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Aubog007 wrote on 2014-04-27 04:57
Quote from Zekkii;1217290:
There's nothing to stop a player from using 20 or more pets, which would result in indefinite stun. Also consider how almost no one uses counter or defense now, why bother where you can have a pet AOE stun every enemy on the screen and load skills with your character at the same time.
Pay2Win.
Once you introduce it, it's hard to get rid of it without the customers rightfully bitching.
If you abolished AOE pets and reforges, you would end up killing the game.
The only solution is this guide you have handily made.
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Zekkii wrote on 2014-04-27 07:42
Quote from Aubog007;1217295:
Pay2Win.
Once you introduce it, it's hard to get rid of it without the customers rightfully bitching.
If you abolished AOE pets and reforges, you would end up killing the game.
The only solution is this guide you have handily made.
Players are always a thorn in the side of balancing. We're not going to get truly hard content without making the game harder; sadly this means we're most likely going to be screwed or severely limited since Nexon doesn't want to cause an uproar.
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Reyaxris wrote on 2014-04-27 10:28
I don't really get it. It feels like every game forum that I visit have threads concerning X = OP Y = NOT DIFFICULT.
Isn't the point of games like this is to grow powerful enough that everything becomes trivialized? Whether or not Pay2Win by pet/reforge/RB is involved, players eventually get to that point. Those who do submit themselves to that makes it easier for them to see the end result, which is making content very easy.
I cannot understand where the need for balance is coming from when you're already dealing with a game that has core aspect of turning your character into the dev-tool delete kit.
If players wanted to truly have a semblance of difficulty and balance in this game then
1) They, the players can nerf themselves. But not so many are willing because they already spent time and effort on w/e their account has.
2) Hindsight: They (Devkitty) should have imposed a limit on character growth, pets, reforges and the number of skills you can use. But Mabi is built around the absence or rather the low lack of those things.
OR
It could be like what the Cat posted but that is really just wishful thinking because until Devkitty does something about Mabi's Core gameplay suggestions are useless and hoping for better and rewarding content will not provide any progress in terms of them actually doing something about this mess of a game.
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Which brings me back to what I'm trying to express. I do not get why people who play this game want to get back Difficulty, akin to the old days, where stuff was "challenging" (which is still layered with artificial difficulty.) My point is that the problem is so deep rooted with player progression, everything else just adds onto it.
Hence why I don't have a problem with this lax and ez-modo nature of Mabi, because I'm at a point where I've progressed enough like the majority of you that merely looking at stuff causes it to blow up, but in the end it was player progression that made it possible anyway... And that brings perplexity for me because so many players who are high totals or have insane gear complain about the game being too easy/lacks so and so when the fun you could squeeze out of the game was the challenge of getting to that over-powered state.
It just... boggles me.
TL;DR - Players complain about balance, makes no sense to me since this game designed to make characters unbalanced hence breaking game difficulty. Players are unwilling to nerf themselves to cater to the artificial difficulty cause by game design.
Just my thoughts Cat. That's all.
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Zekkii wrote on 2014-04-27 11:05
Yes, players do level and get stronger to make content easier. That's not an excuse to make the game too easy, in fact it's more of an argument for difficult. Why would I want to get stronger if I can already solo elite missions at level 1000? Well I'm finding it harder and harder to care, maybe I should have just quit 10,000 levels ago? The point being that progress loses all meaning when it doesn't enable you to do try new things, overcome challenges, and just have fun with the game. If players handicap themselves, there's no point in progressing and thus it again loses a sense of progression. Progression is also much more compared to other players, rather than mobs or content. Am I supposed to quit because I can/have done everything in game?
Also you can't blame these constant buffs on character progression, rather faulty design choices. A player in G1 could only get so strong, even after playing to their maximum potential they would be a fraction of the strength of a player today. These buffs are generally just handed to us rather than earned, either that or bought. To be clear, maybe a bit redundant, this is not an issue with character progression; this is an issue with balancing of character progression. Look at Dark Souls, a game very popular largely because of its difficulty. Players progress and carefully allocate their souls/exp to stats so they can overcome tougher monsters, try new builds, and just become stronger in general. Now if the developers decides to patch it so that characters had 100x the health and 100x the damage, wouldn't the advancement lose most of its meaning? I say yes, and it has.
