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• Kollin wrote on 2012-09-11 02:04
  I hate to say it, but infractions and things are handed out on a "am I friends with this person?" basis. Usually when it gets out of control and everyone complains about it do the mods that are working then do something about it. There are plenty of things I have said that I really should have gotten an infraction for, and was surprised when I didn't. Then you have cases where someone does something minor, maybe not really even an offense, and get infracted or even banned. I know you guys tried, but that is usually what it comes to when moderating a forum. Who likes who and who gets in trouble based on that.
• Kazuni wrote on 2012-09-11 02:05
  I remember I we used to have arguments about TA's sig in the staff section, and tbh (although I love love your art Addy, don't get me wrong), I thought that the sig was a bit much, as well. I blocked it, even though I'm at home, just because it felt weird to see that every other thread and my parents could just walk in, and that's something I don't feel like explaining.
  
  TA's sigs, well, some of them, were much less NSFW, and she always defended them so viciously. I'm sure you can look up an old thread where she posted a picture of basically a girl's butt bent over and asked how much panty was required to make it okay. It was never going to be okay.
  
  There was also someone's (maybe also TA?) whose sig had a picture of Morrighan and her nipples could be seen under her shirt, and the we got all up in a bunch for it, because it was over the line.
  
  Regulars here know you're an artist and are used to your drawings being in your sig, but to any outsider it would look like NSFW content is allowed in signatures, despite what the rules say, just because you're a mod. As a mod you really can't even toe the line. Members get the wrong idea. If normal people have to follow the rules to a certain degree, mods have to do it better.
  
  *edit
  Also, you guys are saying that you've only asked a member to remove their sig once, but I recall pretty clearly there were many more than just one incident.
• Murasaki wrote on 2012-09-11 03:04
  No, we're not saying we don't ask people to remove their signature. We're saying we make a point of not forcibly removing the signatures ourselves. We try to communicate with the person first. I will admit I did remove a signature today, and that was due to content. There was a word in there that's technically banned here, and it's a word that people can be offended by. In other cases, if the signature breaks the rules, we'll usually spoiler, let the person know why, and offer suggestions, like resizing, or cropping.
  
  I take no offense if you block my signature. I can understand why someone would. I just wanted to have a bit of fun (without breaking the rules, of course). I 'll be the first to admit that it's barely within the rules, but it's within the rules nonetheless. People fought to allow this sort of content, and while I don't want the forum to be flooded with it, I do think I can have my occasional fun. I've hardly stopped being myself just because I'm a staff member; I doubt they would have let me become a staff member if they had issues with my personality anyway. I've never broken the rules and don't plan to, so if anyone asks about my signature, I'll be very clear that I'm basically at the limit of the content allowed.
  
  A lot of things bugged me about TA, but that's not something I'll get into here. As a matter of fact, though, I do remember the exact thread you're talking about.
  
  

  Quote from Kollin;949610:

  I hate to say it, but infractions and things are handed out on a "am I friends with this person?" basis. Usually when it gets out of control and everyone complains about it do the mods that are working then do something about it. There are plenty of things I have said that I really should have gotten an infraction for, and was surprised when I didn't. Then you have cases where someone does something minor, maybe not really even an offense, and get infracted or even banned. I know you guys tried, but that is usually what it comes to when moderating a forum. Who likes who and who gets in trouble based on that.

  
  
  If you feel like there are cases where you should have been infracted, and know exactly where these are, let us know and we'll see. I infract anyone if they deserve it. Personally there are people I'd love to infract, but they're not breaking the rules, so I'm not going to. I guess that's not something a staff member should be admitting to, but on the other hand, I guess it's nice for people to know that no matter how much I hate someone, they're safe as long as they don't break the rules. 8D
  
  Some people do minor things, and they do it repetitively, despite frequent intervention. If you think someone was infracted for something they didn't deserve, again, finding the specific instance would be very helpful. We do want to take a look at anything that may be considered unfair.
  
  EDIT: woops. I could have sworn I hit edit and not made a new post altogether. ONE MOMENT.
• Taycat wrote on 2012-09-11 03:30

  Quote from Murasaki;949631:

  No, we're not saying we don't ask people to remove their signature. We're saying we make a point of not forcibly removing the signatures ourselves. We try to communicate with the person first. I will admit I did remove a signature today, and that was due to content. There was a word in there that's technically banned here, and it's a word that people can be offended by. In other cases, if the signature breaks the rules, we'll usually spoiler, let the person know why, and offer suggestions, like resizing, or cropping.
  
