Continuation of the Wiki Discussion

• ironwoman wrote on 2014-09-15 23:16

  Quote from Darkboy132;1247560:

  Please, ironwoman, tell us how many NA players actually play Korean servers, EXCLUDING Mabination's KR test team.

  
  
  I can't give you exact numbers but I can tell you there were enough to provide such information needed. Used to be or still is.
  
  

  Quote from Sinned;1247551:

  You mean like how you supposedly knew that only Treasure Hunter could access Treasure Dungeon while almost every other use thought it was at r6 until a few days ago?

  
  
  Correct. I never said I wasn't at fault, I could have edited the page too.
  
  

  Quote from Sinned;1247551:

  And need I repeat myself that if you don't need it then don't complain about it because it's irrelevant to you. The user base that does edit, will do as such to ensure the information is correct despite their limited abilities.

  
  
  Except I wasn't complaining. Stating problems =/= complaining.
  I'm already aware that the user base does edit and does so to the best of "their limited abilities". One of the problems lie in that those that do have the better knowledge don't edit/upload information due to many different reasons.
  
  

  Quote from Sinned;1247551:

  What if there are maybe... 1:10 editors who mainly don't care about fashion? I don't fashion, I only edit what I see necessary which isn't much because
  1) I don't spend NX
  2) I stopped caring about finding enchants
  3) The only reforges I work with are the ones I get for free
  
  I'm almost 4k total, playing on and off since beta. What is currently on Wiki is all I need. That's just me using myself as an example. But in all seriousness, I don't pay attention enough to the wiki to know the true ratio, but maybe there lies some correlation between the fact that fashion gets updated ASAP because there are more users willing to work on the wiki for fashion than for combat.

  
  
  Spot on. That's what I was saying. More fashionogis than those that aren't. Hence the better information about fashion.
  
  

  Quote from Sinned;1247551:

  WHY?
  You have no legitimate reason to care about the wiki being updated. If you do then please fill me in because it appears you're well off enough to figure out most of it and you're complaining about things without giving a real solution.

  
  
  I don't have personal reasons. However, if people want to search certain information and can't find them, it'd be disappointing, no? That's the case with Ninja enchants right now. If I spoke Japanese, I'd be willing to help and upload the enchants, but sadly, I cannot. I've been uploading the enchants for pretty recent stuff before, like lord enchants, fighter enchants, etc.
  
  

  Quote from Sinned;1247551:

  Whhhhhhattttttttttt?
  You do realize that Mabination is the only place where there's actually an established KR test group right?
  
  Never in all my years have I heard of a NA player who actually plays on the Korean servers. At most it's a test server which I have partook in, and I wouldn't be surprised if others did, btu that was years ago when Mabinogi still had it's charm. Now it's just a giant clusterfuck of weird things that keep changing directions every 2 years that may have been the reason why Mabidata stopped updating too. Otherwise, trying to load windmill at 400+ ping? Good luck trying to actually main that server.

  
  
  Well then, this will come to you as a surprise, but there are NA players that actually play on the KR servers. In fact, few wiki editors don't even hail from NA grounds. Yes, most play on the test server, but there are also few that play on the main servers as well. Also, they don't necessarily have to main KR servers to provide info.
  
  

  Quote from Lia;1247555:

  If you can point out how we're not on the same page I'll work with you on it. This is an open discussion about wiki matters/grievances so I don't see a reason to make it private.
  
  
  Discussion would be a lot easier if along with complaining solutions could be offered as well. My solution? I hope that the people who do have extensive non-fashion knowledge of the game can find the time to contribute to the wiki. I think that would make everyone happy, and everyone's contributions would be valued. As it is, a lot of the complaining isn't constructive at all, which is why I feel there's no point to complaining even if one does have a "right" to say their opinion.

  
  
  Because you're misunderstanding me on why I say the editors are at fault as well. We're not gonna get much from there without complete understanding of each other.
  
  Even though I agree that the people that do have the knowledge of the game should contribute more, Equivalent and Zekkii stated the problems I was gonna say.
  
