Zekkii's Guide to Creating Challenging Content in Mabinogi

• Slayerj wrote on 2014-04-08 22:20

  Quote from Zekkii;1213606:

  Buffing monsters is an effectual way to balance out reforges. As much as we can get some crazy buff that would make us surpass this content, there is nothing in the future that indicates we will. If Nexon so chooses to unlock reforges to 100 levels or add 20 lines and elemental availability to each weapon, then it's pretty obvious that they screwed up. It's taken years of mindless player buffing and content/mob neglect to get to this point, and it's high time mobs got the same treatment. It's rather obvious that no one has faith in devCATs balancing, which is rather justified, however this is not an excuse to forgo it entirely.
  
  I know people are just waiting for me to say something crazy like "REMOVE ALL THE REFORGES!", but that would be an effectual way to kill the game off at this point. Not only is it their main stream of revenue, but players who have invested immense time and/or money into reforges deserve to keep them.

  
  
  But it doesn't solve the problem completely. It still leaves room for the possibility of us being able to get stronger still. Then they have to spend time buffing stuff again.
• Zekkii wrote on 2014-04-08 22:49

  Quote from Slayerj;1213644:

  But it doesn't solve the problem completely. It still leaves room for the possibility of us being able to get stronger still. Then they have to spend time buffing stuff again.

  
  Once again, that has nothing to do with the mobs that are being combated. Mob and player balance should be conducted separately but based off each other. "Don't buff mobs because we might get buffed" isn't a logical argument in my eyes. Player buffs don't just randomly happen you know, devCAT develops and implements them.
• Kingofrunes wrote on 2014-04-08 22:51
  Another solution is just forcing you into RP mode :D
  
  At least that's what devcat has been doing lately to create artificial difficulty levels in saga missions for season 2
• tachiorz wrote on 2014-04-08 23:29

  Quote from Kingofrunes;1213652:

  Another solution is just forcing you into RP mode :D
  
  At least that's what devcat has been doing lately to create artificial difficulty levels in saga missions for season 2

  
  
  So season 2 will be more engaging? Because I felt that 1st season scaled really badly. I was lazy to wear any gear and it was still a poop :(
• Zekkii wrote on 2014-04-08 23:56
  I can't imagine saga would be challenging, or pretty much an generation at this point. After the first run of it, it just turns into spamming the easiest mission every single day. The most ironic part is that it's the final one.
• Kingofrunes wrote on 2014-04-08 23:58

  Quote from Zekkii;1213665:

  I can't imagine saga would be challenging, or pretty much an generation at this point. After the first run of it, it just turns into spamming the easiest mission every single day. The most ironic part is that it's the final one.

  
  
  Hard to do that when the system rewards is 20AP the first run, and then just a bunch of gold and exp as the rewards for repeat which granted isn't too terribly bad.
  
  Basically, do it the first time for the story and the AP and never do it again. Sadly :(
  
  Unless you find some of the missions quite fun which granted there are some fun missions I wouldn't mind repeating several times
• Perfectio wrote on 2014-04-09 01:49
  The fundamental issue with PLAYER power is that certain skillsets has a skewed risk/reward ratio, and a skewed time/reward ratio and a skewed ease of use/reward ratio. However players refuse to accept this because they feel like they are entitled to the mabi equivalent of freeelo. For example, Puppets have a simple combo that does more damage than most single target combos (and nearly all AOE combos) yet wipes a mob while providing massive crowd control. Lances pump out massive amounts of DPS purely through big numbers and spammable instacast/low CD moves. Gunner requires a lot of effort to get there but 10k instanukes every 5 seconds really isn't balanced, and WOTG kills bosses better than anything in the game.
  
  And then we have Fighter. Pure single target burst damage that levels off hard because there's not much Will in the game compared to STR and Dex, and easily interrupted combos that leave the user largely vulnerable.
  
  And then we have Alchemy. Loaded with utility, yes, but their damage is an AOE cone that's easily interrupted, an AOE DOT that needs very high stats to do a lot of damage, and a single target nuke that goes off only once per 10 seconds. Also they have a 10k nuke that makes a big explosion and does 10k no matter how much you invest.
  
