-
Hanna wrote on 2013-02-21 19:30
Quote from Ban;1036770:
I told this to someone in a PM but I thought I'd post it here.
The user in question is like a popular book series that annoys the living hell out of me for numerous reasons. It's always in the book store. Always in my face because of its popularity. But you know what? For it to piss me off even more, I'd have to go out of my way to pick up the damned book and read it. I already know what the book contains. I already know it's going to make me angry. As much as I don't like it, that book has every right to exist, no matter how bad it is. So what do I do? I move on to better books. I don't have to read that book, I don't have to put myself through that. Why do it?
Oh my god this
"If a large amount of people hate it that means there is something wrong with the book, it's not my own problem, it's the writers and it shouldn't be on the shelves"
-
Claudia wrote on 2013-02-21 19:46
I mean, we can all ignore the problem (like some members have been doing all along), but it doesn't solve anything.
If I were a new forumer and the FIRST THING I saw were the posts that the user in question (given the frequency, not hard to believe it'd be the first thing I saw) makes i'd shake my head, leave, and never come back.
Do we want that to be what other people think of Nation? By allowing this person to do as they please here, it allows them to behave the same way in-game and in other realms of the Internet (yes, I have stumbled upon this user in other forums - where they are now, coincidentally, banned for spamming...). It's true that i've heard people complain about this person in-game and in other places.
I know some of the better members (as in, kudos for being able to resist the urge to get involved like I have) are talking about how it's not directly bothering you, but I know that I personally get pissed off in real life if there's a problem and everyone else around me is either choosing to ignore it or not deal with it effectively. If you're asking me to not express my feelings then it creates a tough place because I want to be a part of this community but if people are going to be allowed to run around and show no restraint then I'd rather go somewhere where people take action, even if it's not always the 'right' or 'proper' action.
-
Dracius wrote on 2013-02-21 20:26
Quote from Claudia;1036861:
I mean, we can all ignore the problem (like some members have been doing all along), but it doesn't solve anything.
If I were a new forumer and the FIRST THING I saw were the posts that the user in question (given the frequency, not hard to believe it'd be the first thing I saw) makes i'd shake my head, leave, and never come back.
Do we want that to be what other people think of Nation? By allowing this person to do as they please here, it allows them to behave the same way in-game and in other realms of the Internet (yes, I have stumbled upon this user in other forums - where they are now, coincidentally, banned for spamming...). It's true that i've heard people complain about this person in-game and in other places.
I know some of the better members (as in, kudos for being able to resist the urge to get involved like I have) are talking about how it's not directly bothering you, but I know that I personally get pissed off in real life if there's a problem and everyone else around me is either choosing to ignore it or not deal with it effectively. If you're asking me to not express my feelings then it creates a tough place because I want to be a part of this community but if people are going to be allowed to run around and show no restraint then I'd rather go somewhere where people take action, even if it's not always the 'right' or 'proper' action.
I wouldn't want that person to ever join Nation then, it's completely shallow and definitely single-minded to base an entire site off of one person. Of course, the fact that nearly the rest of the people on this site use proper grammar and spelling never ceases to amaze me (I came from Basilmarket, the armpit-inside-a-buttcrack of the forum world).
Off-topic, but what's with the mods having ban-puns in their names? Just for random fun?
-
Claudia wrote on 2013-02-21 20:38
Well, you can't blame someone for being turned off because of the first thing they see. First impressions matter a lot more than we want them to.
And yes, it's for fun.
OR IS IT???
-
Ban wrote on 2013-02-21 20:39
I was joking around with some guildmates about banning them for something they said on Skype, and while on the mod CP, I thought to myself..."I wonder if the name 'Ban' is taken." It wasn't. However, people kept thinking I was Hannah, which was kind of amusing.
Not too long after she clarified in a thread, and since her name was Cannibal, the closest I could get to her name was "CanIBan" so I told her she should be that. Then someone made a list of possible ban-related names and someone else took "Banner".
My name also comes from my irritation at situations like this, that tend to arise often enough...
-
Jiihae wrote on 2013-02-21 21:32
The problem that I see with the ignore function is that the person in question uses thread titles like the post contents. While titles are usually 3 or so words and to the point, his runs on to a full sentence or two... I myself had attempted using the ignore function but since most of his posts are thread starters and his style of titles is pretty much his first post, I felt it was useless.
Limiting number of threads that a user can start in a short period of time sounds like a good idea, but I feel that maybe modifying the ignore function to have an option to not show threads started by people on the ignore list might be a good alternative. (I think someone suggested that in another thread somewhere)
Honestly though, I didn't even notice this person and the mentioned drama until recently when I started checking up on new posts and [S]lurking[/S] moving beyond the Mabinogi section.
-
Ban wrote on 2013-02-21 21:39
Quote from Jiihae;1036917:
The problem that I see with the ignore function is that the person in question uses thread titles like the post contents. While titles are usually 3 or so words and to the point, his runs on to a full sentence or two... I myself had attempted using the ignore function but since most of his posts are thread starters and his style of titles is pretty much his first post, I felt it was useless.
