Let's Talk: Lullaby, easy mob control with just a click of a button.

• Eiryie wrote on 2014-04-29 00:11

  Quote from Perfectio;1217511:

  Puppet:
  
  +CC and mob manipulation
  -Damage (Take away Puppetry's STR/Dex scaling entirely, and if that doesn't kill its damage, then reduce the skill multipliers. Lower cooldowns a bit. Puppetry should have either CC or damage, not both.)

  
  
  The thing about puppetry is that the puppeteer is often very squishy.
  As a total level 600 Puppeteer (That is, no master talents yet), Eiry finds it very hard to survive in situations where both Eiry and her puppet get aggroed, especially if Eiry doesn't have enough damage to deal with the situation.
  Using a sword and a shield, Eiry doesn't have that problem at all.
  
  Lowering the damage of puppets would make the skillset useless to all except end-game players with several other HP-boosting Master Talents to back it up.
  
  Maybe if Crisis actually provoked enemies like it says it should, had a considerably shorter cooldown, and gave the puppet Adv heavy stander for a little while... and repairing puppets was less difficult/expensive/time-consuming without a nimbus, it would be a fair change.
• Syliara wrote on 2014-04-29 00:18

  Quote from Eiryie;1217531:

  The thing about puppetry is that the puppeteer is often very squishy.
  As a total level 600 Puppeteer (That is, no master talents yet), Eiry finds it very hard to survive in situations where both Eiry and her puppet get aggroed, especially if Eiry doesn't have enough damage to deal with the situation.
  Using a sword and a shield, Eiry doesn't have that problem at all.
  
  Lowering the damage of puppets would make the skillset useless to all except end-game players with several other HP-boosting Master Talents to back it up.
  
  Maybe if Crisis actually provoked enemies like it says it should, had a considerably shorter cooldown, and gave the puppet Adv heavy stander for a little while... and repairing puppets was less difficult/expensive/time-consuming without a nimbus, it would be a fair change.

  
  
  Puppets use str and dex, str gives defense. Puppeteers arent really squishy compared to most skillsets, they have a dmg contributing stat that also increases their defensive stat so they can be very "tanky" (i use the word loosely here because loltanks). "level 600 total puppeteer" would explain why you are squishy. The skillset really takes off at higher totals and starts to show a lot of its high damage potential later along with the fact that they arent really very squishy at all. Not really agreeing with perfectio or anyone but i wouldnt call puppeteers squishy, and I dont think a 600 total puppeteer is a good reference for its damage negation potential.
• Eiryie wrote on 2014-04-29 00:35

  Quote from Nui;1217532:

  Puppets use str and dex, str gives defense. Puppeteers arent really squishy compared to most skillsets, they have a dmg contributing stat that also increases their defensive stat so they can be very "tanky" (i use the word loosely here because loltanks). "level 600 total puppeteer" would explain why you are squishy. The skillset really takes off at higher totals and starts to show a lot of its high damage potential later along with the fact that they arent really very squishy at all. Not really agreeing with perfectio or anyone but i wouldnt call puppeteers squishy, and I dont think a 600 total puppeteer is a good reference for its damage negation potential.

  
  
  @bold: What skillset doesn't?
  
  In full gear, Eiry has 52 defense and 11 protection.
  
  Not to rely on his argument, but Perfectio said that "What we really need is better role definition". Consider that.
  If everyone is assigned to, let's say, two roles (one for each weapon slot), that means we can choose one or two talents to specialize in.
  
  Ignoring other talents because the time investment for even a single master talent is huge, puppeteers really don't have much in the way of survivability.
  Currently, Eiry is puppeteer/warrior, so pretty tanky in comparison to other skillsets.
  But using control bars, Eiry is pretty exposed.
  
  Once again, sticking to talent-only skills...
  A mage in close-range has a number of options: Bolt magic, shockwave, mana shield, snapcast or even Ice Spear.
  Gunners also have that shooty-back skill.
  Puppeteers separated from their puppet have Puppet's Snare for dealing with a charging enemy, and that's about it.
  
