Mages Should At Least Keep Windmill

• Chihaya wrote on 2010-07-27 23:28

  Quote from Phunkie;104981:

  Windmill comes in handy in some situations.
  
  You can't deny that. haha
  
  And some mobs you just cannot take down with simply magic. It calls for more than just that sometimes.

  
  
  Zombies anyone? ;)
• Justified wrote on 2010-07-28 19:19

  Quote from Zid;106588:

  Also, a mage doesn't play exactly the same as the next mage. Just because Windmill doesn't work/seem useless to a mage doesn't mean it's the same for the other mage, nor makes that mage "any less".
  
  Seeing how the option of Wizard is available to any character upon character creation/rebirth, it can't be assumed Wizards are just for high-lvl magic users.
  
  Just because you "rarely" use Windmill, doesn't mean you never use 100% of the time. You still used it, meaning you used it in some sort of situation that your magic skills couldn't handle. Whether that be as simple as zombies, or as complex as a Hardmode Advanced dungeon.

  
  
  Your initial statement was that "Wizards should have access to Windmill because it is useful to them." But now you're saying certain things are only useful to certain people, making your initial statement null. I'm saying that the majority of Wizards don't actually use it, and even those who did have viable alternatives, meaning they don't need access to it and are fine without it.
  
  And for people who aren't developed mages, they shouldn't choose the Wizard class, they should stick to Adventurer or something else. That's like me complaining that the Bard class is too restricting because I can't do anything with my low-ranked range.
  
  Lycans and Zombies also are not good arguments. Bind quest isn't necessary for G1, and likewise you'd probably have friends helping you since most of G1 is a three member quest. A person who chose Wizard and then decided to train at Zombies should just not play the game in the first place, they need to go back to school.
  
  The argument that using a skill at all means I "needed" it doesn't make sense. If you used Smash on a Zombie as an opening attack, does that mean you needed Smash? No, just that you felt like using it. Do you need trans to beat a Ciar Int golem? No, but odds are you would use it when you got there.
  
  

  Quote from IceBlade:

  I actually did say a full charge and walking away to charge a bolt wouldn't always work since you can only hit one target leaving the rest of the mob on you. Plus you're most likely in a corner so no where to walk to.

  
  
  I can't think of a single place that a person would solo where they would have any real trouble dealing with multi-aggro. In most cases, you can shoot a mob and run back to a corner before getting multi. In other cases, Advance Magic has no problem dealing with it.
  
  
  My question is, how many people here is/are/were actually pure mages (meaning rF or no Windmill) at some point and still think that Windmill is a great asset?
• Tatsigi wrote on 2010-07-28 19:24

  Quote from Justified;108093:

  Your initial statement was that "Wizards should have access to Windmill because it is useful to them." But now you're saying certain things are only useful to certain people, making your initial statement null. I'm saying that the majority of Wizards don't actually use it, and even those who did have viable alternatives, meaning they don't need access to it and are fine without it.
  
  And for people who aren't developed mages, they shouldn't choose the Wizard class, they should stick to Adventurer or something else. That's like me complaining that the Bard class is too restricting because I can't do anything with my low-ranked range.
  
  Lycans and Zombies also are not good arguments. Bind quest isn't necessary for G1, and likewise you'd probably have friends helping you since most of G1 is a three member quest. A person who chose Wizard and then decided to train at Zombies should just not play the game in the first place, they need to go back to school.
  
  The argument that using a skill at all means I "needed" it doesn't make sense. If you used Smash on a Zombie as an opening attack, does that mean you needed Smash? No, just that you felt like using it. Do you need trans to beat a Ciar Int golem? No, but odds are you would use it when you got there.
  
  
  
  I can't think of a single place that a person would solo where they would have any real trouble dealing with multi-aggro. In most cases, you can shoot a mob and run back to a corner before getting multi. In other cases, Advance Magic has no problem dealing with it.
  
  
  My question is, how many people here is/are/were actually pure mages (meaning rF or no Windmill) at some point and still think that Windmill is a great asset?

