Continuation of the Wiki Discussion

• Mystickskye wrote on 2014-09-14 20:49

  Quote from Rydian;1247285:

  This is pretty ironic to hear from the person who told me that the wiki is NOT a place to hold info about the game and that having info about foreign content is NOT useful even though it gives the wiki a head-start on articles when/if the content hits NA (in addition to the reasons that other users posted earlier in the thread).
  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Thread:Talk:Patches/Unreleased_Content/reply_%2857%29
  
  (For context, that post is a reply to this set of questions somebody proposed to the wiki community about their thoughts on the patch page and what to do with unreleased content.)
  
  Forgive me if it seems I'm being a little too snarky here (am just making sure I point your attention to what I see as an issue), I just feel the need to point this out to you specifically since you seem to wonder what's up. People go on the wiki and they see users like you stating the things you say and pushing against holding info about the game and content, and then you wonder why people are more hesitant to put info on it? :P

  I think you're taking things a bit out of context there and possibly even deliberately misunderstanding.
  
  Does the wiki hold info about the game? Yes. It's basic chief purpose is to be able to help and guide the public on playing the game (amusingly users in /v/ have been seen saying that the wiki is the resource for the game).
  
  Is the wiki a place for any and all info? No. If people would like to know more about Celtic mythology or the background of Shakespeare or things that aren't really related to playing the game then it's suggested people look elsewhere. "Macbeth the Mainstream Quest plotline and Macbeth the real life book by Shakespeare differs in these ways", "Macha is the only goddess with red wings", "Rua says she isn't Macha" or even "In Japan this clothing can be bought in NPC stores" isn't the sort of information encouraged on the wiki (all of the above has been on the wiki at some point). So to clarify the earlier statement, if you have something to share the wiki wants to hear from you. Whether or not the information actually goes onto the wiki is another matter, subject to how helpful/important it would be to people wanting help in playing the game. Which is the useful statement? That an NPC that starts with 100% food in a short RP mission specifically has bread from Nao in their inventory or that an NPC in an RP mission comes with potions to recover HP/MP/SP? Sometimes the line is clear, sometimes it's fuzzy. That's why we at least try to talk things out. But no, the purpose of the wiki isn't to "hold information regardless".
  
  Is a basic list of content that may not even be thorough/complete helpful? Debatable. Analysis of wiki traffic seemed to suggest it wasn't a popular page even when unreleased and released content were combined together. No one actually seemed to use the "Unreleased/Future content" as a "head start " so I'm not sure how else it's helpful. There aren't really any other arguments given either and the only other person that felt strongly about it made statements in the vein of "by definition trivia is important information". I'm sorry that we're butting heads on this but I don't personally see much use of a poorly maintained basic, almost non-descriptive text that typically says less than Nexon's patch notes (also note that people could otherwise just keep the information on userpages if they wanted to use it?).
  
  Well, luckily for the public my word isn't final on that, I'm not wiki staff in any way nor do I always agree with wiki staff. Again, this is why we try to talk things out. If my word alone dissuades people then I sincerely apologise, let's try again.
  
  @Yoorah; if there are inaccuracies the wiki community would like to know so they can be fixed.
  
  @ironwoman; I can't speak for other editors but I typically don't have information on things like enchants upcoming or otherwise. No one is obligated to keep the wiki up to date on anything (part of why the mabiguru wiki died maybe?) but it's nice if people try.
  
  On the side, it's sort of cute that people think the wiki has issues with people/drama when they frequent a forum as large as this :V Not too long ago when I tried correcting someone on game "info" they basically told me to piss off.
• Aubog007 wrote on 2014-09-14 20:55
  Don't get me started.
  
  I remember a community member here posted something data mined on the wiki. Then someone else here with a grudge against data miners got them banned on mabi permanently.
  
  As far as i know. One of them has posted in this thread, the other hasnt played nor posted in ages.
  
  If anyone remembers Osay blacklisting Nexon sites. Well, i could post on and on about that, but that would involve members here.
• Second wrote on 2014-09-14 21:02

  Quote from Aubog007;1247316:

  Don't get me started.
  
