Mages Should At Least Keep Windmill

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Lan wrote on 2010-07-27 10:42

Quote from Justified;106500:
Doubt it. I don't see how there's going to be any change, if anything Wizards will use less MP pots than they do now, and since people won't be dabbling in low-rank magic without being a Wizard, less people will be using potions in the first place.

Plus, 3-4 MP per level is a LOT. That gets me to around 700 MP instead of 440 MP by the time I reach my usual level cap (without Thunder... other people should be able to reach around 900 MP). Almost double.

The only problem is the damage nerf which has nothing to do with the class system.

Doesn't the new Int formula make up for it?
IceBlade wrote on 2010-07-27 10:57

Quote from Juno;105245:
It's not a replacement per se, it's an alternate means of doing so. Like all other magic it has a cast time but once prepared you can unleash enough for most any situation. If you find yourself in a place where you only have 0.8s to kb a bunch of mobs, you're doing it wrong.

I meant more in the situation where you fight mobs with MD, even if a full charge would kill them, you still have 6 sec that you have to defend yourself by other means. So having a 0.8 sec skill that you can use when the mob is charging at you is a life saver at times. If they gave us an other skill to fill this gap then I'd be content with losing wm even tough it's cost me millions for -Cp gear.

And every human will need wm to complete G1 and G3.

Quote from Justified;106500:
Doubt it. I don't see how there's going to be any change, if anything Wizards will use less MP pots than they do now, and since people won't be dabbling in low-rank magic without being a Wizard, less people will be using potions in the first place.

Plus, 3-4 MP per level is a LOT. That gets me to around 700 MP instead of 440 MP by the time I reach my usual level cap (without Thunder... other people should be able to reach around 900 MP). Almost double.

The only problem is the damage nerf which has nothing to do with the class system.

I think the 3-4 mp is per age up, you only get 1/4 of that for lvl up. At least that's what they're saying in the other thread about it.

Quote from Lan;106501:
Doesn't the new Int formula make up for it?

Only if you've got 400+ Int and only if the 1% damage per 20 Int formula is implemented. On the wiki it shows a different formula though. 1+(Int/2000) percent. So if we get that formula then even with doing the imposable and getting 2k int you'll only get a 2% boost :/
Justified wrote on 2010-07-27 11:49

Quote from IceBlade;106504:
I meant more in the situation where you fight mobs with MD, even if a full charge would kill them, you still have 6 sec that you have to defend yourself by other means. So having a 0.8 sec skill that you can use when the mob is charging at you is a life saver at times. If they gave us an other skill to fill this gap then I'd be content with losing wm even tough it's cost me millions for -Cp gear.

And every human will need wm to complete G1 and G3.

Only if you've got 400+ Int and only if the 1% damage per 20 Int formula is implemented. On the wiki it shows a different formula though. 1+(Int/2000) percent. So if we get that formula then even with doing the imposable and getting 2k int you'll only get a 2% boost :/

What would you do after Windmill? The only viable option would be defense, since the stun isn't long enough for anything else (for normal or fast mobs that charge after kb). Also the idea for magic is that you full charge before getting aggro. Advance Magic range is long enough, while you can simply walk away for bolts. There's no reason to stand in-range for 6 seconds while charging magic. Chaincast Firebolt is also only 2 seconds if you go the oneshot-onekill method.

I didn't need Windmill when I did G1-G3. It wasn't until way after G3 that people started telling me that Windmill was the skill to rank, until then I just thought it was a stupid skill since it used HP. Smash and Icebolt got me all the way through those generations.

And the wiki is just worded wrong as usual. 1 + Int/2000 is the same as 1% per 20 Int. At 400 Int it'll be 1 + 400/2000 = 1.20, or +20%.
Also, even with 400 Int magic will still be weaker. 1 - 20% = 0.8 * 120% = 0.96
Then you lose the original Int bonus of around 40 damage for 400 Int, which for bolt spells is around 25-50%. Advance Magic is around 10%.
In short, unless you have way over 600 Int, you're way below breaking even.
Vejosa wrote on 2010-07-27 15:30

I mentioned this on Nexon Forums.
Wizards/Mages Should Not need to even touch windmill.

I'm a Giant mage with about 509 MP and 518 int (depending on my level), My windmill is rank F, I very RARELY use it.
Windmill is useless to me since I have like 60 strength.
As a mage the key is to NOT get multi aggroed, by sticking to corners and safespots.

When I do get Multi Aggroed, I simply Turn on mana shield, and take out my enemies one at a time (of course now that I have blaze this becomes much easier).
I normally always have some sort of poison on my wands as well so when I do have to hit a monster I poison them as an added effect. (Poison works with blaze by the way).
Aubog007 wrote on 2010-07-27 16:26

Quote from IceBlade;106504:

And every human will need wm to complete G1 and G3.