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Perfectio wrote on 2014-04-27 13:03
Quote from Zekkii;1217290:
There's nothing to stop a player from using 20 or more pets, which would result in indefinite stun. Also consider how almost no one uses counter or defense now, why bother where you can have a pet AOE stun every enemy on the screen and load skills with your character at the same time.
I feel this is largely theoretical however, especially since only a few AOE pets give the kind of stun needed to easily enable combos (Scooter/Bone Dragon/Ice Dragon/Nimbus). However, I think that you can simply make it so you can't apply the same pet AOE effect to the same enemy more than once while it's alive.
I think that would effectively solve the pet portion of the issue.
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Slayerj wrote on 2014-04-27 15:37
It's not so much the game is too easy, it's just that you guys have hit the wall. You've become too powerful. NONE of my three characters can just roflstomp hard mode missions. I can hardly solo, I use defense and counter, and I have maybe 1 AoE pet that I use to heal my sp/mp/hp during a room/in between rooms if I feel like I've had too many pots/forgot to bring some/don't want to dip into my MP stock just for this mission.
I have a very hard time Soloing hard mode missions. Let alone anything higher than that. (I actually hate soloing. I'm playing an MMORPG. I want to play my MASSIVELY MULTIPLIER ONLINE GAME with other people. If I wanted to play a solo game, I'd go play a offline single player only game.) My want for 'harder difficulty' actually comes for my desire for something new. I've done just about everything in this game once or twice with friends. It's boring now.
Run a dungeon? Meh rewards for a lot of time for the same shit over and over again.
Run a mission? Done them all like...999999999999+ times.
Dragon raid? Why? Hardly enough people when I do go to even get it's health down a bit.
Kill stuff on the field-pfff ahahaha...oh god...oh god I couldn't say that. No one does that. That's so worthless.
Field bosses? Eh sometimes. I'll stick to doing 2-3 dailies a to get to level 11+ expl from 1 and then slowly go from there.
Train Skills? Saving up AP still and trying to still unlock my fucking Golden Time. (Fuck you Devcat. Just fuck you.) / Everything is so boring to run to train stuff.
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Cyrene wrote on 2014-04-27 18:39
Quote from Slayerj;1217336:
Words
Then there should be content tailored to people who have hit the wall in the amount of damage you can obtain. Even if you find hardmode missions still challenging that stuff will just stagnate because that's all we have for rewarding content. Shadow missions have not changed in years and all people do is their daily and a couple of missions after and your good. There's like no reason to do anything else in mabi. Dungeons are horrible and stale. They won't even add to the old AI to make them faster. Overworld monsters need a buff and then shadowmissions and dungeon monsters need a buff. Whats the point of giving us things like catering that gives us 300 dex for example or talents if you aren't making content to counter that. Its just cheap filling to keep us playing and paying. It was even worse when they gave us that huge buff in defense. What was the point. It just made the game easier as a whole.
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Zekkii wrote on 2014-04-27 20:19
Again, character progression is just the scapegoat here. If you're having trouble soloing HM missions then it's probably because you were never intended to solo them. We have Basic, Intermediate, Advanced, and Elite; missions allow you to bring up to 8 people because you're supposed to run them with 8 people. Maybe if no one or barely anyone could solo these missions, then people would be doing them together more often.
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Reyaxris wrote on 2014-04-27 21:42
Quote from Zekkii;1217330:
-snip-
You are right that it is faulty design choice but part of that design is player progression. We can go on and talk about how other aspects of the game trivializes difficulty but we already know that talking does not do anything. In the end of the day, we're still subject to the Devs and their ideas of "fun". Mind you this is worse because we naturally do not have the capacity to suggest ideas to KR but rather go along with their flow of updates.
Quote from Slayerj;1217336:
-snip-
You are correct. A large portion of players that I've come to know and play with since the game started have hit that wall. Others who haven't are nearly there. But it still remains, once you click into that seat, you start to wonder why everything became so easy.