Limiting number of threads that a user can start in a short period of time sounds like a good idea, but I feel that maybe modifying the ignore function to have an option to not show threads started by people on the ignore list might be a good alternative. (I think someone suggested that in another thread somewhere)
Honestly though, I didn't even notice this person and the mentioned drama until recently when I started checking up on new posts and [S]lurking[/S] moving beyond the Mabinogi section.
Hiding thread titles is not currently possible with this forum's system, but should be available when we switch to Xenforo. I'm not sure when that will be, though, so for now, this is as good as the ignore function is going to get. If we could hide the titles now, we definitely would have.
-
Space Pirate Nithiel wrote on 2013-02-21 21:44
Quote from Ban;1036770:
I told this to someone in a PM but I thought I'd post it here.
The user in question is like a popular book series that annoys the living hell out of me for numerous reasons. It's always in the book store. Always in my face because of its popularity. But you know what? For it to piss me off even more, I'd have to go out of my way to pick up the damned book and read it. I already know what the book contains. I already know it's going to make me angry. As much as I don't like it, that book has every right to exist, no matter how bad it is. So what do I do? I move on to better books. I don't have to read that book, I don't have to put myself through that. Why do it?
The problem with this analogy is that the book isn't just in the book store. You get home and BAM the book is taped to your front door. You go to the bathroom BAM book taped to the toilet. You open your closet. BAM an AVALANCHE of books falls on your head. You go look for food BAM your refrigerator is full of the book! And even if you ignore the book it doesn't change the fact that they are all over your house so you can't go anywhere without seeing them, it just means you can't open them up and read them.
And eventually you're going to want to put all the books in a pile and light them on fire.
-
Ban wrote on 2013-02-21 22:15
Your extension of the analogy doesn't really work. Nation isn't someone's own personal space that someone else has invaded. Nation is a bookstore that anyone can go to. You can see the title of the book and the author, so if you already know you don't like either, there's no need for you to pick the book up.
Nation is a public place that caters to many. You can choose to ignore the stuff you hate, or you can go ahead and read it, and let it drive you mad. It's not like it's hard to point out this user's threads before you even read the title. They have a signature that makes it pretty obvious who they are. The good thing about the internet is there's quite a bit of space, and quite a few places to go. For all intents and purposes, there's no limited number of shelves where people here can put there stuff. No matter how many posts are there that you don't like, it won't stop others from making quality content, and that's what people should be gravitating towards. If you really want someone to not feel like posting anymore, then don't give that person attention.
-
Space Pirate Nithiel wrote on 2013-02-21 22:25
Quote from Ban;1036952:
Your extension of the analogy doesn't really work. Nation isn't someone's own personal space that someone else has invaded. Nation is a bookstore that anyone can go to. You can see the title of the book and the author, so if you already know you don't like either, there's no need for you to pick the book up.
Nation is a public place that caters to many. You can choose to ignore the stuff you hate, or you can go ahead and read it, and let it drive you mad. It's not like it's hard to point out this user's threads before you even read the title. They have a signature that makes it pretty obvious who they are. The good thing about the internet is there's quite a bit of space, and quite a few places to go. For all intents and purposes, there's no limited number of shelves where people here can put there stuff. No matter how many posts are there that you don't like, it won't stop others from making quality content, and that's what people should be gravitating towards. If you really want someone to not feel like posting anymore, then don't give that person attention.
I consider it more of a communal living space, like on those reality shows where we're all living in the same house and so we have to try not to piss each other off for the sake of everyone's sanity.
-
Ban wrote on 2013-02-21 22:38
The problem is that there will always be someone who doesn't understand things half as well as others. While no one pissing anyone off would be ideal, it's never quite possible with this many people, particularly when people can't control themselves. The person in question has actual reasons for being the way he is, but people can't bring themselves to understand that it's just how he is now and it's not as easy for him to change as it would be for someone in a different situation than his.
Unlike other people who have deliberately walked a fine line with the rules before, this person doesn't go out of their way to antagonize people. The best people can hope for is that the person will get themselves in trouble. By adding fuel to the proverbial fire, people are just making our jobs harder, and taking away from the very thing they supposedly want us to focus on. They cause additional problems, and when they want something done by staff, it's not exactly the best idea to distract them from what they think is a problem by creating more problems that are ultimately more detrimental to the community than what the original supposed problem was.
I'm not saying I don't understand how people feel, because believe me, I do, but the difference here is how I react, if I give them any attention at all. Hell, half the time, I'm only paying attention to certain threads because I simply can't trust people to behave themselves anymore.
-
Perfectio wrote on 2013-02-21 22:40
As someone who dislikes the member in question and how he posts, if you're posting in his threads or talking to him, you are part of the problem, period. I don't post in this person's threads, neither should you. He's not going away until he wants to, and the mods aren't going to ban him for having an annoying, disjointed posting style or for asking mabi-related questions that are easily answered.