  The thing is that puppeteers have a lack of "deal with enemies that are aggro'd to you" skills, most puppet skills instead preferring to focus on the puppet.
  All puppet-based skills, for example, cancel if the puppeteer gets hit. Eiry can't count the number of times she's been killed because a lancer splashed, or an alchemist wind blasted/water cannoned, or an archer shot before crisis finished loading.
  
  So maybe Eiry said it wrong - Puppeteers aren't squishy. They're lacking in "save yourself" skills so they take a lot of damage.
• Renzato wrote on 2014-04-29 01:03

  Quote from Eiryie;1217536:

  
  Puppeteers separated from their puppet have Puppet's Snare for dealing with a charging enemy, and that's about it.
  

  
  
  What's stopping a puppeteer from using Counter, Windmill, or any of the other skills that are useable with control bars?
• Syliara wrote on 2014-04-29 01:14

  Quote from Eiryie;1217536:

  @bold: What skillset doesn't?
  
  In full gear, Eiry has 52 defense and 11 protection.
  
  Not to rely on his argument, but Perfectio said that "What we really need is better role definition". Consider that.
  If everyone is assigned to, let's say, two roles (one for each weapon slot), that means we can choose one or two talents to specialize in.
  
  Ignoring other talents because the time investment for even a single master talent is huge, puppeteers really don't have much in the way of survivability.
  Currently, Eiry is puppeteer/warrior, so pretty tanky in comparison to other skillsets.
  But using control bars, Eiry is pretty exposed.
  
  Once again, sticking to talent-only skills...
  A mage in close-range has a number of options: Bolt magic, shockwave, mana shield, snapcast or even Ice Spear.
  Gunners also have that shooty-back skill.
  Puppeteers separated from their puppet have Puppet's Snare for dealing with a charging enemy, and that's about it.
  
  The thing is that puppeteers have a lack of "deal with enemies that are aggro'd to you" skills, most puppet skills instead preferring to focus on the puppet.
  All puppet-based skills, for example, cancel if the puppeteer gets hit. Eiry can't count the number of times she's been killed because a lancer splashed, or an alchemist wind blasted/water cannoned, or an archer shot before crisis finished loading.
  
  So maybe Eiry said it wrong - Puppeteers aren't squishy. They're lacking in "save yourself" skills so they take a lot of damage.

  
  
  Maybe you arent doing it correctly? I have no issues keeping mobs off me using puppets. You have all the close combat skills, combined with things like act 4 and act 6. Act 4 has a really large radius and does a knock back, along with the fact its super fast to use even if u arent connected to ur puppet as long as its in range. Act 6 gains heavy stander on use and stacks protection on the puppet so that it can do any tanking for you. I dont see any major issues with puppeteer survivability at this point in time.
  
  

  Quote from Renzato;1217543:

  What's stopping a puppeteer from using Counter, Windmill, or any of the other skills that are useable with control bars?

  
  
  Lol pretty much, theres nothing stopping you from using those skills with control bars as well.
• Yanm wrote on 2014-04-29 01:16

  Quote from Eiryie;1217536:

  @bold: What skillset doesn't?
  
  In full gear, Eiry has 52 defense and 11 protection.
  
  Not to rely on his argument, but Perfectio said that "What we really need is better role definition". Consider that.
  If everyone is assigned to, let's say, two roles (one for each weapon slot), that means we can choose one or two talents to specialize in.
  
  Ignoring other talents because the time investment for even a single master talent is huge, puppeteers really don't have much in the way of survivability.
  Currently, Eiry is puppeteer/warrior, so pretty tanky in comparison to other skillsets.
  But using control bars, Eiry is pretty exposed.
  
