fit in a game that's basic premise is play well, get ahead, win game.
  
  Graves is a decent example of an early hump power curve. He's most dangerous at lvls 6-9 where he can 100-0 some enemies with a bit of support. However, once people have items, he still has utility and a steroid to keep him relevant so he can finish what he started, but he's probably not going to carry harder than a late hump power curve if they manage to catch up or not fall behind during his strong phase.
  
  The important catches there are that Graves can be outplayed early and that Graves can still outplay his opponents later. In Lee's case, his early deaths were almost exclusively because he judged something poorly or misplayed and his late-game become difficult to navigate due to tighter enemy grouping, meaning he didn't really have a way to react to it.
  
  

  It's also really funny how when junglers were only utility ward tanks and basically couldnt carry a game. Now that carry junglers are viable riot wants to go and nerf them all (Elise, Panth, Lee, Vi, Kha) and ruin the ENTIRE point of s4 which was to make carry junglers viable.

  
  
  Carry junglers are not a terrible idea, but they must obey the rules of the carry. That means they're weak early and strong late. All of the junglers you mentioned are incredible gankers. They carry by gimping the entire enemy team instead of building their own strength, which is not fun to deal with. Ganks should be adrenaline pumping, life or death situations, not inescapable. Or, if there really is no escape, it must be something which cannot be repeated on a short CD. The only one that kind of fits that is Panth, who is probably only problematic because lanes are too snowbally atm.
• Hatsunechan wrote on 2014-03-21 04:34

  Quote from Juno;1208480:

  They do, but none of them are played as much as Lee is. Like, he is literally played 20x more than any champion on that list, to be conservative. Also, none of them are as powerful as Lee is and 3 or 4 of them are slated for reworks.
  
  Edit: Lee is the 3rd most played champ at 36% WW is at 8%, Fiora at 4%, GP at 2% and the rest at 1%

  Why Lee who is usable and is again considered balanced by like 95% of the community instead of a champion who is used by less than 1% BECAUSE they are so bad. Having a 36% playrate means there are more opinions on that champion and ever since riot announced this Lee rework 95% of the community has hated it.
  
  
  
  

  The pros will always find the champions that need fixing and exploit them. It's the best way to win the game, unfortunately. However, assuming Riot had infinite time (or ample manpower) they would have fixed those champions regardless of LCS. In order to keep their competitive scene from looking like a total farce, though, they have to prioritize the champions that have been exposed there.

  Then why Lee who isnt the champion who is singlehandedly carrying games. Leblanc, Nidalee, Lulu, Gragas can carry an entire team but Lee only has an average single target nuke combo that is hard to land and isnt really a problem at all. There's no good reason for riot to target Lee over a lot of these other champions.
  
  
  

  Instantly is an exaggeration, especially considering that he doesn't need time to unload most of his damage. Also, tanky dps Lee does plenty of damage, not more than a dps, but more than he has any business doing in burst considering his utility (re-position, dash, other dash, massive AS/MS slow, lifesteal). Granted, if he got shut down early he'd be quite ineffective, but he was next to impossible to shut down. Either way, a super strong early -> lackluster late is not an ideal power curve.
  
  His ultimate did 600 damage + 2.0 AD. No matter how you look at it, that's a nuke. It was silly on an AD Lee and did too much damage on any Lee for the utility that it has. Note that the utility is unchanged, so if it's being used like you say it is, then there was effectively no nerf. It's now clear that the point of his ultimate is not to kill, per se, but to re-position.

  I'm honestly not sure what you're arguing though. Having 600 base on his ultimate was never a problem. It was not silly, it's really not that much unless the Lee builds full glass cannon. You're saying that tanky lee still does ok damage, then why does he need buffs to his lategame? He has SO much utility.
  
  

  It's fine for champions to have their heyday at different points. That doesn't mean that any conceivable power curve is ideal. Having a champion that's super strong early and really lackluster late means that players stomp early without having to make plays and then get stomped late no matter how well they build or how well they play. That doesn't fit in a game that's basic premise is play well, get ahead, win game.
  
