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Kaeporo wrote on 2013-08-04 21:51
Quote from Gensokyou;1131572:
[SPOILER=" "]Disagreeing with something is now a nexon forum argument? :L
Never said that they didn't. But humans can use lances too.
9 balance from the lance + 15 balance from CM + 50 balance from dex (40 if you really want to argue not everyone will have enough dex to see it) = 64-74.
This isn't a huge vulnerability. And as I said to some guildies earlier, if it's really a big deal then just slap sight as your prefix on armor. Around 5 max damage loss at max roll and you gain your balance back, no big deal.
A) I don't see how this buffs giant melee. This isn't going to increase your melee damage.
B) Assuming you're talking in general, one keypress or extra click is a huge deal. Enough to make giant melee "significantly better". Right?
See above.
5. Heavy Armor Mastery and Shield Mastery bolster standard defense, which is generally superior to Mana Shield against the majority of enemies. Mana Shield use means that you're going to take a lot more critical damage. Heavy Armor Mastery also provides some passive defense.
Again, I don't see how this is a buff to damage. If you're talking in general, then it's a buff, but it's not holycarpwtfhuge buff. And I don't see how this doesn't apply to humans as well.
Unless shield mastery is gamebreaking. Which it isn't.
All I have to say to this is "Oh, my."
We're talking melee. If you want to talk about hybridding with dex skills, lances arn't a good option to use with puppets (IMO). It'd be better to pair lances with fighter (And before someone says heavy armor kills your damage, it's not a buff to giants compared to what we have right now.), guns, magic, etc.
I still snicker whenever this is seen as a valid argument.
I am not disagreeing with the bolded at all.
I've always been an advocate of Giant Melee. Giants are better at melee. They get more strength, they have less penalties, and can use a shield with 2hs to get extra max from oblivion alteration.
It's this i'm disagreeing with:
I'm not seeing how they get "much" better. Is this update tilted in the favour of giants melee-wise? Of course it is, and it's about time. Is it "much" better? Err, no.
lol mana shield hate
If you say this, then you can't use heavy armor as an excuse for giants being "much better".
It doesn't matter if it gives you the equivalent of a current 70% protection. It's not increasing your damage, especially if you're getting smacked around.
Mana shield hate for the sake of it, lel.
>Run out of things to say
>quickly let's resort to ad hominem
This is basically my thoughts.[/SPOILER]
This is basically you playing the devil's advocate.
If you're looking for a single notable thing which giants are going to gain from this update, you're going about it wrong. Giants pick up a ton of little benefits which other races cannot effectively utilize. This makes them overall much useful than these races at melee, which (to me) means that a melee weapon is equipped because nothing else can truly define a combat playstyle in this game.
If nothing else, they get an 828% smash at very little consequence.
Quote from SUNFLARE;1131587:
Explain?
Elves have been the worst race at range since the dynamic combat update.
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Zekkii wrote on 2013-08-04 21:54
Once again, humans only lose 5% balance from wearing heavy armor. This is easily offset by using Sight enchant, costing maybe a few points of max at best.
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Snowie Stormflower wrote on 2013-08-04 22:00
Quote from Gensokyou;1131572:
9 balance from the lance + 15 balance from CM + 50 balance from dex (40 if you really want to argue not everyone will have enough dex to see it) = 64-74.
This isn't a huge vulnerability. And as I said to some guildies earlier, if it's really a big deal then just slap sight as your prefix on armor. Around 5 max damage loss at max roll and you gain your balance back, no big deal.
Yet you won't be wearing Heavy Armor if you want to keep that balance, you'll barely have 30% base balance because of it.
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Yanm wrote on 2013-08-04 22:02
Quote from Kaeporo;1131589:
This is basically you playing the devil's advocate.
If you're looking for a single notable thing which giants are going to gain from this update, you're going about it wrong. Giants pick up a ton of little benefits which other races cannot effectively utilize. This makes them overall much useful than these races at melee, which (to me) means that a melee weapon is equipped because nothing else can truly define a combat playstyle in this game.
If nothing else, they get an 828% smash at very little consequence.
Elves have been the worst race at range since the dynamic combat update.
...What? This goes against everything I've heard, explain Kaeporo [S]And fly me to Lake Hylia while you're at it.[/S]
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Sebbies wrote on 2013-08-04 22:08
When it comes to mana shield, does everyone have an infinite supply of SE pots or something? Some easily accessible way to quickly get rid of pot poison? Potion lore? I always see tons of meleers with mana shield up tanking it out in peaca int and lords. Even stam pots throw me into pot poison fairly quickly in more urgent runs like sulfur spider and lords, so I can rarely use mana shield because of str loss and why I'm hesitant to swap out viscount with butterfly.
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Kaeporo wrote on 2013-08-04 22:08
Quote from Yanm;1131594:
...What? This goes against everything I've heard, explain Kaeporo [S]And fly me to Lake Hylia while you're at it.[/S]
I will not attempt to justify the prevailing logic seen on the Nexon forums.