  Once again, sticking to talent-only skills...
  A mage in close-range has a number of options: Bolt magic, shockwave, mana shield, snapcast or even Ice Spear.
  Gunners also have that shooty-back skill.
  Puppeteers separated from their puppet have Puppet's Snare for dealing with a charging enemy, and that's about it.
  
  The thing is that puppeteers have a lack of "deal with enemies that are aggro'd to you" skills, most puppet skills instead preferring to focus on the puppet.
  All puppet-based skills, for example, cancel if the puppeteer gets hit. Eiry can't count the number of times she's been killed because a lancer splashed, or an alchemist wind blasted/water cannoned, or an archer shot before crisis finished loading.
  
  So maybe Eiry said it wrong - Puppeteers aren't squishy. They're lacking in "save yourself" skills so they take a lot of damage.

  
  
  I believe what Pure meant was more so that puppets and gunner are skillsets that would shine more when you have higher str/dex and str/int stats, rather than starting out with. If you were to start out with say, Range since you're an Elf, or magic, you'd possibly do more damage and kill faster than with puppets.
  
  On another hand, you're an Elf, so you won't be as tanky as a human or a giant.
  
  Third, [S]Why am I saying this[/S]Renzato has a point. I'd think of it that with the understanding that puppetry is a lot better with str and dex, you'd have the combat skills to back up a dangerous situation. In the event my puppet and I get separated, I can just melee with the control bars, because I've been a warrior/archer since I started Mabi back in G7.
• Slayerj wrote on 2014-04-29 01:21

  Quote from Renzato;1217543:

  What's stopping a puppeteer from using Counter, Windmill, or any of the other skills that are useable with control bars?

  
  
  Because then you drop your puppet to let it get beat on, and if it dies then you have to use the other. If it's not ranked as high, then it's shit. As well as the same thing can happen to it. At the same time, what is single agro? Besides a few dungeons and even fewer missions, this game is WAY too heavy on multi agro. It becomes less about any single target skills, and just shoots for the AoE everything to death. If you can't do that, and you can't take getting swarmed, then you're out of luck.
  
  That's not a problem when you're late/end game...like I'm assuming a good few people here are. >.>
• Syliara wrote on 2014-04-29 01:23

  Quote from Slayerj;1217547:

  Because then you drop your puppet to let it get beat on, and if it dies then you have to use the other. If it's not ranked as high, then it's shit. As well as the same thing can happen to it. At the same time, what is single agro? Besides a few dungeons and even fewer missions, this game is WAY too heavy on multi agro. It becomes less about any single target skills, and just shoots for the AoE everything to death. If you can't do that, and you can't take getting swarmed, then you're out of luck.
  
  That's not a problem when you're late/end game...like I'm assuming a good few people here are. >.>

  
  
  Utilize act 6 prot stack. You can negate all dmg besides magic dmg to 1's on ur puppet if u stack a few times.
• Yanm wrote on 2014-04-29 01:25

  Quote from Slayerj;1217547:

  Because then you drop your puppet to let it get beat on, and if it dies then you have to use the other. If it's not ranked as high, then it's shit. As well as the same thing can happen to it. At the same time, what is single agro? Besides a few dungeons and even fewer missions, this game is WAY too heavy on multi agro. It becomes less about any single target skills, and just shoots for the AoE everything to death. If you can't do that, and you can't take getting swarmed, then you're out of luck.
  
  That's not a problem when you're late/end game...like I'm assuming a good few people here are. >.>

  
  
  But Slayer, the point was more so if you were separated from your puppet, not just dropping it in battle to use melee.
• Renzato wrote on 2014-04-29 01:30

  Quote from Slayerj;1217547:

  Because then you drop your puppet to let it get beat on, and if it dies then you have to use the other. If it's not ranked as high, then it's shit. As well as the same thing can happen to it. At the same time, what is single agro? Besides a few dungeons and even fewer missions, this game is WAY too heavy on multi agro. It becomes less about any single target skills, and just shoots for the AoE everything to death. If you can't do that, and you can't take getting swarmed, then you're out of luck.
  
