[Discussion - Game Balance] Current skills that needs tweaking?

• Kyubey wrote on 2014-02-08 17:57

  Quote from nana;1196104:

  Kyubey, don't rush into conclusion and say one is wrong just because you THINK you know the stuff(in reality, it wasn't the truth tho).
  If you weren't too sure what one is saying/providing, you can always ask for more info first. This is what you should have done first.
  [S]Good thing you've done it on here instead of doing it on rl first lol.[/S]

  
  
  What?...
  
  

  While I do not know the REAL formula

  
  
  This is the main flaw on mabi calculations, and why i rather go to the field, spam and register the numbers for a more accurate experiment.
  This with 816.6 puppet max if you want to make the math
  
  [SPOILER="crap"]
  ------ 0 accessories (+0% crisis damage)
  1306
  1406
  1358
  1250
  1602
  1348
  1600
  1272
  1486
  1626 max
  1226
  1510
  1516
  1194
  1310
  ----- 1 acc 5%
  1508
  1666
  1301
  1666 max
  1309
  1498
  1590
  1648
  1666 max
  1529
  1326
  1365
  1666 max
  1666 max
  1666 max
  ----- 2 acc 10%
  1581
  1707 max
  1707 max
  1190
  1583
  1199
  1455
  1419
  1310
  1707 max
  1497
  1274
  1579
  1394
  1707 max[/SPOILER]
  
  As for conclusion i guess something does stack in there (at least for crisis), however the values are off as even considering the 80% balance having 2 accessories does not add up 10% damage as mentioned on the wiki.
• nana wrote on 2014-02-08 21:24

  Quote from Kyubey;1196125:

  What?...
  
  
  
  This is the main flaw on mabi calculations, and why i rather go to the field, spam and register the numbers for a more accurate experiment.
  This with 816.6 puppet max if you want to make the math
  
  [SPOILER="crap"]
  ------ 0 accessories (+0% crisis damage)
  1306
  1406
  1358
  1250
  1602
  1348
  1600
  1272
  1486
  1626 max
  1226
  1510
  1516
  1194
  1310
  ----- 1 acc 5%
  1508
  1666
  1301
  1666 max
  1309
  1498
  1590
  1648
  1666 max
  1529
  1326
  1365
  1666 max
  1666 max
  1666 max
  ----- 2 acc 10%
  1581
  1707 max
  1707 max
  1190
  1583
  1199
  1455
  1419
  1310
  1707 max
  1497
  1274
  1579
  1394
  1707 max[/SPOILER]
  
  As for conclusion i guess something does stack in there (at least for crisis), however the values are off as even considering the 80% balance having 2 accessories does not add up 10% damage as mentioned on the wiki.

  
  
  I don't even know what you attacked..
  but from that data, i can see that your damage is reduced by a 0.5% from your possible max.
  1626(your recorded data)/1634(possible max damage)=0.99510403916768665850673194614443, approximately 0.005 or 0.5% of difference/reduction
  
  your possible max
  R1 crisis : 1634
  w/ 1 acc : 1675
  w/ 2 acc :1716
  
  Assuming you attack same monster with same set up(besides the acc), just reduce these possible max damages by 0.5%.If they match the number you have recorded, its clear that reforges did add up 5/10%(depending on case)
  
  case1)1634-(1634*0.5%) = 1625.8825
  case2)1675-(1675*0.5%) = 1666.625
  case3)1716-(1716*0.5%) = 1707.42
  and so...Reforges did add up to 10% or 5%(for case2) when equipped.
  
  sorry i derail this thread too much, should've created a separate thread just for this topic or sth...>.>
• Kyubey wrote on 2014-02-08 21:46

  Quote from nana;1196164:

  I don't even know what you attacked..
  

  
  
  Ah yes forgot to mention. Same mongooses ofc, have to keep the tests with the same variables.
• SlurpTASTY wrote on 2014-02-08 22:15
  So accessory reforges do actually stack? Is there any tests with crash shot frag dmg or magnum shot (in kr or otherwise) to know if those stack as well? Curious about this topic, I think it would be nice if you made a new thread discussing if reforge multipliers stack.
• ironwoman wrote on 2014-02-09 06:44

  Quote from SlurpTASTY;1196186:

  So accessory reforges do actually stack? Is there any tests with crash shot frag dmg or magnum shot (in kr or otherwise) to know if those stack as well? Curious about this topic, I think it would be nice if you made a new thread discussing if reforge multipliers stack.

  
  
  If that is the case, then Elves have even more reforging advantage, making the magnum digit go even higher, as if it didn't already.
• SlurpTASTY wrote on 2014-02-09 07:06

  Quote from ironwoman;1196340:

  If that is the case, then Elves have even more reforging advantage, making the magnum digit go even higher, as if it didn't already.

  
  
  I'm more curious in the crash shot frag damage actually, magnum is great and all but another potential 21% increase in crash shot (almost a 10% increase overall) would be awesome.
• Zekkii wrote on 2014-02-09 08:00

  Quote from SlurpTASTY;1196345:

  I'm more curious in the crash shot frag damage actually, magnum is great and all but another potential 21% increase in crash shot (almost a 10% increase overall) would be awesome.

