Continuation of the Wiki Discussion

• Rydian wrote on 2014-09-15 08:36

  Quote from Mystickskye;1247344:

  You have very clearly misunderstood me and several others. We were not talking about future content in general and in fact people do work on it and are not discouraged from it (I have in fact in the past worked on it). We were very specifically talking about a page similar to the Patches page that would have similar notes except on content not yet in NA. In fact that page exists! It's right here.

  Here's the rundown of the situation I was involved in and replied to, complete with citations, in chronological order.
  
  1 - People noticed that the Patches page, which has the chronological list of Mabinogi updates, had a section dedicated to upcoming/unreleased content at the time. Somebody brought up the idea of splitting the info (that which had not hit NA yet) off onto a separate page to reduce clutter opposed to removing it from the wiki entirely.
  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Thread:Talk:Patches/Unreleased_Content
  

  Quote from Kapra:

  this thread is about proposal of creating an Unreleased Content section (or page). This would be a merge of the Skipped Content Section and any future updates (such as Treasure Hunter, Smart Content, the Drama of Iria 2)

  
  
  2 - Your response, the very first in that thread, was "No.", as in, literally, the only thing you said was...
  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Thread:Talk:Patches/Unreleased_Content/reply
  

  Quote from Mystickskye:

  No.

  
  
  3 - After a lot of arguing back and forth, Nise Panda presented a list of questions and asked people to answer them, about what should be done with the content on the Patches page that was not yet in NA. The original version of their post only included 1-4, they edited it to add number 5 afterwards.
  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Thread:Talk:Patches/Unreleased_Content/reply_%2848%29
  

  Quote from Nise Panda:

  Let's just get to the point.
  
  1. Skipped Content. If you want to get rid of it, say yes or no and post why. If you chose to get rid of it, content that has not been released in a patch that was suppose to, will be removed.
  
  2. Making a section or page for Unreleased Content/Foreign Content or keeping it the way it is, putting a tag above content that are not yet released. Chose whichever and explain why.
  
  3. Completely rid of content that is not yet released on NA and only add it once it comes out. Yes or no and why.
  4. Show all unreleased content. Yes/no and why.
  
  5. If we do have Foreign/Unreleased Content, should we stay exclusive to Korea only content or also include content from other servers such as JP? Yes if non-KR is okay. No if we should be KR-only (if at all).
  
  If you have any other issues or another option, post it and explain it. You can also just agree with another.

  
  
  4 - I responded, directly to their post, with my answers and thoughts. Number 5 was edited in as a response to the question post being edited (as mentioned above).
  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Thread:Talk:Patches/Unreleased_Content/reply_%2857%29
  

  Quote from Rydian:

  1 - Do not get rid of it. The purpose of a Wiki is to hold information regardless. NA doesn't make all it's content alone. It takes most of it's content from overseas, and overseas gets most of it first, so knowing what might come out eventually (and a rough chronological order) would be helpful. Skipped could easily go into a sub-page.
  
  2 - Make it a sub-page. The main page should only have content that applies to NA since it's an NA wiki and the page is a chronological release/update order list. However updates from other regions can come to NA even if unexpected, and being able to gather and format info on potentially upcoming updates is good, so having an official sub-page in order to keep it accessible seems best.
  
  3 - Do not get rid of them. It may not be in NA yet, but having pages for people to fill out what info we do know of means that when the updates hit NA people have a head-start on filling the pages with info, which benefits both the readers and contributers.
  
  4 - Yes, but on a sub-page. A wiki is designed to hold information, and while unreleased content may not directly apply to the NA version of Mabi, the unreleased content can hold insight into existing/upcoming NA content/changes and may reach NA eventually.
  
  EDIT: 5 - Yes, with the same reasoning as above. Non-KR content has less chance to get ported to NA, but less chance is not no chance, and I like data availability!

  
  
  5 - You responded directly to me, stating the things I claimed you stated in my original post here.
  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Thread:Talk:Patches/Unreleased_Content/reply_%2863%29
  In response to my number 1, you said...
  