  That's not a problem when you're late/end game...like I'm assuming a good few people here are. >.>

  
  
  ...
  wat
• Slayerj wrote on 2014-04-29 01:30

  Quote from Yanm;1217549:

  But Slayer, the point was more so if you were separated from your puppet, not just dropping it in battle to use melee.

  
  
  The same thing applies... Your puppet is still going to get beat on. Sure you can try and handle yourself, but remember. Eriy is total 600 or so, so still not that high or far into the game.
  
  Most of these nerfs that are being suggested are hurting stuff for new players that would go into said skill sets. It may be somewhat balanced for late/end game but it sure as hell isn't for early.
• Syliara wrote on 2014-04-29 01:36

  Quote from Slayerj;1217551:

  The same thing applies... Your puppet is still going to get beat on. Sure you can try and handle yourself, but remember. Eriy is total 600 or so, so still not that high or far into the game.
  
  Most of these nerfs that are being suggested are hurting stuff for new players that would go into said skill sets. It may be somewhat balanced for late/end game but it sure as hell isn't for early.

  
  
  Game is already ridiculously easy for new players. It doesnt take much to stomp the content at ur level anymore, it was a lot more painful a few years ago and thats how a lot of people liked it. The only reason people would complain its too difficult is because at this point everything is spoonfed to us by nexon/devcat on a silver platter and people got too fking lazy to deal with the game the correct way or how it was before. These nerfs are meant to bring difficulty back to the game, not to keep it super easy like it is. If you cant handle elites, do adv, if u cant handle adv, do int and so on and so forth until you have the money/ap/gear to take on more challenging content instead of whining that you cant clear the more difficult content in the game at a low level and that the game is too difficult because of that. I'm honestly tired of people saying the game is too difficult for players in the lower tiers or that nerfs are hurting new players when the game is stupid easy at this point even at lower levels.
  
  /end rant (maybe)
• Eiryie wrote on 2014-04-29 01:40

  Quote from Nui;1217545:

  Maybe you arent doing it correctly? I have no issues keeping mobs off me using puppets. You have all the close combat skills, combined with things like act 4 and act 6. Act 4 has a really large radius and does a knock back, along with the fact its super fast to use even if u arent connected to ur puppet as long as its in range. Act 6 gains heavy stander on use and stacks protection on the puppet so that it can do any tanking for you. I dont see any major issues with puppeteer survivability at this point in time.

  
  
  

  Quote from Renzato;1217543:

  What's stopping a puppeteer from using Counter, Windmill, or any of the other skills that are useable with control bars?

  
  
  Eiry was staying inside single-talent definitions, mostly because the discussion was centered around "changing role definition", being that we'd focus people more into specific roles.
  
  It's true that you can use close combat with puppets, but Eiry doesn't often do this with the sole exception of windmill on a rare occasion because Eiry's puppet skills are generally higher rank.
  For example, Eiry takes over 100 damage after using the Defense skill on a regular basis with her control bars.
  The thing is, Eiry tends to get hit during the loading of a skill. It's rare that Eiry will be hit while also being free to load a skill, because any time that Eiry can load a skill she usually is either loading one or switching puppets.
  So that skill cancels, Eiry re-loads and executes. Or, Eiry gets knocked back and switches puppets. Either way, close combat skills aren't very useful while using control bars simply because the puppet hits harder.
  
  Act 6 doesn't give heavy stander - It just stops the puppet from being knocked down. Skills will still cancel if the puppet is struck during that time, essentially making the puppet a walking meatshield with a ton of aggro and no damage until the mobs give it a break. Assuming you weren't able to CC.
  
  

  Quote from Nui;1217548:

  Utilize act 6 prot stack. You can negate all dmg besides magic dmg to 1's on ur puppet if u stack a few times.