Back when G1 was released i didn't even have WM when i beat G1
Cide wrote on 2010-07-27 16:34

Quote from Juno;105914:
What's wrong with bards? They don't lose any skills they'd be using anyway, they even have windmill. They get a healthy dex increase and access to two new skills.

barrier spikes, mana shield. :( this is important because a lot of elf archers are rather squishy as is and missed shots = death without spikes/ms.

edit: windmill works too if you have little lag, but i don't feel like pulling up the chart right now to see if bards have access to wm.
Tatsigi wrote on 2010-07-27 16:35

Quote from Vejosa;106559:
I mentioned this on Nexon Forums.
Wizards/Mages Should Not need to even touch windmill.

I'm a Giant mage with about 509 MP and 518 int (depending on my level), My windmill is rank F, I very RARELY use it.
Windmill is useless to me since I have like 60 strength.
As a mage the key is to NOT get multi aggroed, by sticking to corners and safespots.

When I do get Multi Aggroed, I simply Turn on mana shield, and take out my enemies one at a time (of course now that I have blaze this becomes much easier).
I normally always have some sort of poison on my wands as well so when I do have to hit a monster I poison them as an added effect. (Poison works with blaze by the way).

^ So true, I am a human mage with rank 9 WM just to say I'm not rank F. I have like 60 str too. Most mages rarely use WM
Zid wrote on 2010-07-27 16:46

Quote from Justified;106515:
What would you do after Windmill? The only viable option would be defense, since the stun isn't long enough for anything else (for normal or fast mobs that charge after kb). Also the idea for magic is that you full charge before getting aggro. Advance Magic range is long enough, while you can simply walk away for bolts. There's no reason to stand in-range for 6 seconds while charging magic. Chaincast Firebolt is also only 2 seconds if you go the oneshot-onekill method.

Personally, even with a wand, it'd be Windmill -> pet swipe -> Mana Shield (There's no guarantee I'll be activating it in time when mobbed) -> Whack/Blaze or, if the aggro doesn't allow quick retaliation, whip an Ice Spear. There are going to be times, when mobbed, where the best course of action is to rely on a wand's splash, then Ice Spear or N+Blaze your way out. That's not 100% of the time.

Also, a mage doesn't play exactly the same as the next mage. Just because Windmill doesn't work/seem useless to a mage doesn't mean it's the same for the other mage, nor makes that mage "any less". Whatever works for them, works. Assuming a player, who is a Wizard, is proficient in the field of basic/intermediate magic might end up wrong. Even if it's just a beginner and the beginner may switch out later on.

There can be errors, and right now, the Wizard's punishment for errors can be deep for some people. Seeing how the option of Wizard is available to any character upon character creation/rebirth, it can't be assumed Wizards are just for high-lvl magic users.

Just because you "rarely" use Windmill, doesn't mean you never use 100% of the time. You still used it, meaning you used it in some sort of situation that your magic skills couldn't handle. Whether that be as simple as zombies, or as complex as a Hardmode Advanced dungeon.
Vejosa wrote on 2010-07-27 16:56

Quote from Zid;106588:

Just because you "rarely" use Windmill, doesn't mean you never use 100% of the time. You still used it, meaning you used it in some sort of situation that your magic skills couldn't handle. Whether that be as simple as zombies, or as complex as a Hardmode Advanced dungeon.

I use windmill mainly to fool around, in 1% pvp.
In dungeons if I need any windmilling done I get my pets(that one solo mission in G10) or my meat shields to do it for me, I dont touch monsters like zombie or anything that is immune to magic.
When these monsters arrive I switch to healer mode and heal spam my Tanker friends that enjoy windmill spamming through whole dungeons, like ballet dancers.
Zid wrote on 2010-07-27 16:59

Quote from Vejosa;106594:
I use windmill mainly to fool around, in 1% pvp.
In dungeons if I need any windmilling done I get my pets(that one solo mission in G10) or my meat shields to do it for me, I dont touch monsters like zombie or anything that is immune to magic.
When these monsters arrive I switch to healer mode and heal spam my Tanker friends that enjoy windmill spamming like a ballet dancer.

That's good for you then. Whatever floats your boat (using your pets and party members).
Vejosa wrote on 2010-07-27 17:11

Thanks :D
As you can see this system is helping promote party play in Mabinogi, which is a good thing for any MMORPG because it helps develop the community even more. Those that wish to stay hybrid may do so as they please every rebirth.
To me and i'm sure a lot of other Pure mages(not hybrid mages) the loss of windmill really isn't a big deal... now if they took away counter attack.. that might be a differen't story.
Juno wrote on 2010-07-27 17:18

Quote from Cide;106583:
barrier spikes, mana shield. :( this is important because a lot of elf archers are rather squishy as is and missed shots = death without spikes/ms.

edit: windmill works too if you have little lag, but i don't feel like pulling up the chart right now to see if bards have access to wm.