  I take no offense if you block my signature. I can understand why someone would. I just wanted to have a bit of fun (without breaking the rules, of course). I 'll be the first to admit that it's barely within the rules, but it's within the rules nonetheless. People fought to allow this sort of content, and while I don't want the forum to be flooded with it, I do think I can have my occasional fun. I've hardly stopped being myself just because I'm a staff member; I doubt they would have let me become a staff member if they had issues with my personality anyway. I've never broken the rules and don't plan to, so if anyone asks about my signature, I'll be very clear that I'm basically at the limit of the content allowed.
  
  A lot of things bugged me about TA, but that's not something I'll get into here. As a matter of fact, though, I do remember the exact thread you're talking about.
  
  
  
  If you feel like there are cases where you should have been infracted, and know exactly where these are, let us know and we'll see. I infract anyone if they deserve it. Personally there are people I'd love to infract, but they're not breaking the rules, so I'm not going to. I guess that's not something a staff member should be admitting to, but on the other hand, I guess it's nice for people to know that no matter how much I hate someone, they're safe as long as they don't break the rules. 8D
  
  Some people do minor things, and they do it repetitively, despite frequent intervention. If you think someone was infracted for something they didn't deserve, again, finding the specific instance would be very helpful. We do want to take a look at anything that may be considered unfair.
  
  EDIT: woops. I could have sworn I hit edit and not made a new post altogether. ONE MOMENT.

  
  
  I get where you're coming at, but the bottom line is that you're on the boundary of breaking a rule and that's not what you should be settings as an example. At least, to me it's not. I do love your art and coloring, but there are times where you must just say no to something. For you the sig is perfect but to others it's disturbing to see. It's been stated many times, but really, would you rather continue this argument for many more pages or would you rather end it here and now and just change the sig a bit? :o
  
  /my two cents
• Valkyrio wrote on 2012-09-11 03:47

  Quote from Mythical Detective Loki;949635:

  I get where you're coming at, but the bottom line is that you're on the boundary of breaking a rule and that's not what you should be settings as an example. At least, to me it's not. I do love your art and coloring, but there are times where you must just say no to something. For you the sig is perfect but to others it's disturbing to see. It's been stated many times, but really, would you rather continue this argument for many more pages or would you rather end it here and now and just change the sig a bit? :o
  
  /my two cents

  
  
  From an outsider's perspective:
  
  I feel that the signature is simply borderline - and that if it was a random person who had the signature, it would've been removed. But because it's someone who is known in the community, it was approved.
  
  This is part of the favoritism that I think others are pointing out. IMO, it's not right, but I don't think it's going to change. That's just how nation's community is and will be, I think.
• Murasaki wrote on 2012-09-11 03:56

  Quote from Mythical Detective Loki;949635:

  I get where you're coming at, but the bottom line is that you're on the boundary of breaking a rule and that's not what you should be settings as an example. At least, to me it's not. I do love your art and coloring, but there are times where you must just say no to something. For you the sig is perfect but to others it's disturbing to see. It's been stated many times, but really, would you rather continue this argument for many more pages or would you rather end it here and now and just change the sig a bit? :o
  
  /my two cents

  
  
  I'm not really here to argue about my signature. Not everyone is going to like it and I accept that.
  
  On Valkyrio's comment: I don't know if it was accepted for that reason, but if it was, then I'll find that upsetting more than flattering. I didn't become a staff member to be above other people, and certainly not to be above the rules. If I'm going to do something that people may consider iffy, I make sure to tread carefully. Nontheless, if it really bothers people this much, I may need to change it more quickly than I thought. I don't want this thread to be about my signature but it feels like a good chunk of it is. That'll be my main reason for changing it. It has to wait until tomorrow, though. I get off in like 5 minutes.
  
  EDIT: Actually, looks like I made it in time.
• Valkyrio wrote on 2012-09-11 04:06
  It's not really your signature, I think it was just a symptom of the favoritism that was brought up, and hence why it was mainly used as an example for discussion.
• Murasaki wrote on 2012-09-11 04:12
  I know that's at least part of it, but that's not really all that's being discussed about it. In any case, I do need to get going so I won't be able to address anything that may be specific to me until tomorrow. Goodnight!
• Reptile wrote on 2012-09-11 04:18

  Quote from Hazeri;949396:

  You're missing my point. I have nothing against risque things, and the I don't spend much time looking at signatures.
  The thing is, if risque sigs have been an issue in the past, why fan the flames? Aren't mods supposed to set the example?
  