  
  I wouldn't get too swagged up unless you're ready to drop 40m like its hot, as well as dosh out in repair protection.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2014-02-10 19:29
  Wine Making. It does nothing but give stats.
• ironwoman wrote on 2014-02-10 20:35

  Quote from Darkboy132;1196826:

  Wine Making. It does nothing but give stats.

  
  
  That goes for many of the other skills. The stat itself makes it kind of worth.
• Proxied wrote on 2014-02-10 21:28

  Quote from nana;1195782:

  reforges do stack.

  
  
  It is a bold statement to say that all reforges stack, or all reforges do not stack. While I'm not entirely sure of some reforges, there are definitely plenty that do NOT stack. I've received compensation for this issue, and I'll post a portion of my ticket I sent in for proof.
  

  
  I will attach some proof that these do not stack.
  
  http://i.imgur.com/AJhJ3lv.jpg
  
  In the first picture, you can see that I have shoes with "10 max ranged attack level", which grants 10 max damage. This makes my max range 360.
  
  In the second picture, I equip my oblivion lily accessory with the reforge that is giving me an issue.
  http://i.imgur.com/9lKX5gO.jpg
  
  You can tell they don't stack because
  Oblivion gives 10 max damage
  lily gives 6 max damage (15 dex at 2.5 dex per max attack = 6)
  and it stops there.
  
  it SHOULD be 379 instead of 376. Therefore, they don't stack.
  

  
  
  I also recorded tons of magnum shots with and without reforge using a control accessory with the same enchants and the max were literally the same, but that's not tangible evidence and could easily be made up by anyone.
  
  As far as reforges like max attack power go, these work and stack because they compound the stat to the item directly. In other words, if you get a max damage reforge on your accessory, it will say your accessory has max damage on it.
  
  The ranged attack reforge modifier adds +stats, not %. So It's hard to say what does and doesn't truly stack.
• nana wrote on 2014-02-11 11:54

  Quote from Proxied;1196876:

  It is a bold statement to say that all reforges stack, or all reforges do not stack. While I'm not entirely sure of some reforges, there are definitely plenty that do NOT stack. I've received compensation for this issue, and I'll post a portion of my ticket I sent in for proof.
  
  

  
  I do agree that there was a period when reforge didn't stack by an accident. it was a bug and therefore you got compensated for their mistake. However the problem should be fixed by now.
  
  That's why on Kenero's Thread, I posted looooong wall of texts to
  [S]1)deny what Nui pointed out [/S]
  1)prove that bug did exist previously.
  2)prove that bug is already fixed even on NA server.(including one like mag damage, tho i didn't test much at that time)
  
  However, ppl argue that overture reforge is additive and does not effect skill in a %way, so comparing those two(additive vs %to multiplier?) are meaningless.
  To answer this, I even reforged so many accs and shown pictures with stat to further prove that even a reforge that effects skill in %way does stack as of now.
  
  
  
  
  
  

  Quote from Proxied;1196876:

  
  
  I also recorded tons of magnum shots with and without reforge using a control accessory with the same enchants and the max were literally the same, but that's not tangible evidence and could easily be made up by anyone.
  
  As far as reforges like max attack power go, these work and stack because they compound the stat to the item directly. In other words, if you get a max damage reforge on your accessory, it will say your accessory has max damage on it.
  
  The ranged attack reforge modifier adds +stats, not %. So It's hard to say what does and doesn't truly stack.

  
  i would like to know when you've done this testing...
  if you've done it after reading this thread and results were exactly that of your post, it might be worth putting screenshots of your damage, gear, stat, and etc...
  But if this was done long time ago...Many things change fast on MMORPG...very fast...
  
  
  
  also, by your logic, following should not work as they add +stats,,,(tho i thought this was additive stuff..>.>)
  [SPOILER="pictures"]
  

  [Image: http://i.imgur.com/sJFyFDy.jpg]

  
  

  [Image: http://i.imgur.com/aS34r1H.jpg]

  
  [/SPOILER]
  but i still get 2more dex from Reforge on a Ring i equipped.
  
  
  Lastly, ill quote what k1nsoo said on kenero's thread
  
  

  Quote from k1nsoo;1192549:

  I think Proxied was talking about skill-based accessory reforges that are supposed to be stack (ea. lance charge/magnum/crashshot dmg). So the accessory reforges that were supposed to be stack are not working right now in NA and this is surely a bug -- which took about 5 months for KR Mabi to fix.
  
  Now in the KR mabi these accessory reforges work as they were intended to be, but looks like we have to wait for Treasure Hunter patch to actually fix those here.
  

  
  Clearly stated that kr mabi already fixed this reforge issue.
  While he said we should wait until Treasure Hunter, JP mabi, which is still in Master Chef update, got this reforge issue solved already.
  Those fix update usually comes very fast on oversea servers, not to mention overture reforge fix and crisis magnification/DEX reforge been stacking already...
  