  Also, I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but I am not complaining. I'm merely stating problems, there's a difference.
  
  I believe I have said everything I need to for this thread, that's all.
• Zekkii wrote on 2014-09-15 23:18

  Quote from ceilingcat;1247574:

  imgur.com/wCbm6ih
  Yes, because it was the wiki staff who escalated the situation and made it very aggravating...
  (for those interested, that was the discussion page on the flame burst page)
  
  If a formula gets reverted, then it's probably either 1. incorrect, 2. an equivalent formula to the one that's being replaced.
  
  As for the whole plagiarism "issue"...you've never gone to a lot of wikis have you...

  
  Please refrain from attempting to harass me. I'll explain for those who don't understand:
  
  1. I created a page for Flameburst redirecting towards the Flame Burst skill and it was deleted by a moderator without a word
  2. I started a discussion as to why it would be a good idea, and part-way down I used examples of other redirects currently on the wiki of similar examples
  3. The moderators proceeded to investigate my examples and instead of providing further argument, they deleted them all
  4. At this point I was pissed and quit the wiki
  5. Someone rationally reached out to both parties and I attempted to make a fix, but the wiki didn't support it and no one bothered to help so I left
  
  This is a perfect example of why I refuse to contribute to the wiki again, along with other contributions which were removed or incorrectly changes, as well as work stolen from me. I do hope you didn't just make this new Mabination account to harass me.
• ceilingcat wrote on 2014-09-15 23:39

  Quote from Zekkii;1247578:

  Please refrain from attempting to harass me. I'll explain for those who don't understand:
  
  3. The moderators proceeded to investigate my examples and instead of providing further argument, they deleted them all
  4. At this point I was pissed and quit the wiki
  
  This is a perfect example of why I refuse to contribute to the wiki again, along with other contributions which were removed or incorrectly changes, as well as work stolen from me. I do hope you didn't just make this new Mabination account to harass me.

  
  So you got mad, threw a tantrum, and now take shots at the wiki and its staff at every chance you get. You could have asked for further clarification, but chose not to and mope about it. To top it all off, despite the way you've talked about the wiki in this thread, as soon as someone posts an image that essentially shows the hypocrisy in your previous statements, you call harassment.
  
  I made this account to voice my opinion on the matter, which I have. Had I made this account to harass you, I would have done so starting from my first post. So in case you didn't get that: No, I didn't create this account just to harass you. Get over yourself.
  
  EDIT: Almost forgot...about that plagiarism crap...
  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Mabinogi_World_Wiki:Copyrights
  and also, if you go to any page and hit edit, the following message is displayed at the bottom near where you hit save:
  "If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here."
• Zekkii wrote on 2014-09-15 23:51

  Quote from ceilingcat;1247584:

  So you got mad, threw a tantrum, and now take shots at the wiki and its staff at every chance you get. You could have asked for further clarification, but chose not to and mope about it. To top it all off, despite the way you've talked about the wiki in this thread, as soon as someone posts an image that essentially shows the hypocrisy in your previous statements, you call harassment.
  
  I made this account to voice my opinion on the matter, which I have. Had I made this account to harass you, I would have done so starting from my first post. So in case you didn't get that: No, I didn't create this account just to harass you. Get over yourself.

  
  You can keep accusing me all you want, but the only thing I'm guilty of is heavy sarcasm after being instigated. Now please refrain from insulting me, although it certainly doesn't hurt my point.
• Osayidan wrote on 2014-09-15 23:52
  Keep the discussion in this thread about the wiki, anything constructive or useful or about issues going on. Don't bring personal grudges or drama into it.
• LikeIsaidPotato wrote on 2014-09-16 00:16

  Quote from ironwoman;1247295:

  Another problem with wiki: majority of the editors seem to be concerned about fashion, not much other in game things.
  
  I mean, fashion is fine. But it's a problem when other things get neglected.
  