Quote from Zekkii;1131590:
Once again, humans only lose 5% balance from wearing heavy armor. This is easily offset by using Sight enchant, costing maybe a few points of max at best.
The 5~10% balance loss might be offset through the Sight enchant but what about 20% chain damage off stage 3 skills, 120 ranged damage, and 60 marionette damage?
Humans severely hinder the effectiveness of several talents in order to essentially become shitty Giants. Humans can't take advantage of Heavy Armor without suffering severe consequences. They also lack 15% balance from guard cylinders and the ability to quickly throw down shock or life drain.
Once again, Giants gets a ton of little advantages while they have a melee weapon equipped.
Lance+Guard Cylinder is not unlike the Merlin Suilen Knuckles or Singing, people. Realize this.
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Snowie Stormflower wrote on 2013-08-04 22:28
Quote from Kaeporo;1131597:
Realize this.
The sad things is that a lot of people won't be able to open their eyes until it actually comes over here.
That, or some just don't want to believe that they're gonna lose to Giants.
[S]Those SE potions won't last people forever, either.[/S]
Lance + Guard Cylinder looks like a
very promising combination, but we'll have to wait and see.
Think further than just melee too, people.
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Gensokyou wrote on 2013-08-04 22:34
Quote from Snowie Stormflower;1131601:
The sad things is that a lot of people won't be able to open their eyes until it actually comes over here.
That, or some just don't want to believe that they're gonna lose to Giants.
[S]Those SE potions won't last people forever, either.[/S]
Lance + Guard Cylinder looks like a very promising combination, but we'll have to wait and see.
Think further than just melee too, people.
A) I'm just discussing melee because alchemy is a poor damage skillset, especially since to get the utility you can just use 1 extra click.
B) I don't use SE pots. Nobody got time for that.
C) I don't melee so I don't care if I lose to giants in melee. Especially when i've acknowledged giants are the best in melee.
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Snowie Stormflower wrote on 2013-08-04 22:39
Quote from Gensokyou;1131603:
A) I'm just discussing melee because alchemy is a poor damage skillset, especially since to get the utility you can just use 1 extra click.
B) I don't use SE pots. Nobody got time for that.
C) I don't melee so I don't care if I lose to giants in melee. Especially when i've acknowledged giants are the best in melee.
You will be losing at other things due to Heavy Armor Mastery, which (if you're gonna wear it) will drastically take your dexterity and reduce damage from other skillsets, as Kaeporo has pointed out.
And if you don't use Heavy armor, you'll be missing out of a ton of Defensive properties.
Humans and Elves have to make a sacrifice eventually, Giants don't.
Alchemy isn't that poor of a damage skillset, just like magic.
Overkill has no point in this game.
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Slayerj wrote on 2013-08-04 22:55
You people are trading, like Kaeporo said, around 120 range dmg, and 60 lol puppet damage. I won't even bring up the fighter bit cus that's been there from day one. :-/
You're trading that to become a god damn mobile tank that will take hits from anything like they're nothing (like you people already do with lol mana shield reforge). If you don't want to do that, don't use heavy armor/rank the skill. Enough freaking said.
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Zekkii wrote on 2013-08-04 22:59
Quote from Kaeporo;1131597:
The 5~10% balance loss might be offset through the Sight enchant but what about 20% chain damage off stage 3 skills, 120 ranged damage, and 60 marionette damage?
Humans severely hinder the effectiveness of several talents in order to essentially become shitty Giants. Humans can't take advantage of Heavy Armor without suffering severe consequences. They also lack 15% balance from guard cylinders and the ability to quickly throw down shock or life drain.
Once again, Giants gets a ton of little advantages while they have a melee weapon equipped.
Lance+Guard Cylinder is not unlike the Merlin Suilen Knuckles or Singing, people. Realize this.
I think you're reading into what I said a bit too much; I'm not saying that giants aren't better than humans, just that the dexterity penalty for humans has little effect on balance for humans (or anyone for that matter).
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ewire123 wrote on 2013-08-04 23:27
Who care if Giant are better?
We all know fashinogi > stats, which explain why Giant are the 1%. Who would change their race to Giant if given an option? Not me.
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Sebbies wrote on 2013-08-04 23:29
Quote from ewire123;1131617:
\Who would change their race to Giant if given an option?
I totally would.
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Howhurl wrote on 2013-08-04 23:35
Quote from Kaeporo;1131589:
Elves have been the worst race at range since the dynamic combat update.
wait...really?
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Azareel wrote on 2013-08-04 23:50
Quote from Snowie Stormflower;1131605:
Humans and Elves have to make a sacrifice eventually, Giants don't.
Magic, Alchemy, and Bard. None of them really get backhanded by a dex penalty. So, for some players, that "eventually" never really happens.
Other than that, you're absolutely correct and I applaud you.
Quote from Howhurl;1131620:
wait...really?
Quote from Kaeporo;1131597:
I will not attempt to justify the prevailing logic seen on the [SIZE="4"]Nexon forums[/SIZE].
Subtle hint is subtle.