  Graves is a decent example of an early hump power curve. He's most dangerous at lvls 6-9 where he can 100-0 some enemies with a bit of support. However, once people have items, he still has utility and a steroid to keep him relevant so he can finish what he started, but he's probably not going to carry harder than a late hump power curve if they manage to catch up or not fall behind during his strong phase.
  
  The important catches there are that Graves can be outplayed early and that Graves can still outplay his opponents later. In Lee's case, his early deaths were almost exclusively because he judged something poorly or misplayed and his late-game become difficult to navigate due to tighter enemy grouping, meaning he didn't really have a way to react to it.

  If teams/players decide that they want an early game focused team, then let them. If they decide they want a team that's stronger lategame, let them. means that players stomp early without having to make plays and then get stomped late no matter how well they build or how well they play. is so exaggerated, Lee isnt anywhere near that faceroll early. You can outplay a Lee too and Lee is mechanically one of the hardest champs in the game. Most people wont ever play Lee to his full potential.
  
  The game's "basic premise" are also defined by the players, not riot. Again what you said is so exaggerated because you're making it sound like Lee becomes 100% useless lategame. He still has amazing utility and % damage will always scale. When people say "fall off" they mean he doesnt do anywhere near the damage of champions like Irelia or Jax. There isnt really a champion in the game that is truely useless lategame. Even if they do 0 damage they can splitpush towers or just simply be a tank/peeler for your team, which Lee is actually extremely good at.
  
  
  
  

  Carry junglers are not a terrible idea, but they must obey the rules of the carry. That means they're weak early and strong late. All of the junglers you mentioned are incredible gankers. They carry by gimping the entire enemy team instead of building their own strength, which is not fun to deal with. Ganks should be adrenaline pumping, life or death situations, not inescapable. Or, if there really is no escape, it must be something which cannot be repeated on a short CD. The only one that kind of fits that is Panth, who is probably only problematic because lanes are too snowbally atm.

  Riot wanted junglers to carry earlier, not just lategame. Pantheon is known for his weak lategame, yet riot did this to him: https://twitter.com/moobeat/status/446737287628353536/photo/1
  
  That is just such a sad nerf to a champion who finally got played after a year. Wukong and other carry junglers are soon to follow until they all become so weak we'll see tank junglers come back into the meta. Then those will become so OP that riot will nerf them so much that carry junglers will become popular again. This cycle will just repeat until riot's balance team learns how to properly balance their game and get their priorities straight.
• Juno wrote on 2014-03-21 06:46

  Quote from Hatsunechan:

  Why Lee who is usable and is again considered balanced by like 95% of the community instead of a champion who is used by less than 1% BECAUSE they are so bad. Having a 36% playrate means there are more opinions on that champion and ever since riot announced this Lee rework 95% of the community has hated it.
  

  
  
  For the record, balanced simply means that their overall power level is appropriate, generally at the professional level of play. It does not mean that champion cannot be improved upon.
  
  Also, champions do not reach such absurdly high play rates by being healthy, at least not for so long as Lee has enjoyed his. FotM comes and goes and some champs are just better with passing metas, but Lee has been riding this wave basically since his release.
  
  Finally, improving an unpopular champ adds one potential pick to the pool. Changing a popular champ to allow room for competition adds ~109 potential picks (or something between 1 and 109, but you get the point). It's also much easier to tweak Lee than it is to remake Poppy or Gangplank. Whether the community whines about it or not is a non-factor.
  
  

  Then why Lee who isnt the champion who is singlehandedly carrying games. Leblanc, Nidalee, Lulu, Gragas can carry an entire team but Lee only has an average single target nuke combo that is hard to land and isnt really a problem at all. There's no good reason for riot to target Lee over a lot of these other champions.

  
  
  The fact that he doesn't single-handedly carry games is likely why he escaped priority for so long. In that lull, every champion you mentioned was tweaked at least twice and will likely see further changes.
  
  

  I'm honestly not sure what you're arguing though. Having 600 base on his ultimate was never a problem. It was not silly, it's really not that much unless the Lee builds full glass cannon. You're saying that tanky lee still does ok damage, then why does he need buffs to his lategame? He has SO much utility.
  