  Fighter enchants and many of the then-upcoming-enchants were problems. No one bothered to upload them except me. Also templates are struggling.
  
  And I'm sure most people don't know future content, most people only have a general idea that something is coming out, but not every single detail known to man kind.
  
  There are also many wiki editors that I've seen in game that I feel are not suited to provide information, but that's just me.

  
  
  
  To be fair, for the average editor or any new editor. It's easier to copy paste an item information or take images.
  
  And I'm sure most people don't know the full details of what's coming out, general ideas maybe, but not every single thing that will pop out.
  
  
  

  Quote from Bunny;1247269:

  [FONT="Arial"]What irritates me is when people don't put everything in alphabetical order for reward lists. Like gachapon crap.
  
  Have to fix those way too often, but oh well![/FONT]

  
  
  I am guilty of this.
  
  

  Quote from ironwoman;1247577:

  I can't give you exact numbers but I can tell you there were enough to provide such information needed. Used to be or still is.

  
  
  Used to be, most likely. Most of the current editors don't play foreign servers, as far as I know. I know one in the IRC chat, but he doesn't really tell us every single detail known to man kind.
• Sinned wrote on 2014-09-16 00:16

  Quote from Zekkii;1247578:

  Please refrain from attempting to harass me. I'll explain for those who don't understand:
  
  1. I created a page for Flameburst redirecting towards the Flame Burst skill and it was deleted by a moderator without a word
  2. I started a discussion as to why it would be a good idea, and part-way down I used examples of other redirects currently on the wiki of similar examples
  3. The moderators proceeded to investigate my examples and instead of providing further argument, they deleted them all
  4. At this point I was pissed and quit the wiki
  5. Someone rationally reached out to both parties and I attempted to make a fix, but the wiki didn't support it and no one bothered to help so I left
  
  This is a perfect example of why I refuse to contribute to the wiki again, along with other contributions which were removed or incorrectly changes, as well as work stolen from me. I do hope you didn't just make this new Mabination account to harass me.

  
  
  She ain't harassing you. At least not in the English language she isn't.
  
  1. Okay fine, I get it. Sudden deletion of something you did that you think isn't a bad idea. Fine, you did the right thing by starting a discussion.
  Now, things get tricky. I can't tell between the logs what happened first, second, third, etc in regards to things unseen in the conversation.
  
  However, you can't say that wiki didn't support it if the software itself just doesn't work that way. Blargle said he'd try, and recalling from memory of what I read, the wiki coding doesn't allow pages to not be searched.
  
  Personally, it looks like you were upset and blinded in judgment just because something didn't occur in the manner you believe best.
  As far as removed or incorrectly changed, nobody in the wiki has control over the thousands of people editting at once to make sure that it's correct all the time. I've had a revert war with someone way back because they didn't trust information on Nexon's website since they thought the company that published a region exclusive system would make a mistake in notifying the players.
  
  However, that shouldn't deter someone as long as they remain level-headed as any professional would in less than favorable situations. I get that shit happens, and sometimes you lose your cool, but once you regain your ability to be rational, to realize that one issue shouldn't deter you from doing what you think is right.
  
  As far as "work stolen" goes, I don't quite see the issue of utilizing information that is published to help build a database. Nobody is profiting, most work in the wiki is done anonymously. You shouldn't take a page from Hal Jordon and do things such as "I want to impress you. Most of what I do is about trying to impress people." (Justice League vol 2 ch4) In fact, the only thing that Wikipedia cites are direct evidence from another source. Otherwise every other Wikia or database is done purely anonymously, not to get credit, but to contribute and know that you helped even though nobody else knows.
  
  And if you think I'm harassing you. I am not. I just wantto be clear about this. I am not, nor have I attempted to harass you. If it what I said offends you, maybe you should come sit down with me and drink some tea. It's good tea.
  ======================================================
  

  Quote from ironwoman;1247577:

  I can't give you exact numbers but I can tell you there were enough to provide such information needed. Used to be or still is.
  