They do. Can't train it, but they can use it.

Remember the new masteries give +15% damage or something like that, so you only really need 100 int to break even on a 20% nerf.
EndlessDreams wrote on 2010-07-27 17:29

Mages don't need WM, they just need mana shield uncapped so they can laugh at practically all the current attacks in the game. Corner play with pets is usually enough for mages.

And tons of mana pots.
Chockeh wrote on 2010-07-27 17:41

I don't think WM should get banned.
It's extremely useful in any situation.
Offensive or defensive.
IceBlade wrote on 2010-07-27 22:49

Quote from Justified;106515:
What would you do after Windmill? The only viable option would be defense, since the stun isn't long enough for anything else (for normal or fast mobs that charge after kb). Also the idea for magic is that you full charge before getting aggro. Advance Magic range is long enough, while you can simply walk away for bolts. There's no reason to stand in-range for 6 seconds while charging magic. Chaincast Firebolt is also only 2 seconds if you go the oneshot-onekill method.

I didn't need Windmill when I did G1-G3. It wasn't until way after G3 that people started telling me that Windmill was the skill to rank, until then I just thought it was a stupid skill since it used HP. Smash and Icebolt got me all the way through those generations.

And the wiki is just worded wrong as usual. 1 + Int/2000 is the same as 1% per 20 Int. At 400 Int it'll be 1 + 400/2000 = 1.20, or +20%.
Also, even with 400 Int magic will still be weaker. 1 - 20% = 0.8 * 120% = 0.96
Then you lose the original Int bonus of around 40 damage for 400 Int, which for bolt spells is around 25-50%. Advance Magic is around 10%.
In short, unless you have way over 600 Int, you're way below breaking even.

I actually did say a full charge and walking away to charge a bolt wouldn't always work since you can only hit one target leaving the rest of the mob on you. Plus you're most likely in a corner so no where to walk to.

Using Smash on Zombies is pretty risky and you'd probably die allot. And unless you can hit over 1.5k Smash damage, then you wouldn't be able to ever kill a Lycanthrope. But you could have taken some wm friend with you to take care of them, but I do think the Binding quest is solo tough.

Thanks for explaining the formula on the wiki to me, I had thought it was already in % lol
And we'll probably lose the current X1.1 magic damage bonus as well, so I have a feeling that even with the masteries and 600 Int you'd not be able to make the loss of damage up. To tired to do the math :(

Quote from Aubog007;106578:
Back when G1 was released i didn't even have WM when i beat G1

It would be interesting to know how you did Albey Blue/Goddess and the binding quest without wm. Though with Albey Blue/Goddess you could have taken some wm friends with you.

Quote from Zid;106588:
Also, a mage doesn't play exactly the same as the next mage. Just because Windmill doesn't work/seem useless to a mage doesn't mean it's the same for the other mage, nor makes that mage "any less". Whatever works for them, works. Assuming a player, who is a Wizard, is proficient in the field of basic/intermediate magic might end up wrong. Even if it's just a beginner and the beginner may switch out later on.

There can be errors, and right now, the Wizard's punishment for errors can be deep for some people. Seeing how the option of Wizard is available to any character upon character creation/rebirth, it can't be assumed Wizards are just for high-lvl magic users.

Just because you "rarely" use Windmill, doesn't mean you never use 100% of the time. You still used it, meaning you used it in some sort of situation that your magic skills couldn't handle. Whether that be as simple as zombies, or as complex as a Hardmode Advanced dungeon.

Thank you.

Quote from Vejosa;106611:
Thanks :D
As you can see this system is helping promote party play in Mabinogi, which is a good thing for any MMORPG because it helps develop the community even more. Those that wish to stay hybrid may do so as they please every rebirth.
To me and i'm sure a lot of other Pure mages(not hybrid mages) the loss of windmill really isn't a big deal... now if they took away counter attack.. that might be a differen't story.

I think that mostly shows the difference in play style. For you losing counter is a big deal while I'd gladly have given up Counter. On the other hand you'd gladly give up Wm, while I'd rather not have to give it up.

And on the other had, does my use of WM make me any more of a hybrid than your use of Counter? Are ether of us still a Pure Mage anyway?

Quote from Chocklitshop;106640:
I don't think WM should get banned.
It's extremely useful in any situation.
Offensive or defensive.

Thank you as well.

P.S. If anything I said don't make sense, then it's because I should have been asleep a long time ago lol

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