  Quote from Mystickskye:

  Incorrect.

  
  In response to my number 4, you said...
  

  Quote from Mystickskye:

  False.

  
  
  6 - That ends the interaction that you and I had. After that came the interactions you had with other people that I quoted.
  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Thread:Talk:Patches/Unreleased_Content/reply_%28101%29
  

  Quote from Mystickskye:

  [...]I don't think we should have a Foreign Content/Skipped Content section at all.

  
  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Thread:Talk:Patches/Unreleased_Content/reply_%2868%29
  

  Quote from Mystickskye:

  [...]A future content section in the context of listing patch updates is qualitatively unhelpful and actually doesn't offer that much insight.[...]

  
  
  7 - After that discussion (about half a month afterwards), despite your opposition to the original suggestion, the Foreign Content page was created with the info split off of the Patches page.
  
  
  
  

  Quote from ironwoman;1247358:

  If people can get info on stupid ass wings from foreign gachapons, they definitely have the ability to get info about enchants. It literally takes me 10 minutes (or less) to find unreleased enchants.

  How do you define "info on"? If you mean the stats, people edit those when they care to because the stats almost never change from overseas and are easy to find mention of in various ways.
  
  However I have seen you complain about people not knowing or confirming drop locations for enchants in NA, which is why I made sure to mention that (in my earlier post) in regards to the Ninja update (IIRC one of the new enchants drops from Rundal, which was not obvious or known by most players as it's not mentioned in the patches, or thematically linked to the Ninja update at all).
  
  
  
  

  Quote from Kadalyn;1247360:

  One that's more stable, with practically no down time since the switch (the switch was after the major down time, in which Code et al attempted the switch to Mabinoger).

  I can back this, the wiki used to go down all the time a year or two ago. It's very rarely down now, and when it is down it's usually just a couple-of-minutes thing.
  
  

  Quote from Kadalyn;1247360:

  It's all about what's important to the contributor who does them. Though, out of this thread, I was thinking that maybe we could compile a list of data that is typically incomplete to go with our editing guides for new users? So it would list things like how much of the ego data is incomplete, and other things like that. There could even be some maps for like "when new skills are released, these are the pages that need to be updated" sort of thing. How does that sound?

  You have my support for this type of idea. I've seen other types of user-run projects have systems/lists that point out articles which are glaringly-bare and request info on them and this tends to get them attention they might not otherwise get.
  
  However, this should be separate from the already-existing wiki system for categorizing pages. Mediawiki declares "stub" articles as such by default based on their content length, whereas info that's missing or incomplete for this wiki would need to be pointed out by humans.
  
  If there's some easy place or function people can use to suggest/note pages that need updates and the list of pages that need attention was somewhere obvious, that'd probably go a ways in encouraging people to fill in missing data.
  
  
  
  

  Quote from Aubog007;1247372:

  I do say though, that Mabi's Wiki is incredibly detailed compared to other game's wikis. Like holy shit, the difference.

  Definitely. It could use some different organization that brings more info to more visible pages (for example the Puppetry category page has some basic info on using puppetry that needs to be more visible), but it's still levels above most other wikis.
• Mystickskye wrote on 2014-09-15 10:35

  Quote from Rydian;1247425:

  *giant text wall*

  I'm not sure what your point is other than restating things both you and I have said and proving me correct?
• ceilingcat wrote on 2014-09-15 11:01

  Quote from Rydian;1247425:

  A unnecessarily large wall of text

  
  
  Random lurker here, but I thought I'd point that you seem to be misinterpreting what Mystickskye has been saying the entire time. More specifically, "I don't think we should have a Foreign Content/Skipped Content section at all."
  