His threads are annoying. The idea that people can deny access to public space (and the mods and admins have decided that Nation is public space) to someone who annoys them is Jim Crow.
"Hey I don't like them there ******s and ***s, they annoyz me, git them the fuck out of our store!" Inflammatory analogy? Too bad. It comes from the same place. You don't get to deny access to public space to people who annoy you unless they openly break the rules or cause a disruption. If it's good enough for the Supreme Court, it's good enough for Nation. Again, I ignore his threads. Nothing against the guy (once I realized he wasn't actually trolling or being a smartass), I don't like his posts so I don't read them.
I will say though that the mod team could have taken measures to help the situation though by say, moving question threads to the question forum or even the small questions thread with a small reminder that you can find the info on the wiki. Maybe some of the more random threads could be moved into some kind of "Mabinogi random/general chat" thread. Though I don't know what exactly has been done so if this stuff has already been done, forgive me.
Again, ignore the posts and threads in question.
-
Ban wrote on 2013-02-21 22:54
Sorry to edit your posts but I think it's best to keep the thread name-free for now. We know who we're all taking about, but this person doesn't.
As for your suggestion: That has been done before. A lot of those things are things that members won't see because it's done in private. Generally, we'll avoid calling out anyone in public. When I say it's difficult to get this person to understand things, I speak from experience. However, I do understand why it's difficult for him to understand. For the most part, I'd say he's alright. There is the occasional out of place thread but things are alright for the most part. I think there are just certain abilities to deduce things that this person lacks, that others take for granted.
-
Ashikoki wrote on 2013-02-22 00:16
Quote from Ban;1036922:
Hiding thread titles is not currently possible with this forum's system, but should be available when we switch to Xenforo. I'm not sure when that will be, though, so for now, this is as good as the ignore function is going to get. If we could hide the titles now, we definitely would have.
Quote from Ban;1036922:
Hiding thread titles is not currently possible with this forum's system, but should be available when we switch to Xenforo.
Quote from Ban;1036922:
but should be available when we switch to Xenforo.
Quote from Ban;1036922:
when we switch to Xenforo.
Quote from Ban;1036922:
Xenforo.
Quote from Osayidan:
[Image: http://i.minus.com/iboSbSuUcJEVT5.gif]
My only issue with this whole deal is that the staff here are completely irresponsible in every nature as far as letting it come this far in the first place. It has always been a part of this site's history for the staff to constantly fluctuate between two states: anarchy and totalitarian.
For several months it would almost feel as if the mods don't exist, people act however they want, nothing gets addressed. Things that could've been prevented. Hard feelings avoided. Bans unnecessary. Everyone happy. Just tiny bits of bitter medicine at a time, some public announcements, much like this thread we're seeing here, except before swinging around the hax axe and creating some sort of lock down. But instead, the problem bottles up, builds pressure, and erupts like a volcano, suddenly everyone gets a ban, and the rules become stricter (in this case, instant temp ban for flaming).
"We're gonna do some cleaning up around here" - Mods
And for about 2 weeks, the mood here is a literal shit hole. And then for the next 3 months, its going to be exactly like before. No difference. We'll forget we even have mods. Until the next sweep of bans anyways.
None of this had to happen. Moderators aren't just enforcers, they're also
mediators. It didn't take until Hanna and I started to lampshade the issue publicly that the moderators even began to pay attention to the harassment. Frankly I think specific individuals should relinquish their position as a staff member, considered the minimal involvement they share in this site.
-
Ban wrote on 2013-02-22 01:46
^I don't have experience with the Xenforo forums myself, but the blacklist function is supposed to be better there. Granted, I'd rather it didn't have to come to that, but some people really seem to need it.
This whole issue isn't just something we addressed recently. It's been addressed before, though we tried being way more general about it to avoid this being about an individual, or a certain group of individuals. Unfortunately, between then and now, people's behavior either stayed the same or got worse. Some part of me had hoped that people would be able to control themselves when it came to this matter, but that wasn't the case. I should have been more strict from the beginning, and maybe something like this may not have happened. Maybe. There are plenty of people who instead of listening, will simply point the finger back at us and tell us we should be the ones dealing with everything. We will, if it comes to that, but it would be great if people could learn to get along, or at the very least, leave each-other alone, in peace.
That's all behind me, though. I'm not going to be easy on anyone. I gave these people a chance, and they continued their behavior. When it escalated too far, and we all finally had enough of people's behavior, I really began to wish I'd done something sooner. I shouldn't have given people a chance. I shouldn't have given anyone a chance. People would have learned their lesson sooner, and those who didn't, we would have been able to know who they were even quicker.
On a somewhat related note, I'd like to point out that quite a few of us have school and work, and despite that, it doesn't mean we've not taken care of things here. Most of the times, it's things we don't go public with. We're expected to follow our own rules. We're not going to publicly shame someone for something they did. They only time it's very obvious we did something about a particular problem is when the person ends up banned, since we can't really hide the fact that someone was banned.