[Mabinogi] Zero Professor J Vate Update (Information Consolidated and Orginized)

• Tropa wrote on 2013-09-11 03:38

  Quote from Gensokyou;1146689:

  I assume it'd be similar to physical for MOST mobs.
  
  Most interest i'm having with this is on MA finals and lords.

  
  
  Well, the monsters are always clumped up, so it shouldn't be much of a worry.
• Aubog007 wrote on 2013-09-11 03:56
  I assume max damage gets added to the end of the formula?
• Zekkii wrote on 2013-09-11 04:10

  Quote from Tropa;1146662:

  I wasn't being cereal at all, I was just humoring Zekkii, since he does seems to know-it-all.

  
  Alright smart-ass, let's establish why it sucks:
  
  1. It's pure bleed damage, so by the time it does its weight in damage the target is typically dead 14 times over
  2. To get to the highest damage you need to wait an extra 15 seconds
  3. It has a small radius and it is immobile, and it doesn't stun monsters so they can literally just walk out of the radius before it gets any real damage in
  4. It can't get critical hits
  
  HM missions? Everything is dead before it does damage. Bandit Hunting? Everything is dead before it does damage. Commerce? Once again, everything is dead before it does damage. So where can we use this? I see TWO real uses for it. Use #1, you can save maybe 30 seconds every time Enemy Behind happens to comes up as daily. Use #2, reducing protection for MA. Other than that, it is better to use other skills that just wipe the map of alive monsters. If you want to use it then go ahead, but you don't need to pretend that any alchemy skill released is magically useful just because you like alchemy. Perhaps you wouldn't have to resort to such snide remarks of you had an actual argument.
• Tropa wrote on 2013-09-11 04:16

  Quote from Zekkii;1146711:

  Alright smart-ass, let's establish why it sucks:
  
  1. It's pure bleed damage, so by the time it does its weight in damage the target is typically dead 14 times over
  2. To get to the highest damage you need to wait an extra 15 seconds
  3. It has a small radius and it is immobile, and it doesn't stun monsters so they can literally just walk out of the radius before it gets any real damage in
  4. It can't get critical hits
  
  HM missions? Everything is dead before it does damage. Bandit Hunting? Everything is dead before it does damage. Commerce? Once again, everything is dead before it does damage. So where can we use this? I see TWO real uses for it. Use #1, you can save maybe 30 seconds every time Enemy Behind happens to comes up as daily. Use #2, reducing protection for MA. Other than that, it is better to use other skills that just wipe the map of alive monsters. If you want to use it then go ahead, but you don't need to pretend that any alchemy skill released is magically useful just because you like alchemy. Perhaps you wouldn't have to resort to such snide remarks of you had an actual argument.

  
  
  ...Okay? I didn't know everyone in every party is gonna be so perfect at steamrolling everything.
  
  [SPOILER="Wow"]
  

  [Image: http://puu.sh/4ooNP.jpg]

  
  I think your gonna bust with heat![/SPOILER]
• Zekkii wrote on 2013-09-11 04:25

  Quote from Tropa;1146714:

  Okay?
  
  

  [Image: http://puu.sh/4ooNP.jpg]

  
  
  I think your gonna bust with heat!

  
  I can see you're trying provoke me. Now what does that have to do with your alchemy? And yes, I saw that edit.
  

  Quote from Zekkii;1146711:

  Perhaps you wouldn't have to resort to such snide remarks of you had an actual argument.

• Syliara wrote on 2013-09-11 04:29
  Not sure why your discrediting alchemy so much, ive seen pictures of its damage being really high up there after stat renewal... To say its crap after renewal is incorrect, is it better then end game skillsets? probably not. But it is definitely a viable dps skillset now, and if you put enough work into it you can probably push out really high numbers with most skills....
• Tropa wrote on 2013-09-11 04:33

  Quote from Pureblooded;1146721:

  Not sure why your discrediting alchemy so much, ive seen pictures of its damage being really high up there after stat renewal... To say its crap after renewal is incorrect, is it better then end game skillsets? probably not. But it is definitely a viable dps skillset now, and if you put enough work into it you can probably push out really high numbers with most skills....

  
  
  +Rep, You understand it.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2013-09-11 04:34
  Let's try a bit of compassion instead of resorting to petty ad hominem attacks.
  
  I will find a use for Hydra Transmutation and I can use every talent just as well if not better than all of you barring racial advantages. It's probably not worth investing heavily into alchemy when you're not loaded with AP and resources when you could otherwise invest in something like melee. Those who do have an abundant store of knowledge and the ability to employ it typically hold the perspective required in order to understand the full scope of something as vast as the metagame of an MMO.
  