  Also pointing out how fast following two got fixed/changed...Lanceswap and Space-key for pet-desummon....orz
  
  edit:as for bold-statement, I should've re-phrased it to something different. Because who knows, there might be a reforge that never stacked when reforge system was first introduced. -x-
  What I meant by ALL REFORGES was... reforges that were effected by nexon's mistake and stopped stacking properly.
  so..it'd be like...
  Whatever reforges that used to stack stack properly now.
• Proxied wrote on 2014-02-11 13:09

  Quote from nana;1197133:

  
  i would like to know when you've done this testing...
  if you've done it after reading this thread and results were exactly that of your post, it might be worth putting screenshots of your damage, gear, stat, and etc...
  But if this was done long time ago...Many things change fast on MMORPG...very fast...
  
  
  
  also, by your logic, following should not work as they add +stats,,,(tho i thought this was additive stuff..>.>)
  [SPOILER="pictures"]
  

  [Image: http://i.imgur.com/sJFyFDy.jpg]

  
  

  [Image: http://i.imgur.com/aS34r1H.jpg]

  
  [/SPOILER]
  but i still get 2more dex from Reforge on a Ring i equipped.
  
  

  
  
  Testing was done when I was writing the ticket, so a while ago. As far as recent testing goes, unless someone wants to hand over a mag accessory or reforges (hint hint, if someone has access to a bunch of cheapo accessories in alexina and would like to store reforge them in hopes of getting mag level 1 it'd be pretty awesome) enough to reroll my current accessories, I can't help in that manner.
  
  I don't want to sound rude, but you already seemed to have attempted to do so by using the following your logic statement, but my reasoning for max attack power working alongside other max attack reforges was not meant to apply to every other reforge. Just the one I mentioned.
  
  It's unfortunate that they don't tell players when they fix a bug (apparently) if it's even fixed for everything. Sorry but I'm not willing to shell out the money to roll over the good reforges I have on my accessories now without proof for the skill I wanted to get a reforge for in general.
  
  For the dexterity (and all actual stat reforges in general), since it applies to the "all" category of reforges, instead of just 2, such as magnum shot only being on accessories and gloves, I would assume that such a stat would indeed be able to stack on everything from the start and was never subjected to this bug.
• Kouki wrote on 2014-02-11 14:28

  Quote from SlurpTASTY;1194379:

  
  -counterattack uses bow damage instead of barehand.

  
  
  This, but for windmill as well. It would help solve multi-aggro problems by a lot since crash shot's got that nasty cool-down.
  
  Actually, ranged attack in general should be re-done so it has 100% accuracy just like every other talent's skills, and if that's too OP, then I guess maybe nerf some things? As long as crash shot gets fixed to be on par to windmill's cool-down, I wouldn't mind.
  I honestly wouldn't mind sacrificing damage for guaranteed hits. I don't know, I just HATE the gambling system with bows where missing means death... :(
  
  

  Quote from Darkboy132;1194592:

  
  Transformation Mastery
  -Needs to let us use Icebolt, Firebolt, and Lightning Bolt.
  

  
  
  I agree with this. Since it's not explicitly a melee talent skill, it should benefit more than just melee characters. If bow-wielding monsters could use ranged skills, and the corrupt alchemist could use alchemy skills, that'd be cool too.
• ironwoman wrote on 2014-02-11 18:32

  Quote from Fran;1197155:

  This, but for windmill as well. It would help solve multi-aggro problems by a lot since crash shot's got that nasty cool-down.
  
  Actually, ranged attack in general should be re-done so it has 100% accuracy just like every other talent's skills, and if that's too OP, then I guess maybe nerf some things? As long as crash shot gets fixed to be on par to windmill's cool-down, I wouldn't mind.
  I honestly wouldn't mind sacrificing damage for guaranteed hits. I don't know, I just HATE the gambling system with bows where missing means death... :(
  

  
  
  I have some problems with things you say here.
  You do realize they actually used bow damage for windmill long time ago? You know why it was patched? Because archers could just windmill their way through without ranking melee skills at all. Think about it, if you could clear a room with bows just as fast as other melee weapons, and still have the ability to change to ranged skills right after, doesn't that seem a little op? While windmill was using bow damage, some Elves could just solo dungeons just by bow milling. In today's situation, where you can get shit tons of dex, this would make melee weapons besides lances pointless, and even lances could lose out due to the sheer differences of dex and str cap. There was a good reason why devCat decided to nerf bowmill a long time ago. So no, windmill or counter with bow damage will not work, it'll make range too op, as if it wasn't powerful already.
  
  The reason range can miss is because it has higher damage potential. Even for human magnums, you can fire like 3 magnums while you use smash. As for crash shot, you have much higher damage potential than windmill, hence slightly longer cool down. And if it means your death when you miss, and therefore you "gamble", there's something wrong there. I don't die when I miss, I just load counter or windmill. I don't really see a problem with missing.
• Perfectio wrote on 2014-02-11 22:36
  i love how the most dominant talent in the history of the game asks for buffs
  
  yet when magic which has been trash tier for most of the game's existence gets buffed to be sort of on par then everyone SCREAMS for nerfs