  Well then, this will come to you as a surprise, but there are NA players that actually play on the KR servers. In fact, few wiki editors don't even hail from NA grounds. Yes, most play on the test server, but there are also few that play on the main servers as well. Also, they don't necessarily have to main KR servers to provide info.
  

  
  
  I feel like "used to be" should be the key term here only because KR Nexon has gone on foreign ban sprees before (happened like 3 times with KR Dragon Nest I think?), the fact that anybody would still actively play this game after, what 8 years(?) is almost entirely nobody. Not to mention who's to say any of them WANT to update the wiki when they have their korean sources?
  
  I'm going to ask for some users who play the KR server. Chances are if any exist, they're inactive, but I'm looking for names here so I can look over their history. Because I find it hard to believe anybody who play Mabinogi like WoW and stick around for years. Few exist, but chances are these people are doing their own things instead of updating an online database.
  
  And while you don't HAVE to play the main server, be aware that things can get changed before they go official. Not to mention there is very little motivation to play when you're hindered by several seconds in a game where you require relatively exact inputs to not die, over and over. It doesn't take long for anybody to rage quit. Which is why it's great that Nation has KR Test team,, at this point, they're all the information we can pull because if there is a KR player on the wiki, they obviously don't bother with (or as much with) the wiki anymore.
  
  

  Correct. I never said I wasn't at fault, I could have edited the page too.

  
  But you didn't and nobody knew until it was revealed to be a mistranslation, so that should be the least of your problems.
  
  

  One of the problems lie in that those that do have the better knowledge don't edit/upload information due to many different reasons.

  
  And how do you propose that this be changed? People who don't care, still won't care. And our level of information won't change.
  
  

  More fashionogis than those that aren't. Hence the better information about fashion.

  
  How do you propose to get people to edit who aren't fashion oriented? If nobody is willing, then well... see above. That 1 person out of 10 who doesn't do fashion isn't going to catch up in terms of information. But what if it's just going to be that 1 person. Unless you join in or get somebody else to help, then it's going to remain that one person.
  
  

  Because you're misunderstanding me on why I say the editors are at fault as well.

  
  It's the same page as Lia but differing thoughts. The editors only edit what they want to edit.
  I might as well be an editor because I edit on average three times a year.
  It's not the fault of any editor if they're not interested in doing something for information. They're just normal players who help contribute when they can.
  
  Yes, there are those who go out and test things for the sole purpose of information gathering. But those don't make up the majority, not to mention there are things that almost nobody is willing to test... ever. Such as throwing money at reforges.
  =======================================
  Edit: Seeing the next post. It barelyyyyyyy constitutes harassment just by using "get over yourself." I can see why someone sees it as harassment, buuuuuuutttttt not really.
• ceilingcat wrote on 2014-09-16 00:17

  Quote from Zekkii;1247565:

  Everyone I talked to either doesn't want to put in the effort or was aggravated or impaired by wiki staff. -snipsnip- Professional moderation is important for and by staff and players.

  
  You mean this point? If you think what I said earlier is actually helping your point, then there's nothing more I can really say on the matter.
  
  

  Quote from Osayidan;1247588:

  Keep the discussion in this thread about the wiki, anything constructive or useful or about issues going on. Don't bring personal grudges or drama into it.

  
  Fair enough, but it wouldn't be too far from the truth to say that some people are mainly posting due to having a grudge against the wiki.
• Osayidan wrote on 2014-09-16 00:54

  Quote from ceilingcat;1247592:

  Fair enough, but it wouldn't be too far from the truth to say that some people are mainly posting due to having a grudge against the wiki.

  
  
  I do as well, but instead of angrily posting about it I posted the type of situation I found to be a problem and left it at that (somewhere in the first pages of this thread). I'm personally never going to edit a wiki again (mabi or any others) but if this thread can help those who manage the wiki to avoid the problems these people are talking about I want them to be able to read the thread without all the drama.
• ceilingcat wrote on 2014-09-16 01:09

  Quote from Osayidan;1247602:

  I do as well, but instead of angrily posting about it I posted the type of situation I found to be a problem and left it at that (somewhere in the first pages of this thread).