  
  
  The damage on the ultimate is overshadowed by his other boons, but it was much, much higher than the numbers seen on other bruisers. Vi probably comes closest in terms of utility and only does 450 + 1.4 bonus AD on a longer CD at every rank compared to Lee's 600 + 2.0 bonus AD. Not to mention, her burst feels too high anyway.
  
  Tank Lee does ok damage, but it's all from his abilities. That means he jumps in, presses all of his buttons, then sits around kicking people in the shins for a while. This is not a very interesting scenario. Not only does it remove any incentive for him to use his abilities wisely, it means people have no time to react to them either.
  
  The changes mean Lee is going to do far more damage overall, but he'll have to space out ability usage and stay in AA range to do it. Far more exciting if they can pull it off.
  
  

  If teams/players decide that they want an early game focused team, then let them. If they decide they want a team that's stronger lategame, let them. means that players stomp early without having to make plays and then get stomped late no matter how well they build or how well they play. is so exaggerated, Lee isnt anywhere near that faceroll early. You can outplay a Lee too and Lee is mechanically one of the hardest champs in the game. Most people wont ever play Lee to his full potential.

  
  
  Those options are available. Like Graves, for instance. LeBlanc, Caitlyn and Renekton come to mind as well, in varying degrees of health. You will notice, however, that none of them are as frontloaded as Lee.
  
  It's true that Lee has a huge playbook, but he can win most trades by pressing E against an AA enemy or W against a bursty enemy. Barring that, he can use his dash/MS slow/dash to only fight the fights he knows he will win. Mastering him is hard, but it takes a special kind of idiot not to be able to play him effectively. I won't even get into how simple his jungling is, provided you know the general drift of the jungle.
  
  

  The game's "basic premise" are also defined by the players, not riot. Again what you said is so exaggerated because you're making it sound like Lee becomes 100% useless lategame. He still has amazing utility and % damage will always scale. When people say "fall off" they mean he doesnt do anywhere near the damage of champions like Irelia or Jax. There isnt really a champion in the game that is truely useless lategame. Even if they do 0 damage they can splitpush towers or just simply be a tank/peeler for your team, which Lee is actually extremely good at.

  
  
  Actually, the premise of the game is not player controlled. Sometimes, player premises get turned into side maps like ARAM, but even then the underlying goal is the same. Make plays. Get items. Destroy nexus.
  
  Think about what happens when you allow the premise of: Win fights almost regardless of plays made. Get items. Get outscaled to the point of losing fights almost regardless of plays made. Not only does snowballing into a one-sided stomp become the only way to win a game (not a good thing), but the very thing that drives the cool factor in MOBAs, making plays, gets sidelined.
  
  And, for the record, I have not called Lee useless lategame. I said simply that his effectiveness drops off, because he can no longer isolate an enemy with ease and is liable to eat more cc than usual. He's not useless, but he has few options to meaningfully contribute outside of enemy mistakes, split-pushing being one of them.
  
  

  Riot wanted junglers to carry earlier, not just lategame. Pantheon is known for his weak lategame, yet riot did this to him: https://twitter.com/moobeat/status/4...353536/photo/1
  
  That is just such a sad nerf to a champion who finally got played after a year. Wukong and other carry junglers are soon to follow until they all become so weak we'll see tank junglers come back into the meta. Then those will become so OP that riot will nerf them so much that carry junglers will become popular again. This cycle will just repeat until riot's balance team learns how to properly balance their game and get their priorities straight.

  
  
  PBE changes are often far more drastic than what hits live. Often, the idea is to quickly gather intel on 'what if' questions like 'what if Pantheon didn't have his man-drop?'
  
  That said, I'm not against removing his ability to show up out of no where and stun, so long as he is fairly compensated. There's not really a way to defend against it, and I'd rather see the jump changed than see him lose his stun. We're not going to see any interesting aggression if enemies can appear without warning from half the map away.
  
  Wukong is another story, but I'll complain about him some other time.
  