  
  
  I am a pure mage with rank F WM. Never use. Never will use. Whats the point of Wming when u can stay in the corner and spam thunder.
• BobYoMeowMeow wrote on 2010-07-28 19:47
  okay this thread should be locked by now.
  No more skill restrictions
• Zid wrote on 2010-07-28 20:23

  Quote from Justified;108093:

  Your initial statement was that "Wizards should have access to Windmill because it is useful to them." But now you're saying certain things are only useful to certain people, making your initial statement null. I'm saying that the majority of Wizards don't actually use it, and even those who did have viable alternatives, meaning they don't need access to it and are fine without it.

  
  
  It doesn't make it null. What I pointed out were exceptions to the case. It's just as valid as saying "Wizards shouldn't have access to Windmill because it isn't useful to them." Which there are exceptions to, too.
  
  I also pointed out that you did use Windmill, as opposed to not (which means 100% not going to use). Meaning, at some point, it was useful. Vejosa also found Windmill useful (rather indirectly), else she wouldn't have to rely on pet/other's Windmill. While that example doesn't prove she need access to it, it demonstrate how even a mage like her need Windmill in her play time in Mabinogi. If she didn't have pets or other party members, what's to say that she doesn't need access to Windmill every so often?
  
  Having access to a skill doesn't necessarily correlate to needing it or not needing it. You could say Wizards have access to Rest too, but do they need it? Probably, probably not.
  
  The majority of Wizards mean there are a few who do. Viable alternatives or not, it's still showing Windmill in use in situations. Maybe not everyday situations to you, but it's there. It also doesn't mean they don't need it, nor fine without it.
  
  

  Quote from Justified;108093:

  And for people who aren't developed mages, they shouldn't choose the Wizard class, they should stick to Adventurer or something else. That's like me complaining that the Bard class is too restricting because I can't do anything with my low-ranked range.

  
  
  Telling someone what they should and should not do is another story. There are going to be players who don't follow someone else's personal instructions to being a Wizard in their minds. Penalizing them with no Windmill as a Wizard can be a teaching tool, but it's just one teaching tool in one out of many's guides to a Wizard in their own mold. I don't how many actual Wizards-in-training would force themselves to completely follow one's setup to their definition of a good Wizard. If they want to use Windmill, they should be allowed to because that's how Mabinogi is, not because a person's definition of a good Wizard.
  
  

  Quote from Justified;108093:

  Lycans and Zombies also are not good arguments. Bind quest isn't necessary for G1, and likewise you'd probably have friends helping you since most of G1 is a three member quest. A person who chose Wizard and then decided to train at Zombies should just not play the game in the first place, they need to go back to school.

  
  
  It doesn't matter if they're not good arguments, they are there. And thus there needs to be an answer, an effective answer, to them. Having other people help you is great, really (I support that). However, the system before it doesn't penalize those who didn't have people to help, not as heavily as this. If the idea of party play is to be promoted, that's fine. But trading it off by taking away this skill that could deal with those situations is not a good trade-off, in my opinion.
  
  

  Quote from Justified;108093:

  The argument that using a skill at all means I "needed" it doesn't make sense. If you used Smash on a Zombie as an opening attack, does that mean you needed Smash? No, just that you felt like using it. Do you need trans to beat a Ciar Int golem? No, but odds are you would use it when you got there.

  
  
  You're using examples where "I only felt like doing it". The argument can be both where you do and do not need it. It's the same as "If you used Windmill on a Lycan as an opening attack, does that mean you needed Windmill?" While you can argue that a strong enough Smash (or 2) will do the work, what if it didn't? It'll just level up and negate your dmg work, right? Just as there are situations where if you use a skill means you don't need it, there are situations where if you use a skill means you do need it.
  
  

  Quote from Justified;108093:

  I can't think of a single place that a person would solo where they would have any real trouble dealing with multi-aggro. In most cases, you can shoot a mob and run back to a corner before getting multi. In other cases, Advance Magic has no problem dealing with it.

  
  
  That is your experience.
  
  

  Quote from Justified;108093:

  My question is, how many people here is/are/were actually pure mages (meaning rF or no Windmill) at some point and still think that Windmill is a great asset?

  
  
  I did. Before I decided to rank it up to r1 so it can be more useful. Even with Thunder/Ice Spear.
  
  If that doesn't qualify me as a "pure mage", that is your definition, a subjective matter.