  
  Oh, I probably should have been more clear then. My comment was more towards the ones who hold a grudge with the wiki and decided to word their opinions in such a way that was meant to elicit negative opinions. Nothing wrong with disliking something.
• Bunny wrote on 2014-09-16 02:40
  [FONT="Arial"]Alright, you guys seriously need to tone it down or else there will be a lock soon.
  
  Focus on the facts rather than insulting others (this includes indirect insults as well.)
  
  This should be a healthy discussion, not a shit storm where you guys post your personal grudges.
  If you think someone is wrong, kindly correct them in a civilized manner that doesn't involve insulting them indirectly.
  
  That is all.
  
  For those of you who started PMing rather than creating a bigger mess here, thank you. I appreciate that.[/FONT]
• Mystickskye wrote on 2014-09-16 02:52

  Quote from Zekkii;1247578:

  Please refrain from attempting to harass me. I'll explain for those who don't understand:
  
  1. I created a page for Flameburst redirecting towards the Flame Burst skill and it was deleted by a moderator without a word
  2. I started a discussion as to why it would be a good idea, and part-way down I used examples of other redirects currently on the wiki of similar examples
  3. The moderators proceeded to investigate my examples and instead of providing further argument, they deleted them all
  4. At this point I was pissed and quit the wiki
  5. Someone rationally reached out to both parties and I attempted to make a fix, but the wiki didn't support it and no one bothered to help so I left
  
  This is a perfect example of why I refuse to contribute to the wiki again, along with other contributions which were removed or incorrectly changes, as well as work stolen from me. I do hope you didn't just make this new Mabination account to harass me.

  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Talk:Flameburst
  You got two polite replies explaining why these sorts of redirects weren't in the interest of the wiki. Blargel tried investigating your fix and found that it didn't seem possible.

  Quote from Zekkii;1247565:

  Everyone I talked to either doesn't want to put in the effort or was aggravated or impaired by wiki staff. I know I'm not going to fight through a wall of editors to update formulas only to have them reversed by someone soon after. Some players were even banned for rather frivolous reasons, expecting them to edit is hardly lucid. Professional moderation is important for and by staff and players.

  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/index.php?title=Special:BlockList&dir=prev&offset=20121103214126&limit=250&wpTarget=
  The ban list would seem to disagree with you. If someone has in fact been banned for frivolous reasons then by all means let us know because that's not right.

  Quote from Rydian;1247514:

  Unless I've suffered head trauma in the past few days and suddenly don't know the meaning of things like "no" and "removed" and "removed from the wiki entirely" and "rather not have other server content here"...

  Again, in context this was only ever talking solely about the one specific page. This was not referring to any/all non-current content like you've said in earlier posts. I've already explained why I took that stance and explained why I I said your statements 1 and 4 were incorrect.
  
  If you want to continue with your apparent misunderstood grudge then I'll happily do so through PM.

  Quote from ironwoman;1247577:

  Except I wasn't complaining. Stating problems =/= complaining.

  [Image: http://puu.sh/bAUGP/5b90e427af.png]

  
  Actually it seems they are? There's a school of thought that stating problems or complaining without proposing a solution is essentially whining though that's debatable. I don't expect everyone to be able to come up with a solution.
• Rydian wrote on 2014-09-16 04:23

  Quote from Lia;1247516:

  nd you've given them no incentive to continue the conversation

  Would you prefer that I say something in a blunt and accusatory tone, so there's a reason for them to actually try to explain themselves?
  
  The semantics was because I'm having difficulty believing that they're saying "I said yes, I like this" in the thread when I'm quoting nothing but them saying "no" and opposing it, followed by the person they opposed getting permission from somebody else to do the changes themselves half a month later.
  