  I remember a community member here posted something data mined on the wiki. Then someone else here with a grudge against data miners got them banned on mabi permanently.

  
  
  If I remember, it forced sabrina to post the reason why 3 people got banned and one of them was a wiki mod. They all hacked apparently.
• Aubog007 wrote on 2014-09-14 21:06

  Quote from Second;1247317:

  If I remember, it forced sabrina to post the reason why 3 people got banned and one of them was a wiki mod. They all hacked apparently.

  
  
  There was special conversations given to me which showed some of the backstory behind those reasonings, basically they used the wiki as sort of a gate, and then banned certain people based on their "annoyance" factor while finding a legitimate reason for it.
• Second wrote on 2014-09-14 21:09

  Quote from Aubog007;1247320:

  There was special conversations given to me which showed some of the backstory behind those reasonings, basically they used the wiki as sort of a gate, and then banned certain people based on their "annoyance" factor while finding a legitimate reason for it.

  
  
  That sounds like the stuff that alexina players make up. Post them and I'll believe it.
• Aubog007 wrote on 2014-09-14 21:11

  Quote from Second;1247322:

  That sounds like the stuff that alexina players make up. Post them and I'll believe it.

  
  
  I would rather not.
  I've had it verified with certain people, so that's all that matters to me, and enough time has passed for it to be a non issue. I brought it up because it helped start this whole mess.
• Jake wrote on 2014-09-14 21:16

  Quote from Second;1247322:

  That sounds like the stuff that alexina players make up. Post them and I'll believe it.

  
  
  Posting conversation logs in my opinion would give no further credit or discredit to his statements. They could be forged if you are shown what you are requesting. You would have to take his word for his statements, or you would have to take his word for the validity of the conversations being posted
  
  [SIZE="1"]note to aubog: not discrediting you or accusing you of doing this in any way, just giving a reason to why it's not really necessary for them to be posted[/SIZE]
• Sinned wrote on 2014-09-14 21:20
  As someone who edits once a year at most (mostly because I have nothing much to contribute most of the time or because I technically haven't quit even though I almost never log on), I'm just saying that if you have information that appears to be useful to other players, add it in.
  
  The wiki is community based, anybody can register, anybody can ban dodge, it's hard to maintain a free environment when you consider:
  1) Self-Entitled people think that their information is relevant when it's really not, and get extremely defensive when told to calm down and review their submissions and why it wasn't appropriate
  2) Trolls who have nothing better to do than to wreck shit or anger others
  3) Contributors are driven away due to #1 and #2
  
  I get that people want to show their work and say "Hey, I'm being helpful," but realize that you shouldn't be doing this for attention or honor, you should be doing it for the intention of helping better other players and their understandings of the game.
  And if you ever feel that your edits have been wrongfully removed or reverted, speak up. You're anonymous (technically) and you've got nothing to lose to show why you think something is right. I mean, if it's right then good job. If it's not then no big deal, it's an online database for a game, not your SAT score.
  
  Just my 2 cents as an onlooker for the most part.
• ttinchung111 wrote on 2014-09-14 21:23
  So much wiki drama, but yeah theres been a problem with the wiki not being updated or very accurate a lot of the times such as where specially enchanted items or new enchants are when they are released, and so on, and a massive lack of information about how all the newer skills work and even stuff like ranges of ego weapons are missing. I try to add in what I can, like back when gold strike came out, I ranked it to rank 1 and contributed a lot of the skill rank information as it was massively falsified, but at least the wiki is useful to most people, still. I mainly do minor edits to fix small mistakes, but other than that I leave the wiki alone.
• Rydian wrote on 2014-09-14 22:16

  Quote from Mystickskye;1247315:

  I think you're taking things a bit out of context there and possibly even deliberately misunderstanding.
  
  Does the wiki hold info about the game? Yes. It's basic chief purpose is to be able to help and guide the public on playing the game (amusingly users in /v/ have been seen saying that the wiki is the resource for the game).
  