  And then we have Magic, which has a single target spell that can match up DPS with all but the strongest in other skillsets (and caps off at 30-35k), albeit costing more in resources and maintainance, and a lot of slow charging nukes (one of which that requires a Puppet skill to even be useable in many situations) that leave the user vulnerable for several seconds except when the mage uses an instacast skill that has a 2 minute cooldown (reduced by using single target spells).
  
  The issue isn't so much damage as much as ease of use in relation to damage. Puppet/Gunner/Melee/Ranged to an extent get way too much damage for how easy and risk free it is to do damage with the skillsets. Even if you buff monsters, at some point you have to slow down the infinite scaling that characters have, and those 4 skillsets tend to be the worst offenders (Fighter has some of the same issues but the pure single target focus holds it back no matter what, as does the limited amount of natural Will from skills)
  
  I definitely agree that we need better content, but it's really only certain talents that scale really hard that are causing the problem. If we drastically nerfed the instaload skills damagewise then you'd have to choose between speed and power when planning your character build and party composition, not have both.
• Tropa wrote on 2014-04-09 02:21
  My Little "Challenging Content Update"
  
  Crisis
  Will fail to pull in mobs that Ping to Melee(All levels), the monster's that ping will aggro the marionette.
  
  Rain Casting
  No longer glitches mob AI
  
  Lullaby
  Can only be used with an Instrument
  Cooldown increased to 30sec
  
  Battle field Overture
  Decreases Defensive stats without the use of an instrument(user)
  
  Enduring Melony
  Decreases Max and Min Damage without the use of an instrument(User)
• December wrote on 2014-04-09 05:59
  I feel the issue lies in finding the perfect balance of beefiness and mob AI.
  
  Multiaggro is one way devCat has tried to deal with scaling difficulty, but all that encourages is AoE powercreep, where players will simply focus on their AOE skills to clear waves as they come. If you increase the HP/Def/Prot of these mobs to the point where AoE fails to clear instantly, players can only really [1] get more damage [2] rely on AoE Pets to stun. You can't do anything with two shadow lancers, multiple archers and a warrior (all with too much hp) bashing your face in. There is very little opportunity for players to develop strategies beyond AoE damage and stun.
  
  I do agree with your point in mixing in rooms with a single strong target (perhaps 1 for every player in the room) or multiple weaker targets
• ironwoman wrote on 2014-04-09 22:52
  I wanna see mobs using charge already, partially so that mastering charge is actually possible.
• Cyrene wrote on 2014-04-10 01:20

  Quote from Zekkii;1213665:

  I can't imagine saga would be challenging, or pretty much an generation at this point. After the first run of it, it just turns into spamming the easiest mission every single day. The most ironic part is that it's the final one.

  
  
  The final saga storyline or the fina mabinogi storyline update?
• ironwoman wrote on 2014-04-10 02:43

  Quote from Crye;1213933:

  The final saga storyline or the fina mabinogi storyline update?

  
  
  The storyline.
  
  And to be fair, all generations are really easy at the moment.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2014-04-10 17:10

  Quote from ironwoman;1213951:

  And to be fair, all generations are really easy at the moment.

  
  
  I'd like to see a newb solo G2 without any outside advice.
  
  Anyway, GIVE MOBS REFORGES! That should "balance things out", yeah?
• ironwoman wrote on 2014-04-10 18:15

  Quote from Darkboy132;1214105:

  I'd like to see a newb solo G2 without any outside advice.
  
  Anyway, GIVE MOBS REFORGES! That should "balance things out", yeah?

  
  
  I soloed whole G2 when I was total 30. If you want to know how newby I was, I didn't even know the importance of windmill, only reason I ranked it was because I "liked" it.
  
  To say the least, still very easy generation to do. Not to mention I still soloed G3.
• Zekkii wrote on 2014-04-10 21:10

  Quote from Crye;1213933:

  The final saga storyline or the fina mabinogi storyline update?

  
  I meant Episode 10 of the first saga, it is shorter and easier than the other 9 episodes.