  (Also the reason for my second clarification, to ceilingcat, was because ceilingcat seemed to believe that the conversation happened at a different point in time than it happened, and that it was about a different proposition... thus me including timestamps and all that junk.)
• Kadalyn wrote on 2014-09-16 04:42

  Quote from Rydian;1247514:

  ...
  One issue there is that there's too many pages that cannot be reasonably expanded...

  
  Ah, I agree, these should be relegated to some sort of NeedsUnupdateableData category.
  
  

  Quote from Rydian;1247514:

  ...Something so users and staff can manually mark a page as...

  
  This is literally what categories are, though, so I don't see any need to reinvent the wheel, but rather restrategize our categorization, perhaps.
  
  

  Quote from Zekkii;1247565:

  ...I'm not going to fight through a wall of editors to update formulas only to have them reversed by someone soon after...Professional moderation is important for and by staff and players.

  
  I take professionalism very seriously, and if anyone under my watch isn't, it can end in some harsh consequences, as it has for some already. That said, I don't know of this specific incident, so I can't exactly comment on it effectively. Any reversion done by staff is done in serious consideration, though. If it was done by other members, I can't exactly speak for them.
  
  

  Quote from Zekkii;1247565:

  There's also issues of plagiarism...it's often one of the main sources for misinformation due to mistranslations, misconceptions, and simply referencing incorrect materials. Even if the user allows it without citation, then the wiki is liable if the information is wrong.

  
  Plagiarism is actually against the policy. If people take information from a published source, they're supposed to cite it unless that source breaks Nexon's code of conduct in which case we can't link to it. So sadly, that excludes sites like mabidata. The best case scenario, however, is for the original author to post the information onto the wiki himself. It's perfectly okay to dump unformatted information on a page and let someone else clean it up if you are really unsure of how to organize it. Of course, do your best! You can always ask for help on the talk page or IRC; people are glad to do so.
  
  

  Quote from Zekkii;1247578:

  ...
  1. I created a page for Flameburst redirecting towards the Flame Burst skill and it was deleted by a moderator[snip]This is a perfect example of why I refuse to contribute to the wiki again...

  
  I did investigate this case however, and in my opinion Blargel did handle this very tactfully. These sorts of title redirects (ones of spacing and case changes) aren't encouraged because they aren't necessary. I'm sorry it hurt you as much as it did, though, truly! I would really hope that this one experience wouldn't drive you away completely and with such dour grievances as it's seemed to. If I may, I'd say that, if you feel that an experience like this one was so egregious that you feel like you need to leave and never come back, for whatever reason, please come to me. I'm here to help in all aspects of your wiki experience, including dealing with issues between members and staff, or dealing with deficiencies in appropriate ways.
  
  That said, due to this discussion, and the real need from you and others for redirects for titles differing by space, I will talk to saiyr about our options for automatically redirecting mistyped names to pages of the same name, with only spacing differences. For instance, Flameburst -> Flame Burst, Icebolt -> Ice Bolt, and so forth. Manual redirects really aren't the optimal way to handle this, and I'm sure that automated solutions exist. We'll look into it for you, and see if we can't solve this.
  
  

  Quote from ironwoman:

  ...

  
  From everything I've read from your postings, it seems that the information that you want to be on the wiki is easy for you to get, so if you indeed have information that you won't contribute in order to amend this lack of non-fashion information, is there anything that the wiki can do to alleviate any hindrances in your contributing this information? We are working towards easing templates, but it won't be released for a while. Other than that, is there anything we can do? Because frankly, if not, your call for contributors of information you could give is nonconstructive to this thread.
  
  

  Quote from everyone going at ironwoman:

  ...

  
  Really, he inexplicitely included himself in those he blames now, there's no need to continue. I'm sure that's all you wanted, was you point out the supposed irony.
  
  

  Quote from Rydian & Mystickskye:

  ...