  How can you as Mod X, ask user Y to remove his offensive signature when you as a mod, are doing the same.

  
  keep in mind that the rules were recently refined
  I suggest that if someone wants to put something borderline rule-breaking in their signature to PM a mod to check
  
  
  I'm bored of , guys lets get like purple or blue or some shit
  
  
  

  Quote from Valkyrio;949472:

  I'll be honest.
  
  I joined just over a year ago, and before that I lurked for a while. But in Mabination, there are certain things that just seem set in stone. The favoritism is part of that. I've seen suggestions that made sense, only to be ignored - with irrational responses by the people in power/friends of the people in power. Complaining about any of these seems to be mostly useless. There's also troll posts/useless posts that should have been deleted, and posts that are encouraged which add absolutely nothing to the discussion/knowledge base of Mabinogi. I mean, I've seen how diligently the spam rule is enforced - and yet when someone makes a topic which is obviously trash (and I mean obviously, like some of the posts in the general discussions forum that apply only to that person and no one else or are basically just their own fantasies) instead of being labeled spam, deleted, and an infraction given out, it's just left there to fester.
  
  Thing is, that's just how Mabination is, and I don't think that's going to change. People are cliquey, people are flippant, people are sarcastic and others are irrational. From an outsider's perspective, this is how I see most of Mabination's regular, central users. It's less of a community and more like a big inside joke. The level of immaturity hurts sometimes. It's also the reason why 99% of my posts are in the Questions & Help forum, because I just can't stand seeing some people's posts, even just in the general discussion forum.
  
  Some of my opinion is colored by my dislike of some of Mabination's members, but most of it really isn't about any one person. The entire community just seems broken. And I don't think that there's anything you can really do to fix it. Despite this, there are a few people who are amazing at giving out information, and that's why I stay.

  
  I'll admit that there used to be a major issues of playing favorites but things really HAVE changed
  I'm friends with a lot of the staff and I have like 5 pages of infractions and warnings and have been banned twice
  
  one more infraction and I'm gone. for good. I've been banned by some of my best friends
  they no longer play favorites and I'm proof of it
  keep in mind that just because you don't see something being done about it doesn't mean it isn't happening
• Episkey wrote on 2012-09-11 04:22
  I can honestly say that if there's a picture that offends you - find a way to personally remove or block it. I mean, within all feasibility.
  
  It is a bit disheartening when I have to say to myself - "Geez. I can't browse Nation while I'm at school - who knows what'll be on my screen when I scroll down". If you were to look at me, you would think I was some paranoid schizophrenic looking around my surroundings every 5 seconds. In the end, I just personally decided to limit myself to viewing Mabination on my home computer.
  
  I mean, I completely understand why you might not always be able to block an image due to being in a computer that isn't your own. But if you ARE in your main computer, I can tell you that not being able to see certain pictures or phrases has made my Mabination viewing experience a lot better.
  
  
  On the topic of people not deserving or deserving infractions, I feel as if there are two major issues:
  
  1-) People need to learn how to use the report button. I mean, if you see something that might be breaking the rules - then report it. Honestly ... let the mods handle whether or not it's actually breaking the rules, that's their responsibility - not yours.
  
  You would not believe the myriad (yes Piero - I know D:) of times I've been privately told how no one, besides me, reported an obvious rule-breaking post. I'm not going on an ego trip here - but just trying to point out that maybe ... just maybe ... people should be behooved to report questionable content.
  
  And you know - it's okay to screw up as a reporter! I've reported things and been told that it doesn't break the rules. So? I just move on with my life and try to be a bit more vigilant in what I report.
  
  I'm not saying to report everything that you don't agree with, but simply bring to the Staff's attention certain posts or concepts of a questionable nature. The Staff aren't omniscient, they don't know everything that goes on Mabination.
  
  
  Now then - on the topic of omniscience ...
  
  
  2-) Users don't know the amount of points another user has accumulated.
  
  If you take a look at how the infraction system works - you will notice something. A person could ... let's say just have served their three day ban and are sitting at ten points. If they receive a Moderate infraction for "Rude/Offensive Behavior", they are now at 14 points.
  
  And then - you complain that nothing was done against them. What's the lesson to be learned here?
  
  Just because someone is not banned after doing something that breaks the rules, does not mean that nothing happened.
  
  This issue is further exacerbated by the fact that minor and moderate infractions can expire and henceforth reduce the amount of points a user has accumulated. Therefore, unless you have privy information as to how exactly the person was infracted - you can't make any claims of favoritism. And trust me, I've been a part of several events that led to the punishment of users. There was no favoritism present in the way the Staff handled their ultimate decision.
  