  The discussion was on the patch page, so I thought it would have been implied that everything said on that discussion page was in reference to only the patches page (completely ignoring the fact that the specific mention of the future/unreleased content section itself, and not to the entire wiki, was made in most of the quotes you posted of the discussion, save for the 1-word replies).
• Kadalyn wrote on 2014-09-15 14:03

  Quote from Rydian;1247425:

  ...
  You have my support for this type of idea. I've seen other types of user-run projects have systems/lists that point out articles which are glaringly-bare and request info on them and this tends to get them attention they might not otherwise get.
  
  However, this should be separate from the already-existing wiki system for categorizing pages. Mediawiki declares "stub" articles as such by default based on their content length, whereas info that's missing or incomplete for this wiki would need to be pointed out by humans.
  
  If there's some easy place or function people can use to suggest/note pages that need updates and the list of pages that need attention was somewhere obvious, that'd probably go a ways in encouraging people to fill in missing data.
  ...

  
  We do have a lot of things like these, see this, but it's not exactly helpful when it comes to drop locations or ego data or anything so long term. So I was thinking more something of an overview indicating, for instance, what research is long term, or how to handle game content updates, etc.
• Clarey wrote on 2014-09-15 14:28
  Lately I've noticed things have been...I don't know I guess the people who used to update it often are busy with school etc. I never was one to jump in and edit a ton but when I notice something small I try to contribute. Lately I notice the dailies are left a long time before getting updated.
• ironwoman wrote on 2014-09-15 14:38
  I'm not even mad/angry about Wiki editors or the Wiki in general. I just don't see it as a definite reliable source of information that it used to be way back.
  
  

  Quote from Hazeri;1247382:

  Different people, different priorities. I've been playing this game since it came out in NA, and not even once in all these years have I bothered with enchants, but I'm first in the line to check out what new clothes come out. Is not the "fashionogis" fault that you number crunchers don't test/post the fucking enchant info.
  
  Yes, it might be as easy as googling the enchants and passing them through google translate (Because that ended up so well for Treasure Hunter's skills...) but if my interest doesn't lie in enchanting why should I bother?

  
  
  I know people have different interests. The problem lies in the fact that the contents about these fashions get updated quickly, even for future contents, but many other things like enchants, skills, system changes, etc aren't as quick (or sometimes not even there). Having fashion updates is fine but it kinda becomes problematic when the site is taken over by fashionogis that ultimately fail to provide information about many other aspects of the game, there should be a balance where as many things possible should be getting updated.
  
  

  Quote from Hazeri;1247382:

  Then what exactly are you arguing for? this thread seems to be for people concerned with the state of the wiki, if its "whatevs" to you, what's the point of posting here?

  
  
  That itself is the problem. The Wiki shouldn't be a thing a person with a decent knowledge of the game should say "whatever" because of lack of some vital information or wrong information. This treasure hunter content was a good example of this. I already knew that you needed the talent to find treasure dungeons, but someone in the wiki wrote the wrong fact down, and no one bothered to change it either because 1. they already knew about the update like I did so they didn't need to check the wiki or 2. they're not as interested in figuring those stuff out. I simply expected that there would be someone who could catch the mistake if that were to happen, but apparently, I was wrong.
  
  The problem with this wiki is that it's not reliable enough and is missing few vital information to the extent that many people don't take it as a serious source of information. And even when some information is provided by someone, I personally want to say that the person is really suitable for writing these things. For example, these two guides are written by someone I know in game who also happens to be one of the bigger editors in Wiki: Lance Guide, Puppet guide. Notice any error? While the attempt is nice and all, I don't really want to recommend these guides to a newbie. It's lacking vital information. For example, what do you rank first? What are the itemization you'll need for this class? What are some of the nice reforges that you could take on the way? You can't say that the guides are outdated because last time it was edited was the March of this year, when everything I mentioned in the questions were still just as relevant. I really don't want to attack on people here, but the very person who wrote the guide is almost useless in combat aspects of Mabinogi if you've actually seen the person fight. So for the non-fashion content, we have these kind of people editing. This should pretty much give you an idea of the quality of non-fashion and non-storyline contents.
  