  
  This is how I'm reading this conversation:
  <Rydian> But you said you hate foreign content
  <Mystickskye> No I said I didn't want it on that page
  <Rydian> But you said you hate it
  <Mystickskye> Only on that page
  <Rydian> But [examples]
  <Mystickskye> Only relevant to that page
  <Rydian> Just admit you hate it
  While both of you are pulling your hair in frustration thinking the other party is misunderstanding. Bluntly; Rydian is overscoping his claims and Mystickskye is just bad at being concise, and both things are leading to misunderstandings of the other side's state of opinion on the conversation. I recommend a truce and a reevaluation, because it really is getting redundant for the rest of us. Neither of you are dense individuals, I'm sure you can come to an understanding when you can learn to speak the other's language.
  
  PS: I lurk a lot, I'm actually intimately familiar with both of you. [creeping intensifies]
• Mystickskye wrote on 2014-09-16 04:58
  So I wanted to see if I could consolidate the issues people have with the wiki so far:
  
  It's sometimes/often inaccurate.
  Noted and well acknowledged. I will point out that if you see something inaccurate then please let us know.
  
  It's sometimes slow with content.
  Noted and acknowledged. Similar to the first if you think you can help then by all means do.
  
  The wiki community has enough KR players to know the info well enough that errors shouldn't be made
  Actually I don't think anyone that actively contributes plays KR that much if at all?
  
  Some people don't work hard enough
  Arguably people don't have to work at all? For the most part everyone is welcome to contribute and no one is obliged to.
  
  Lists not in alphabetical order
  It drives me nuts too. Will make a point of this.
  
  Fashionogi-police with their image replacements/reverts
  Yeah there was a shit load of drama to do with this. There is an image policy though and now all image replacements are to be made with this in mind.
  
  Too many fashionogis
  Specifically in that other content is neglected. Unfortunate but not something we can really solve beyond asking others to help? If people have a reasonable solution then I'm all ears.
  
  Too many idiots
  Subjective but given that people don't constantly make bad contributions to the actual articles there's no rule against this.
  
  Some editors aren't suited to make contributions
  If they're not constantly making bad contributions to the actual articles then there's no real argument here? The only real example I see compares user made guides to construction/formatting of things like skill pages? User guides aren't stated as law (I'm sure that's the case here too) and if they're not good then they likely won't get used compared to other guides (I'm also sure that's the case here too).
  
  You said the wiki wasn't a place for info
  Specifically I was meaning that it wasn't a place for "any/all info regardless". Which is true. We don't want to know for example, the number of snowmen in the entrance to Sidhe Sneachta. The information present on the wiki is supposed to be there to help people play the game. We want helpful and relevant information (admittedly what is helpful and relevant for some and not others is subjective) and to some extent not all information follows this exactly. That is the angle we're going for though.
  
  You said you didn't want future/foreign content
  Regardless of how people are trying to paint me I specifically meant that I didn't want a page that simply had a brief, simplistic and mostly undetailed list ala patch notes of content not present in our server (it exists anyway, if you find this page supremely helpful please let me know). On the contrary writing actual future content pages (especially content we could feasibly get) is something I'm all for and have in fact helped with.
  
  I had an issue x years ago
  Well the wiki has undergone a huge management change and the policies have been structured so as to encourage discussion and such. It's not as if Mabination is the same website/community that Mabiguru was with the same admins and mods.
  
  I got into revert wars and I was correct/I made a change that was right and it got reverted
  Revert wars are mostly a thing of the past (because you're not supposed to do them regardless of who's right) and talk is encouraged. If you have any issues, start a discussion. If that still doesn't help you can contact an admin like Kadalyn (she's fair and stuff).
  
  You left very short and blunt messages when "talking"
  Admitted. This does mean that less weight/consideration is given to my points if I don't expand on them.
  
  The others talked me down
  I haven't actually really seen this? If you feel you're not getting fair treatment though then that's problematic and you should take it to a wiki mod or if a wiki mod is already involved then talk to Kadalyn. She especially is striving for a fair and open wiki environment.
  
  I got banned for a frivolous reason
  The ban list is available for all to see. I personally don't see any frivolous banning (other than bots) in recent times but if you feel you were unjustly banned then talk to Kadalyn about it.