  Now, has that always been the case? Most likely not. The Staff are people, just like users of Mabination. So they are of course subjected to their own personal biases and whatnot - to ignore this would be foolish at best.
  
  However, any affects of bias is mitigated by the fact that the Staff ... or most of them ... work as a team. Even if one staff member "favors" a particular user - I can guarantee you that the rest of the Staff may not hold the same views.
  
  For example ... me! Hahahaha.~
  
  
  As for any personal feedback on my part, the subject of users linking offensive and questionable material was brought up. I would also like to state that I've noticed this to be an issue.
  
  Just because you spoiler-tag and say "NSFW" a picture that breaks in the rules in Bean Rua - shouldn't make that picture be allowed. Of course, that just means that I should be more vigilant when such a thing occurs ... but I would be grateful if the Mods could kind of keep their eyes open for that sort of thing.
  
  Thanks.~
• Kazuni wrote on 2012-09-11 04:26
  ^ skimmed the post
  
  "if you don't like it block it"
  
  not the correct way to go about something that's borderline rulebreaking. some people don't have the freedom to look at naked women on their computers at home =_=
• Reptile wrote on 2012-09-11 04:30

  Quote from Kazuni;949670:

  ^ skimmed the post
  
  "if you don't like it block it"
  
  not the correct way to go about something that's borderline rulebreaking. some people don't have the freedom to look at naked women on their computers at home =_=

  
  
  disable signatures
  PG13 movies show boobs, I don't see why a site that 16+ shouldn't be able to have boobs if it's tasteful
• Juno wrote on 2012-09-11 04:33

  Quote from Valkyrio;949591:

  We're starting to derail the thread though. :/

  
  
  No worries, that's the whole point of this thread.
  
  

  Quote from MDL:

  Basically this.
  I mean, heck, I used a pic of two girls squishing their boobs together and nothing was showing and still got infracted for it ._.

  
  
  I don't see any record of that infraction :x Though, if memory serves, it was certainly a sexually charged image. I can't say whether it'd be allowed or not without seeing it.
  
  

  Quote from Kueh:

  My big issue is the rules of bean rua.
  
  Rules are handled on a case-by-case basis, which makes me sometimes have to wonder, "If I post this, will I get an infraction."
  
  Like a certain someone receiving certain penal action for spamming excessively where the "do not spam" rule doesn't apply, where other people break other minor rules, such as necro posting, and don't get infractions. (I don't want to hear, "But you don't know that we penalize people" because I'm the one necro posting

  
  
  We weren't clear on that, at first. Bean Rua is an 'anything goes' zone, so we've modified the rules to reflect that. Also, we're really lax on necro posting. It's not a necro until past 2 months, and in certain cases, we'll extend that.
  
  

  Quote from Kollin:

  I hate to say it, but infractions and things are handed out on a "am I friends with this person?" basis. Usually when it gets out of control and everyone complains about it do the mods that are working then do something about it. There are plenty of things I have said that I really should have gotten an infraction for, and was surprised when I didn't. Then you have cases where someone does something minor, maybe not really even an offense, and get infracted or even banned. I know you guys tried, but that is usually what it comes to when moderating a forum. Who likes who and who gets in trouble based on that.

  
  
  In any major incident, we all review the case. That means that unless every staff member likes you and wants to bend the rules for you, you'll get what's coming to you.
  
  At the same time, we try to avoid giving infractions out willy nilly. If there's a large commotion, infractions only go out to the primary offenders while we give the whole community a verbal reprimand.
  
  There may have been other times where you weren't infracted when you should have been, but unless it slipped under my radar, it wasn't due to favoritism.
• Taycat wrote on 2012-09-11 04:38

  Quote from Reptile;949672:

  disable signatures
  PG13 movies show boobs, I don't see why a site that 16+ shouldn't be able to have boobs if it's tasteful

  
  
  That's what I was thinking.
• Episkey wrote on 2012-09-11 04:38

  Quote from Kazuni;949670:

  ^ skimmed the post
  
  "if you don't like it block it"
  
  not the correct way to go about something that's borderline rulebreaking. some people don't have the freedom to look at naked women on their computers at home =_=

  
  
  Not the point of my post. I said - block it if you can, but also recognize the ability to report things that could be considered rule-breaking.
  I also don't want to be viewing such images as well, I'm not at the liberty to do as such. I'm not going to impose my personal taste and distaste on others - if it doesn't break the rules, then what can you do?
  
  However, if you really want to go down your route - I would suggest making a formal complaint to the Staff and see if you can "rectify" the situation. If that so pleases you.