  Is the wiki a place for any and all info? No. If people would like to know more about Celtic mythology or the background of Shakespeare or things that aren't really related to playing the game then it's suggested people look elsewhere. "Macbeth the Mainstream Quest plotline and Macbeth the real life book by Shakespeare differs in these ways", "Macha is the only goddess with red wings", "Rua says she isn't Macha" or even "In Japan this clothing can be bought in NPC stores" isn't the sort of information encouraged on the wiki (all of the above has been on the wiki at some point).

  I realize that's your standard defensive stance, but "lolno".
  The discussion was about actual game content, not trivia.
  
  Check the root of the discussion and check the questions I was answering.
  - The root issue did not involve trivia.
  - The questions did not mention trivia.
  - My answers did not mention trivia.
  - Your response to me did not mention trivia.
  
  It was all about content that had not hit NA yet, which at the time included Treasure Hunter, New Beginnings, and things like that. You went into a discussion on trivia with other users after that response to me.
  
  When answering me and when talking about the discussion, you and Nise Panda (the person who proposed the removal) specifically stated that the wiki should not have information on upcoming skills and game content.
  
  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Thread:Talk:Patches/Unreleased_Content/reply_%28101%29
  

  Quote from Mystickskye:

  No because I don't think we should have a Foreign Content/Skipped Content section at all.

  
  
  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Thread:Talk:Patches/Unreleased_Content/reply_%2880%29
  

  Quote from Nise Panda:

  But I don't want "Skipped Content" to turn into anything. I want it to die. Do you see my point of view?

  
  
  Try to claim "misunderstanding" all you want, there's the direct quotes and links of you and another wiki user stating that you wanted info on game content removed from the wiki.
  
  And in this thread (including what I'm about to post) we have people complaining that when foreign updates hit NA, there's very little information! Partially because you and others discourage people from updating the wiki with upcoming content.
  
  And do I even need to get into when you start insulting people for adding info you don't care about (the trivia issue you keep bringing up)? You claim "We want the info, give us info, you're welcome to edit it" but then half of that linked wiki thread is you downtalking somebody for adding info you don't see as important.
  
  
  
  

  Quote from ttinchung111;1247327:

  such as where specially enchanted items or new enchants are when they are released

  For these, a lot of times people just don't know due to low drop rates and not having a clue.
  
  Like if I were to tell you "There's an enchant in the game, find it" what would you do? Would you have the time and energy to run through every dungeon and every shadow mission on every difficulty and kill every field boss 100 times to see where the enchant is and is not? :P
  
  Mabinogi, unlike other games, has (as far as I know) never had drop rates or locations data-mined because it's all server-side and never presented. So this sort of info comes out when players run whatever it is and actually get the drop (which can happen very rarely, like some rare enchants out of shadow missions that need an elite pass), and then that person happens to be a wiki editor.
  
  

  Quote from ttinchung111;1247327:

  and a massive lack of information about how all the newer skills work

  The info gets tested slowly over time as it's released here. I didn't start editing stuff on ninja skills until a few days in or something because I was playing the game and having fun with the skills first. Afterwards I'd do little edits, like noting which skills ignored protection for crit rate and junk that I could.
  
  A lot of this isn't known beforehand because videos from overseas tend to not talk about minor details, and those NA players that have access to KR rarely (if ever) spend any NX on KR and tend to have weak characters and laggy connections due to the distances involved.
  
  Like, which passive skills were triggered by which ninja skills was barely tested because the KR team seemed to mainly consist of total level 10 characters in Tir with newbie equipment and like 700 ping... making it very difficult to test certain things because it's not like anything easily accessible to those characters has passives but will still keep the characters alive long enough to test, 'ya know?
  
  

  Quote from ttinchung111;1247327:

  and even stuff like ranges of ego weapons are missing. I try to add in what I can, like back when gold strike came out, I ranked it to rank 1 and contributed a lot of the skill rank information as it was massively falsified, but at least the wiki is useful to most people, still. I mainly do minor edits to fix small mistakes, but other than that I leave the wiki alone.