  

  Quote from Clarey;1247472:

  Lately I notice the dailies are left a long time before getting updated.

  
  
  As for the dailies updates, here's a useful link that the many editors could use: What's that? Oh, just a pattern of daily missions that y'all could use and I'm sure wiki editors can put the pattern in the Wiki to update automatically. It's not like this is the first time I mentioned this link.
• Oberynn wrote on 2014-09-15 14:49

  Quote from ironwoman;1247475:

  As for the dailies updates, here's a useful link that the many editors could use: What's that? Oh, just a pattern of daily missions that y'all could use and I'm sure wiki editors can put the pattern in the Wiki to update automatically. It's not like this is the first time I mentioned this link.

  
  
  Oh my god this.
  I've always wondered why NA mabi wiki does things the hard way and update dailies manually.
  
  Even mabinoger figured out how to do it automatically years ago (and that page still works fine to this day).
• Mystickskye wrote on 2014-09-15 14:53

  Quote from ironwoman;1247475:

  The problem with this wiki is that it's not reliable enough

  Debatable given how many people seem to rely on it and the amount of complaints made when it goes down even for a small amount of time.
  
  That and comparing subjective contributions to objective contributions is kinda lol.

  Quote from Oberynn;1247476:

  Oh my god this.
  I've always wondered why NA mabi wiki does things the hard way and update dailies manually.
  
  Even mabinoger figured out how to do it automatically years ago (and that page still works fine to this day).

  You're welcome to make the contribution yourself if you know how.

  Quote from Clarey;1247472:

  Lately I've noticed things have been...I don't know I guess the people who used to update it often are busy with school etc. I never was one to jump in and edit a ton but when I notice something small I try to contribute. Lately I notice the dailies are left a long time before getting updated.

  It's unfortunate but there are very few dedicated editors, even within the wiki community many people are... "opportunistic" editors that just deal with issues as they find them. It's not ideal.
• Slayerj wrote on 2014-09-15 15:02

  Quote from Zekkii;1247424:

  If we made a new wiki there's no guarantee it wouldn't end up similarly to MWW like Osay pointed out in the first few pages. I won't say that users of Mabination aren't capable, but given the breadth and age of the game, I doubt we'd have the drive. There's countless other significant ways in which Mabination users contribute incomparable to editing wikis.

  
  
  Why not let a select few mods be able to edit it, and have a part of the forums for proving things and discussion?
• Jake wrote on 2014-09-15 15:13

  Quote from ceilingcat;1247440:

  Random lurker here, but I thought I'd point that you seem to be misinterpreting what Mystickskye has been saying the entire time. More specifically, "I don't think we should have a Foreign Content/Skipped Content section at all."
  
  The discussion was on the patch page, so I thought it would have been implied that everything said on that discussion page was in reference to only the patches page (completely ignoring the fact that the specific mention of the future/unreleased content section itself, and not to the entire wiki, was made in most of the quotes you posted of the discussion, save for the 1-word replies).

  
  
  Random question here. I surely wonder if you are the ceilingcat from maplestory LOL
• ceilingcat wrote on 2014-09-15 15:21

  Quote from Jake;1247479:

  Random question here. I surely wonder if you are the ceilingcat from maplestory LOL

  
  
  No, I am not lol.
  
  

  Quote from Slayerj;1247478:

  Why not let a select few mods be able to edit it, and have a part of the forums for proving things and discussion?

  
  
  That...wouldn't be a wiki then.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2014-09-15 17:47

  Quote from ironwoman;1247475:

  That itself is the problem. The Wiki shouldn't be a thing a person with a decent knowledge of the game should say "whatever" because of lack of some vital information or wrong information. This treasure hunter content was a good example of this. I already knew that you needed the talent to find treasure dungeons, but someone in the wiki wrote the wrong fact down, and no one bothered to change it either because 1. they already knew about the update like I did so they didn't need to check the wiki or 2. they're not as interested in figuring those stuff out. I simply expected that there would be someone who could catch the mistake if that were to happen, but apparently, I was wrong.
  