I also want something "new" and "difficult". I am not excused from the sentiments that players hold, however what I don't get is the persistence that players have in insisting in complaining/demanding for such content. I've given up wanting difficult stuff long ago when it had become obvious that "challenging" content was not rewarding compared to simply spamming something like... Conflict which only takes 40 or less seconds (as shown by Jose).
The main reason why I stay is because of the friendships I've developed and the fact that I can /still/ help others hit the wall I'm at... which I find somewhat enjoyable :whoops:
So. Add me cause I know you're in Ruairi and we can roflstomp stuff together :blush:
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Slayerj wrote on 2014-04-27 21:48
I should go back and edit my post to also say I was aiming that slightly at people yelling for nerfs on stuff to make things more difficult. XD
Also Crye, I guess that just gives them more room to make new things harder in the future?
We've still yet to get that one place in Belvast(Belfast? idk lol) and now we're getting sucked away from all that with this Saga stuff which also might bring it's own new content thing in Season 2, and who knows how many more seasons it'll have. By the time it's over and they do give us that place, we could see mobs [S]so hard Dark Souls/Dark Souls 2 will be trying to put them in their game.[/S] that are challenging and maybe that dungeon revamp that I think they talked about doing years ago? Or...was that something else. Too lazy to dig through the old Foreign mabi content area.
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Aubog007 wrote on 2014-04-28 03:50
@Reyaxris.
There are plenty of games that do endgame right. Maplestory and Mabinogi are neither of those. Endgame should not be a roflstomp fest, endgame should have teamwork attached to it to acquire higher end rewards. Maplestory requires a lot of fucking RL money, while
mabinogi requires a lot of time. Because of this, there is a huge gap. Maplestory had a nice endgame before they caved into pay2win. And mabi was fine earlier until the fact that people spent years getting everything, but the total true endgame population is not high, as well as the conundrum for the endgame mabi player...
What the fuck are you going to even receive.
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Syliara wrote on 2014-04-28 03:54
Quote from Aubog007;1217394:
@Reyaxris.
There are plenty of games that do endgame right. Maplestory and Mabinogi are neither of those. Endgame should not be a roflstomp fest, endgame should have teamwork attached to it to acquire higher end rewards. Maplestory requires a lot of fucking RL money, while
mabinogi requires a lot of time. Because of this, there is a huge gap. Maplestory had a nice endgame before they caved into pay2win. And mabi was fine earlier until the fact that people spent years getting everything, but the total true endgame population is not high, as well as the conundrum for the endgame mabi player...
What the fuck are you going to even receive.
TERA does a pretty good job of making end game difficult even for a capped out player. Though its class restricted, but that just shows how effective class restriction is in making challenging content.
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Perfectio wrote on 2014-04-28 09:04
Yeah, it's clear at this point that giving players access to every skill does not work no matter how freedom it gives the player. Also we run into the problem where you have classes that are clearly better than the other at doing the same thing, while in normal MMOs content is designed to need every class to clear it.
I'm pretty sure the same thing happened in Ultima Online too.
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Cyrene wrote on 2014-04-28 10:01
Quote from Perfectio;1217438:
Yeah, it's clear at this point that giving players access to every skill does not work no matter how freedom it gives the player. Also we run into the problem where you have classes that are clearly better than the other at doing the same thing, while in normal MMOs content is designed to need every class to clear it.
I'm pretty sure the same thing happened in Ultima Online too.
I'm pretty sure ultima does not let you cap every skill in game. That would ruin the point. In fact, you can only use 720 points in total on skills. Which isn't a lot as you'd think because each skill goes up to 100.
Anyways, I don't see a problem with giving a player access to every skill in the game, as long as you make balanced content for it. Which devcat really isn't doing.
Like Martial arts tournament in my opinion was a good start, but we need more things like that. Hopefully with a better drop table. They could do a lot with their game that would be great for endgame players. A bandaid to challenge in my opinion is at least give us back the old defense and remove the str adds def buff. It was so pointless to add.
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loli123 wrote on 2014-04-28 13:41
weren't people just complaining about overpowered stuff on another thread?
now its too easy apparently