  Yeah I try to check out and edit some of the info that people shy away from, like I filled out the repair rates for the elven long bow ego just two months or so ago because it wasn't up there. Everybody goes with something else instead and the poor elven long bow had almost no ego info filled out... despite tying with the wing bow for range and having existed as long or longer.
• Mystickskye wrote on 2014-09-14 22:35
  You have very clearly misunderstood me and several others. We were not talking about future content in general and in fact people do work on it and are not discouraged from it (I have in fact in the past worked on it). We were very specifically talking about a page similar to the Patches page that would have similar notes except on content not yet in NA. In fact that page exists! It's right here. How do I know this is what we were talking about? Because we also discussed it very heavily in the mabinogiworld IRC.
  
  So no, we do not in fact discourage people from updating with upcoming content. That is very definitely a gross misunderstanding on your part.
  
  And again, we claim we want useful info. I will make no attempt to hide this. I only mentioned trivia because that's the best example of some "information" we've cleared out from the wiki.
• ironwoman wrote on 2014-09-15 00:04

  Quote from Mystickskye;1247315:

  @ironwoman; I can't speak for other editors but I typically don't have information on things like enchants upcoming or otherwise. No one is obligated to keep the wiki up to date on anything (part of why the mabiguru wiki died maybe?) but it's nice if people try.

  
  
  If people can get info on stupid ass wings from foreign gachapons, they definitely have the ability to get info about enchants. It literally takes me 10 minutes (or less) to find unreleased enchants.
  
  Like, no offense to many editors, there are so many dumbass editors. This Nise Panda person in the thread Rydian mentioned in your quote box? A classic fashionogi. I can list a lot more. These people aren't the ones that will give out the most helpful information.
• Kadalyn wrote on 2014-09-15 00:12
  Hey guys! Current MWorld admin here, watching the discussion of this discussion in IRC.
  
  A lot of you have seemed to have had bad experiences on the wiki, and I'm really sorry about that. Though I'd like to mention that many of your experiences, besides Rydian's, were far in the past! Since then, we've undergone several revisions. Depending on how far back they were (which at least a few seemed so), we've changed systems staff and hosts, management staff, and the wiki staff system (in that we have moderators now instead of just admins). In roughly that order. I think that along with these staff changes, we've also worked toward a much better wiki:
  
  One that's more stable, with practically no down time since the switch (the switch was after the major down time, in which Code et al attempted the switch to Mabinoger). We did have that DNS issue recently, though, but the actual servers weren't down, just inaccessible through the URL for some people due to a Microsoft takeover of no-ip.
  
  One that's more fair, with more moderation so that fashionogis, as you say, won't replace images that fairly meet our standards. NisePanda is particularly super on top of this. This staff, and many nonstaff members, also seriously look into things like revisions, debating them and bringing them up to staff as necessary. Our goal is to really make it an open and inviting environment henceforth, though we admittedly have some current to swim against.
  
  The moderation staff also puts in serious time preparing foreign content and implementing it into the wiki upon its release. We don't discourage foreign content, really, but we have in fact shifted to encouraging it to be placed on user pages when it's not mainstream content. This was notable for the Ninja content, which we weren't sure of actually getting (nor allowed to speak of until the official announcement when we did find out). Mikaya and Kiyoura made a very stellar effort of collecting and preparing this information prior to the release, not to mention many other editors who contributed to those pages during the preparation.
  
  Of course all of them, including Blargel too, do a wonderful job moderating and trying to keep everything in line, despite the heated opinions from some of the more unreasonable people that they have to moderate.
  
  Khenta (who recently came back! :D), saiyr, and I have been working in the shadows on the upcoming features for the wiki. They're slow developing since we're all busy people with real jobs that actually pay us - not to mention saiyr takes a hit on hosting fees nearly every month, since the ads don't pay enough to support the demand on MWW. It doesn't bother him though, as we put in all this time, money, and effort for the benefit of you, the Mabinogi community.
  