  The problem with this wiki is that it's not reliable enough and is missing few vital information to the extent that many people don't take it as a serious source of information. And even when some information is provided by someone, I personally want to say that the person is really suitable for writing these things. For example, these two guides are written by someone I know in game who also happens to be one of the bigger editors in Wiki: Lance Guide, Puppet guide. Notice any error? While the attempt is nice and all, I don't really want to recommend these guides to a newbie. It's lacking vital information. For example, what do you rank first? What are the itemization you'll need for this class? What are some of the nice reforges that you could take on the way? You can't say that the guides are outdated because last time it was edited was the March of this year, when everything I mentioned in the questions were still just as relevant. I really don't want to attack on people here, but the very person who wrote the guide is almost useless in combat aspects of Mabinogi if you've actually seen the person fight. So for the non-fashion content, we have these kind of people editing. This should pretty much give you an idea of the quality of non-fashion and non-storyline contents.

  
  
  I don't understand why everyone keeps blaming wiki for that and not the source they pulled it from. Why is it always wiki having to take the fall? Before Treasure Hunter came out in NA wiki had no way of confirming it themselves.
  
  Those guides were meant to be general information. She told me that the weapons were excluded due to people having many different preferences.
  
  
  When people claim wiki to be at fault, it concerns me. I've been blamed a couple of times for someone else's edits, and one person said it was my fault for not verifying it (all I did was move someone else's false generation spoilerish information from trivia to hidden spoiler boxes), which I had no ability to do; I'm not some false informant's shield, and neither is the wiki.
• Lia wrote on 2014-09-15 18:44

  Quote from ironwoman;1247475:

  I really don't want to attack on people here, but the very person who wrote the guide is almost useless in combat aspects of Mabinogi if you've actually seen the person fight. So for the non-fashion content, we have these kind of people editing. This should pretty much give you an idea of the quality of non-fashion and non-storyline contents.

  
  
  Your standards are elitist. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but you're faulting editors who contribute their time and effort at will for not devoting their in-game focus to the number crunching aspects of Mabi. You want information that number crunchers have to offer? Perhaps such as yourself? Then there's nothing stopping you from (as cliche as this is) being the change that you want to see, save for some preconceived notion of what wiki admins may or may not have done ages past/what the wiki may or may not have been before.
  
  It's completely illogical to argue against the quality of the wiki because people who devote their time to editing it aren't the editors you would like. The fault naturally lies with the people who are able to provide such content (those who obsess over foreign updates and stat munchkining) but don't update the wiki, and instead expect everyone else to.
• Kingofrunes wrote on 2014-09-15 18:52
  As much as I would love to post Foreign Content on the wiki, I have just enough energy to compile that info and post it Mabination. I don't feel like messing around with the wiki templates and formatting and all that to post it there. Plus most info I dig up usually isn't 100% accurate and I'm afraid to put that on the wiki.
  
  I leave that stuff up to Kapra but he doesn't really care about Mabinogi as much these days to do something like that. So I guess the best I can do is offer that info here and hope someone here cares enough to put it there somewhere.
• Sinned wrote on 2014-09-15 19:18

  Quote from ironwoman;1247475:

  I'm not even mad/angry about Wiki editors or the Wiki in general. I just don't see it as a definite reliable source of information that it used to be way back.

  
  You're welcome to assist in making it a reliable source otherwise I don't see why you're complaining. If you see it as unreliable and then I see no reason for you to use it.
  
  
  

  Quote from ironwoman;1247475:

  
  I know people have different interests. The problem lies in the fact that the contents about these fashions get updated quickly, even for future contents, but many other things like enchants, skills, system changes, etc aren't as quick (or sometimes not even there). Having fashion updates is fine but it kinda becomes problematic when the site is taken over by fashionogis that ultimately fail to provide information about many other aspects of the game, there should be a balance where as many things possible should be getting updated.