  The alchemy renewal might not be the second coming of our lord and savior Jesus Christ but i'll be damned if it doesn't improve the shit of alchemy.
• Gensokyou wrote on 2013-09-11 04:48

  Quote from Pureblooded;1146721:

  Not sure why your discrediting alchemy so much, ive seen pictures of its damage being really high up there after stat renewal... To say its crap after renewal is incorrect, is it better then end game skillsets? probably not. But it is definitely a viable dps skillset now, and if you put enough work into it you can probably push out really high numbers with most skills....

  
  
  You seem to be mistaking high numbers with high DPS.
  
  For one thing, for it to be a "viable" DPS skillset you need to be totally endgame with enchants, reforges, and stats. This is in comparison to something such as Fighter or Firebolt spam where you set off a single-target tactical-nuke without reforges and capped stats (not to mention that enchants don't really matter to magic). If you're using Water Cannon you also NEED rain casting support for tankier mobs or else you just end up pushing them around.
  
  As I said before, I often see the 70k+ heat buster cited as a great example of "alchemy's new offense". However, it takes too long to charge up and you need to have elemental wave ready - You can't continually pump that out as opposed to something like 11k firebolts which you actually can pump out every second, if not FASTER with high int. That's without crits or combo cards. With crits it becomes crazy.
  
  As for usage of the term crap and how you represented my past statements: When using it in relation to skillsets, this is almost always a relative term. For example: If you compare a 4000 total alchemist with a 100 total melee giant, then the alchemist is going to shit all over the giant. However, if you compare an endgame alchemist with endgame in other skillsets - which is primarily what is being discussed, comparing apples and apples - then it is relatively bad.
  
  Now, that's not to say that I don't support the update. I DO support the update, i'm glad to see such features as Hydra and Elemental Wave Frozen Blast. And let's face it - Alchemy DID need an update for the longest time, being purely skill based in a metagame where stat based was becoming top tier. And now alchemists will be actually able to do Hard and Elite without being totally maxed out similar to other skillsets. But the primary usage - note primary, not only - of alchemy will remain in support with skills like shock, hydra, frozen blast, etc.
  
  

  Quote from Kaeporo;1146726:

  Let's try a bit of compassion instead of resorting to petty ad hominem attacks.

  
  
  I don't know if this is aimed at me but i've been trying to focus solely on the numbers and the skills here.
  
  

  I will find a use for Hydra Transmutation

  
  
  As will I.
  
  

  and I can use every talent just as well if not better than all of you barring racial advantages.

  
  
  In the context of this discussion, this means nothing.
  
  

  It's probably not worth investing heavily into alchemy when you're not loaded with AP and resources when you could otherwise invest in something like melee.
  

  
  
  I agree and would not recommend a more casual player to do so. However, I would definitely recommend anyone who plans to be playing for a long time to invest into alchemy.
  
  

  The alchemy renewal might not be the second coming of our lord and savior Jesus Christ but i'll be damned if it doesn't improve the shit of alchemy.

  
  
  It will improve it but offensively, it won't put its DPSing capabilities on the level of other skillsets.
  
  Now, just for the record - I might not be the biggest fan of alchemy because I personally prefer to DPS and do things which can help my DPS, but there is definitely always a place in my party for a good supportive alchemist that can help the party's speed with their skills. And I personally will be looking into Hydra depending on how it goes. But I don't think that Alchemy's offence should be misconstrued as top-tier after the update because this can reflect negatively on new players - who deserve a fair shot at all the facts.
• wildk wrote on 2013-09-11 04:50
  Could always pop a hydra at dragon raids. Can't OHKO that, can you Zekkii? >:D
• Syliara wrote on 2013-09-11 04:55

  Quote from Gensokyou;1146736:

  You seem to be mistaking high numbers with high DPS.
  
  For one thing, for it to be a "viable" DPS skillset you need to be totally endgame with enchants, reforges, and stats. This is in comparison to something such as Fighter or Firebolt spam where you set off a single-target tactical-nuke without reforges and capped stats (not to mention that enchants don't really matter to magic). If you're using Water Cannon you also NEED rain casting support for tankier mobs or else you just end up pushing them around.
  
  As I said before, I often see the 70k+ heat buster cited as a great example of "alchemy's new offense". However, it takes too long to charge up and you need to have elemental wave ready - You can't continually pump that out as opposed to something like 11k firebolts which you actually can pump out every second, if not FASTER with high int. That's without crits or combo cards. With crits it becomes crazy.
  
  As for usage of the term crap and how you represented my past statements: When using it in relation to skillsets, this is almost always a relative term. For example: If you compare a 4000 total alchemist with a 100 total melee giant, then the alchemist is going to shit all over the giant. However, if you compare an endgame alchemist with endgame in other skillsets - which is primarily what is being discussed, comparing apples and apples - then it is relatively bad.
  