  And of course, if you have any grievances from here on out that you haven't been able to settle directly with the other parties involved, please, come to me. I am happy to hear you out at any stage, and either help you to deal with the situation, or if I have to, deal with it myself. Since this is a community-run environment, I think it's the best case if users are able to maturely discuss their issues and work it out among themselves, so of course I have to live up to that and facilitate these sorts of resolutions in whatever means.
  
  In terms of cliques, the moderation staff was in part put in place to break these up. However, you must realize that one of the reasons people perceive cliques is simply because these are the people that actually discuss their concerns with us. If the other side, as it were, never actually talks to us; who else are we supposed to listen to? We do our best to investigate the situations, though. We do our best to be impartial, but that can really only go as far as the involved parties help us. So if you have concerns with someone, anyone, even staff, talk to us! I know that I've had to reprimand staff members in the past, and I'm certainly happy to do so when it's necessary, and even banned Kevin, who seems to be one of the concerns in this thread. If you check the staff page, it has all of our relevant contact information.
  
  In terms of the topic of this thread, how we could use a sort of experimental section, Blargel recently made a page tag for this: http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Template:Research
  We need to make more use of it, though, definitely. It's hard to pick out what has and hasn't been tested, and honestly we haven't spearheaded any effort for doing so, yet.
  
  In terms of inaccuracies, it really is dependent on you guys! Subsequently, we love your contributions! Reading this thread, I think the main concern is with information not being wholly up-to-date, rather than actually false. People addressed that quite well here, I think. In order to not have false information, contributors do test the skills and things extensively before contributing, which does take time. In other respects, we've been missing some ego info since they were released. It's all about what's important to the contributor who does them. Though, out of this thread, I was thinking that maybe we could compile a list of data that is typically incomplete to go with our editing guides for new users? So it would list things like how much of the ego data is incomplete, and other things like that. There could even be some maps for like "when new skills are released, these are the pages that need to be updated" sort of thing. How does that sound?
  
  Anyway, I hope you all who have had bad experiences in the past will give contributing another try, because we really need your contributions to solve these sorts of problems! Like incomplete data and such.
• Lia wrote on 2014-09-15 00:14
  Not sure what's wrong with playing fashionogi-style as the game has always had a large focus on fashion/style and character customization, or having a fashion-leaning player edit the wiki, as long as they don't exist only to troll clothing pages. Helpful content that pertains to the game (as opposed to trivia concerning Shakespeare, etc.) includes more than just combat information. There's also nothing stopping anyone else from updating the enchants list on the wiki I think. Just commented because I really fail to see how being fashionogi detracts from an editor's ability at all, or from their efforts that go into the wiki. From what I've seen, a lot of work on the wiki involves actual maintenance/clean up and moderation duty as well as the addition of new content.
• Mystickskye wrote on 2014-09-15 00:24

  Quote from ironwoman;1247358:

  If people can get info on stupid ass wings from foreign gachapons, they definitely have the ability to get info about enchants. It literally takes me 10 minutes (or less) to find unreleased enchants.
  
  Like, no offense to many editors, there are so many dumbass editors. This Nise Panda person in the thread Rydian mentioned in your quote box? A classic fashionogi. I can list a lot more. These people aren't the ones that will give out the most helpful information.

  Again I can't speak for other editors (for the most part I just clean up small "spills", give my opinion on certain things and such) but most of the information I hear about new things is handed to me. That's not to say that I can't google this but it's also not to say that I necessarily will. Contributors aren't obliged to do work and it's not like contributors are really put through workplace assessments. It's not about who does the most and best work (though if you do noticeably bad work that's another matter). If you make a useful contribution then that's great and thank you very much (not saying my contributions are super useful, they're mainly very minor in fact). If there is a contribution deemed questionable it requires that people speak up about it so the concern is known.
  
  When being a fashionogi is against the rules I'll be sure to tell the staff about Nise. Likewise for dumbass editors.
  
  P.S - If you know there's information out there and you think it belongs on the wiki nothing is stopping you from leaving a link or anything on the talk page so that someone else can format it for the wiki. We have wiki coding monkeys sorta.