  
  But the thing is that you can't force non-fashiongi players to update. It may so happens that the wiki is more oftenly updated by fashion obsessed people.
  Simply telling them to update on things they don't care about may as well tell them to not update at all simply because they're not interested in those things. At that point, nobody wins. Therefore, once again, if you want to see non-fashion updates, contribute. If you're beyond the scope of what the wiki can offer with no intention to help, then I don't see why you bother.
  
  

  
  That itself is the problem. The Wiki shouldn't be a thing a person with a decent knowledge of the game should say "whatever" because of lack of some vital information or wrong information. This treasure hunter content was a good example of this. I already knew that you needed the talent to find treasure dungeons, but someone in the wiki wrote the wrong fact down, and no one bothered to change it either because 1. they already knew about the update like I did so they didn't need to check the wiki or 2. they're not as interested in figuring those stuff out. I simply expected that there would be someone who could catch the mistake if that were to happen, but apparently, I was wrong.
  

  
  But who was to know that it was wrong information. You somehow knew but didn't tell anybody. People in mabination didn't know until it was rectified despite the fact that people actively update on foreign information. You can't expect anybody who edits to wiki to know what you somehow knew but almost nobody else did.
  
  

  
  The problem with this wiki is that it's not reliable enough and is missing few vital information to the extent that many people don't take it as a serious source of information. And even when some information is provided by someone, I personally want to say that the person is really suitable for writing these things. For example, these two guides are written by someone I know in game who also happens to be one of the bigger editors in Wiki: Lance Guide, Puppet guide. Notice any error? While the attempt is nice and all, I don't really want to recommend these guides to a newbie. It's lacking vital information. For example, what do you rank first? What are the itemization you'll need for this class? What are some of the nice reforges that you could take on the way? You can't say that the guides are outdated because last time it was edited was the March of this year, when everything I mentioned in the questions were still just as relevant. I really don't want to attack on people here, but the very person who wrote the guide is almost useless in combat aspects of Mabinogi if you've actually seen the person fight. So for the non-fashion content, we have these kind of people editing. This should pretty much give you an idea of the quality of non-fashion and non-storyline contents.
  

  
  With your example, it clearly states 101, which is basically... the basics. Reforges are more for end game who want to min-max, items are more mid-game when you have enough damage to hold your own. But for giving you a clear overview of a set of skills, they do their jobs to help anybody on their way.
  As much as I feel that what you're saying is hypocritical (not wanting to attack someone but calling them useless), Mabinogi combat is no longer as complex as it used to be where people had to develop tactics to survive (N+1, Magic counter, Zero shot, etc.) so saying that someone is useless in combat in an era where you can spam 2-3 skills to kill everything doesn't really amount to much.
  
  And if you're unhappy with someone's personal contributions on their USER page, which isn't even a very noticeable page (because most users aren't going to visit other people's user pages for information unless directed), then I don't know what to say other than learn to humble yourself because you're complaining something that isn't even a direct contribution to a wiki.
  
  

  
  As for the dailies updates, here's a useful link that the many editors could use: What's that? Oh, just a pattern of daily missions that y'all could use and I'm sure wiki editors can put the pattern in the Wiki to update automatically. It's not like this is the first time I mentioned this link.

  
  
  If you know how to properly code that in, then all the more power to you. But as far as my edits go, I copy templates and rewrite information so that they're relevant to whatever I'm working on. I'm sure that's how many people work on these things since we're given the instruments we need to simply fill out the blanks. The ones who are more likelier to know advanced wiki techniques... have most likely quit as far as my knowledge goes.
  
  
  ---
  Don't get me wrong, I love people who contribute. I know it's hard to keep everything in place due to how expansive Mabinogi has grown which is why I don't blame anybody for not contributing because (1) they already have all the information they would ever need, (2) can't find anything they can contribute to, or (3) if they simply don't have the resources to contribute.
  But for god sakes, don't complain if you have no legitimate right to.