  Now, that's not to say that I don't support the update. I DO support the update, i'm glad to see such features as Hydra and Elemental Wave Frozen Blast. And let's face it - Alchemy DID need an update for the longest time, being purely skill based in a metagame where stat based was becoming top tier. And now alchemists will be actually able to do Hard and Elite without being totally maxed out similar to other skillsets. But the primary usage - note primary, not only - of alchemy will remain in support with skills like shock, hydra, frozen blast, etc.
  
  
  
  I don't know if this is aimed at me but i've been trying to focus solely on the numbers and the skills here.
  
  
  
  As will I.
  
  
  
  In the context of this discussion, this means nothing.
  
  
  
  I agree and would not recommend a more casual player to do so. However, I would definitely recommend anyone who plans to be playing for a long time to invest into alchemy.
  
  
  
  It will improve it but offensively, it won't put its DPSing capabilities on the level of other skillsets.
  
  Now, just for the record - I might not be the biggest fan of alchemy because I personally prefer to DPS and do things which can help my DPS, but there is definitely always a place in my party for a good supportive alchemist that can help the party's speed with their skills. And I personally will be looking into Hydra depending on how it goes. But I don't think that Alchemy's offence should be misconstrued as top-tier after the update because this can reflect negatively on new players - who deserve a fair shot at all the facts.

  
  
  Honestly my post was directed at zekkii, however I'm willing to discuss with you too.
  
  I've seen a post of a 50k wc crit on a golem and it didnt even look like there was raincast.... To me that seems pretty viable for an end game skillset for dmg... Tropa's projected fully buffed wc dmg is like 70k or so, however thats an estimation, but that seems pretty dam high.... Just because a skillset cant push out tons of end game numbers doesnt mean its not a viable end game skillset.... 50k wc crit easily qualifies to take on end game content, I mean wats the point in hitting pretty numbers if they die with half the dealt dmg anyways? I just saw a video of a group of alchs taking on npc with tower cylinder flame burst and they did it really fast.... Almost instant 50k wc without raincasting buff is good enough for me to consider it viable end game dps, would you not?
  
  Simply put, alchemy after stat renewal will be able to take on any content that other skillsets can take on, it doesnt matter if they can hit over 100k or not as long as the mobs die....
• Zekkii wrote on 2013-09-11 04:57

  Quote from Pureblooded;1146721:

  Not sure why your discrediting alchemy so much, ive seen pictures of its damage being really high up there after stat renewal... To say its crap after renewal is incorrect, is it better then end game skillsets? probably not. But it is definitely a viable dps skillset now, and if you put enough work into it you can probably push out really high numbers with most skills....

  
  I'm guessing you're referring to me. I have talked about one, and only one skill in this thread: hydra transmutation. Although I did call it crap, I established it does have a couple uses. The point being that it shouldn't be hyped up to be an amazing DPS skill. I do however, think that alchemy will still be subpar post-update, but that has nothing to do with what I said.
  

  Quote from wildk;1146738:

  Could always pop a hydra at dragon raids. Can't OHKO that, can you Zekkii? >:D

  
  The dragons move, so I wouldn't see it being particularly useful.
• KomeijiSatori wrote on 2013-09-11 05:00

  Quote from Zekkii;1146743:

  The dragons move, so I wouldn't see it being particularly useful.

  
  
  Prairie and Desert Dragons move the most. Black and White Dragons tend to just stand in place most of the time. Red is weird.
• Gensokyou wrote on 2013-09-11 05:01

  Quote from Pureblooded;1146741:

  Honestly my post was directed at zekkii, however I'm willing to discuss with you too.
  
  stuff

  
  
  Right, I somehow thought it would have been directed at my statements about it being crap earlier on.
  
  I don't really want to start a big fight about it because it's something that can stir up a lot of opinions and emotions, so if you'd like to discuss it more then pm me?
  
  None of it takes away from the fact that i'm getting pretty excited for the hydra now.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2013-09-11 05:03

  Quote from Gensokyou;1146736:

  In the context of this discussion, this means nothing.

  
  
  It does matter because I have extensive personal experience with all of these talents at all levels of play.
  
  You do not as evidenced by your apparent inability to realize the usefulness of Support Shot among other things. This is likely due to the fact that you lack the character stats suggested or the connection required to actually use some of these tactics.
  
  That's not to say that I have nothing to learn from you or others. What it does mean is that if i'm making a statement, it's backed by the FDIC of Mabinogi.
  
  ...and my earlier comments were most certainly directed at other members.