  Meanwhile, I think you're right that the super gankers are all going to get kicked into the mud right now, but I think that the actual carry junglers will emerge from the carnage rather than the tanks. Assuming, of course, they get around to whipping top lane into shape...which is a bit of a bad gamble...
• Intimacy wrote on 2014-03-21 10:27

  Quote from Juno;1208573:

  Assuming, of course, they get around to whipping top lane into shape...which is a bit of a bad gamble...

  
  
  Riot, fixing toplane, the hive of scumbaggery asshole heaven and land of everything toxic, the place where everything and anything that can piss you off and make your day sour goes to frolic, bhahahahahahahaha
  
  That'll happen shortly after riot perfectly balances all champions to have no hard counters, no over the top earlygame, no over the top sustain, no over the top damage or tankyness. Any of those in great proportion will forever make toplane toxic as a nuclear powerplant.
• Snowie Stormflower wrote on 2014-03-21 12:16

  Quote from Intimacy;1208599:

  Riot, fixing toplane, the hive of scumbaggery asshole heaven and land of everything toxic, the place where everything and anything that can piss you off and make your day sour goes to frolic, bhahahahahahahaha
  
  That'll happen shortly after riot perfectly balances all champions to have no hard counters, no over the top earlygame, no over the top sustain, no over the top damage or tankyness. Any of those in great proportion will forever make toplane toxic as a nuclear powerplant.

  
  
  That sounds like early season 1, farming for 40 minutes and then teamfighting with full builds.
  
  As for top lane, I *BEEP*-ING HATE DARIUS.
• Hatsunechan wrote on 2014-03-21 16:23

  Quote from Juno:

  Tank Lee does ok damage, but it's all from his abilities. That means he jumps in, presses all of his buttons, then sits around kicking people in the shins for a while. This is not a very interesting scenario. Not only does it remove any incentive for him to use his abilities wisely, it means people have no time to react to them either.
  
  The changes mean Lee is going to do far more damage overall, but he'll have to space out ability usage and stay in AA range to do it. Far more exciting if they can pull it off.

  Yet this rework fixes none of that and just lets him punch someone 2 more times between each skill while nerfing the base damage on all his abilities and making tank Lee even weaker.
• Juno wrote on 2014-03-22 00:17

  Yet this rework fixes none of that and just lets him punch someone 2 more times between each skill while nerfing the base damage on all his abilities and making tank Lee even weaker.

  
  
  If you're looking for a tank Lee buff, you're out of luck. Riot does not like tank Lee, for good reason. The rework shifts him from burst to dps and lets him scale on AD without becoming a pseudo-assassin.
• Hatsunechan wrote on 2014-03-22 01:04

  Quote from Juno;1208740:

  If you're looking for a tank Lee buff, you're out of luck. Riot does not like tank Lee, for good reason. The rework shifts him from burst to dps and lets him scale on AD without becoming a pseudo-assassin.

  It does let him be a pseudo-assasin because they buffed the AD ratios on the rest of his skills. What was wrong with tank Lee? Riot back to enforcing the meta when they say they dont?
• Juno wrote on 2014-03-22 02:23

  Quote from Hatsunechan;1208750:

  It does let him be a pseudo-assasin because they buffed the AD ratios on the rest of his skills. What was wrong with tank Lee? Riot back to enforcing the meta when they say they dont?

  
  
  Overall, his skill damage dropped, in no small part due to the massive base drop on his ult. Buffing the AD ratios means that he can build damage to do damage, another goal of the changes.
  
  It wasn't ok for tank Lee to do as much as he did building full tank. If you feel it's best for the game you're in, you can still build tank, but there's now going to be a much bigger damage difference than before. The problem is when tank Lee + Hydra is the optimal build for everything, all the damage you need and all the durability you could really want given his mobility.
  
  And, really, Riot totally enforces parts of the meta, no matter what they say. Generally, I think this is for the best, though I do wish they'd be less shady about it.
• Intimacy wrote on 2014-03-23 23:54
  This video is extremely relevent to the leesin argument
  
  [video=youtube;e31OSVZF77w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w#t=380[/video]
• TLCBonaparte wrote on 2014-03-24 00:14
  This is macro-economy... perfect imbalance is just macro economy -_-
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