  
  
  Eiry doesn't know how to do this.
• Syliara wrote on 2014-04-29 01:42

  Quote from Eiryie;1217554:

  Eiry was staying inside single-talent definitions, mostly because the discussion was centered around "changing role definition", being that we'd focus people more into specific roles.
  
  It's true that you can use close combat with puppets, but Eiry doesn't often do this with the sole exception of windmill on a rare occasion because Eiry's puppet skills are generally higher rank.
  For example, Eiry takes over 100 damage after using the Defense skill on a regular basis with her control bars.
  The thing is, Eiry tends to get hit during the loading of a skill. It's rare that Eiry will be hit while also being free to load a skill, because any time that Eiry can load a skill she usually is either loading one or switching puppets.
  So that skill cancels, Eiry re-loads and executes. Or, Eiry gets knocked back and switches puppets. Either way, close combat skills aren't very useful while using control bars simply because the puppet hits harder.
  
  Act 6 doesn't give heavy stander - It just stops the puppet from being knocked down. Skills will still cancel if the puppet is struck during that time, essentially making the puppet a walking meatshield with a ton of aggro and no damage until the mobs give it a break. Assuming you weren't able to CC.
  
  
  
  Eiry doesn't know how to do this.

  
  
  You can still fire off act 6 i think, its a bit odd how it works but ive done it before as long as ur not being spammed attacked by a bunch of mobs.
  
  Load act 6, cancel, load act 6, cancel repeat and so forth. Doesnt need the animation to finish so u can do it rapid.
• Eiryie wrote on 2014-04-29 01:47

  Quote from Nui;1217552:

  Game is already ridiculously easy for new players. It doesnt take much to stomp the content at ur level anymore, it was a lot more painful a few years ago and thats how a lot of people liked it. The only reason people would complain its too difficult is because at this point everything is spoonfed to us by nexon/devcat on a silver platter and people got too fking lazy to deal with the game the correct way or how it was before. These nerfs are meant to bring difficulty back to the game, not to keep it super easy like it is. If you cant handle elites, do adv, if u cant handle adv, do int and so on and so forth until you have the money/ap/gear to take on more challenging content instead of whining that you cant clear the more difficult content in the game at a low level and that the game is too difficult because of that. I'm honestly tired of people saying the game is too difficult for players in the lower tiers or that nerfs are hurting new players when the game is stupid easy at this point even at lower levels.
  
  /end rant (maybe)

  
  
  Eiry has been around since G3, but often deleted her characters after ~1 year since she was dissatisfied with them. Then Eiry quit mabi in G10 and came back in G16.
  
  It's true the game has become much easier, but the requirements to hit end-game have also become much higher.
  
  Take a look at all the gold sinks. Special upgrades, reforges, rare and hard-to-get armor and weapons.
  
  Take a look at where the most gold is made. Elite missions, Martial Arts Tourney, etc.
  
  A new player will gain AP very quickly. Eiry has experienced this first-hand.
  The things that new player is required to do also increase dramatically over the first 1000 levels.
  
  Eiry is only total level 600 and already preparing to make her Demonic control bars. Granted, she won't start on that for another rebirth or two but think back to, say, G9 when the thing most people were worried about was whether or not Nerys would fail the repair on their Goddess Obsidian Daggers.
  
  It's impossible to consider the game now as it was back then - Sure, things have gotten easier. But the things newbies are required to do have also gotten more complicated and much more expensive.
  
  

  Quote from Nui;1217555:

  You can still fire off act 6 i think, its a bit odd how it works but ive done it before as long as ur not being spammed attacked by a bunch of mobs.
  
  Load act 6, cancel, load act 6, cancel repeat and so forth. Doesnt need the animation to finish so u can do it rapid.

  
  
  If a puppet loading a skill after having used Crisis gets hit, the loaded skill will cancel. 100% of the time.
  
  Eiry will have to try that stacky thing. o ωo;