Continuation of the Wiki Discussion

• Zekkii wrote on 2014-09-16 05:20
  @Kadalyn:
  The incident in question didn't bother me half as much as it being used to try to instigate me or discredit me on Mabination, I didn't act so appallingly that I needed to be publicly called names for it and it isn't related to my arguments regardless. I did try to make the redirects invisible or show the proper page in search, but the code I used either wasn't comparable with media wiki or wasn't written properly.
  
  I hope you'll forgive me if this has put me off further editing though. Either way I truly appreciate your response, especially after being met with such hostility it makes feel very relieved.
• Second wrote on 2014-09-16 05:29

  Quote from Mystickskye;1247629:

  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Talk:Flameburst
  You got two polite replies explaining why these sorts of redirects weren't in the interest of the wiki. Blargel tried investigating your fix and found that it didn't seem possible.

  
  
  Someone needs to delete the "Mongeese" redirect. It's an embarrassment to the wiki.
• Mystickskye wrote on 2014-09-16 06:05

  Quote from Second;1247665:

  Someone needs to delete the "Mongeese" redirect. It's an embarrassment to the wiki.

  I actually agree with you but apparently we're keeping it on the basis that people actually type mongeese into the search box. Lowest common denominator type stuff.
• Snowie Stormflower wrote on 2014-09-16 14:40
  Hmm, when I split this thread I kinda wanted it to be a sort of feedback thread for MWW since they're reading here at the moment anyway, albeit I was hoping for a less aggressive approach from some of you, hnng.
  
  I'm glad Kadalyn has jumped in to try and explain things for people, as well. (He's a nice guy, at least, I remember having conversations with him at one point)
  
  Anyway, it appears that a lot of things that people have issues with, are things that happened in the past. I don't know how long ago these things may have happened but it might be time to give it another shot, maybe.
  
  I've also seen Mabinoger mentioned once or twice, well I got something to say about that, too. But I'll spoiler it for those who aren't interested.
  (Contains a tl;dr for the lazy)
  
  [SPOILER="Lame speech about Mabinoger and me"]
  Two years ago, MWW went down for almost a week, and I thought I'd contact Exec and ask if he still had plans for Mabinoger, while he didn't really pay much attention to it at all anymore, I made him appoint me as moderator there, and wanted to see how things would go if I did a wiki my own way for once.
  
  I knew that it was too much for me to handle alone, so I decided I needed help, with MWW down, I thought it was a good idea to get some people to help me out, so I made this thread on the Nexon forums. (The title looks badly chosen now that I look back at it)
  
  I thought it was fine at the time, little did I know that some MWW people weren't happy about the idea. I managed to get some people to help me out and we got quite a bit done during the first few days. It looked alright to me.
  
  And then it went from a peaceful journey to somewhat painful endeavor.
  MWW came back up, no biggie, I planned to just continue working on Mabinoger, some of the people I originally "recruited" stopped helping out at this point of course, since they no longer saw the need to do so.
  All of a sudden, some people started blatantly copy-pasting pages from MWW into Mabinoger, something I didn't expect and didn't approve of either, we got into a conflict with MWW about it and after a discussion with some members we decided to make it a rule that copy-pasting wasn't allowed at all.
  Of course, that didn't stop some people, and it kept going in an endless cycle with no end in sight, and of course some people continuing to be mad at Mabinoger.
  
  After a few weeks of that, I decided to just give up, it wasn't nearly what I wanted to do. I also felt like a made a big mistake at the time and that it looked like I had the intention to overthrow MWW, which I actually didn't intend at all.
  
  I still felt like everything was my fault, since I'm the one who even brought it up to begin with. I decided to just sneak back into MWW without a word and rework/update entire pages until I felt I had done enough to make up for what I had caused, at least no one complained about it.
  
  [SIZE="3"]tl;dr[/SIZE] I wish to apologize to the staff of Mabinogi World Wiki for the issues that had happened between MWW and Mabinoger, I never intened for these to happen nor did I wish for anyone to get hurt in the process. Yet I still strongly feel I am at fault for what has happened and wish it could be undone, I'm sorry.
  [/SPOILER]
• Kadalyn wrote on 2014-09-16 16:10

  Quote from Snowie Stormflower;1247699:

  Hmm, when I split this thread I kinda wanted it to be a sort of feedback thread for MWW since they're reading here at the moment anyway, albeit I was hoping for a less aggressive approach from some of you, hnng.

  
  I knoww, I'm sort of =_=ing at the wiki people I know getting so hot headed, like, it isn't helping a sense of diplomacy.
  
  

  Quote from Snowie Stormflower;1247699:

  I'm glad Kadalyn has jumped in to try and explain things for people, as well. (She's a nice person, at least, I remember having conversations with her at one point)

  
  Thanks! :3 I miss your coming around, actually, you're cool too.
  
  

  Quote from Snowie Stormflower;1247699:

  ...[SIZE="3"]tl;dr[/SIZE] I wish to apologize to the staff of Mabinogi World Wiki for the issues that had happened between MWW and Mabinoger, I never intened for these to happen nor did I wish for anyone to get hurt in the process. Yet I still strongly feel I am at fault for what has happened and wish it could be undone, I'm sorry.
  

  
  
  No one blamed you Snowie, it was pretty much all lumped on Code. Also whoever wrote that script originally but I don't remember who it was. If you need forgiveness though, you are long forgiven. <3
• Code2008 wrote on 2014-09-16 17:17

  Quote from Kadalyn;1247709:

  No one blamed you Snowie, it was pretty much all lumped on Code. Also whoever wrote that script originally but I don't remember who it was.

  
  
  I only C/P a few articles... and then wanted to edit them from there. Like I said though, I abandoned hope on Mabinoger a long time ago.
• ironwoman wrote on 2014-09-16 20:27

  Quote from Kadalyn;1247652:

  From everything I've read from your postings, it seems that the information that you want to be on the wiki is easy for you to get, so if you indeed have information that you won't contribute in order to amend this lack of non-fashion information, is there anything that the wiki can do to alleviate any hindrances in your contributing this information? We are working towards easing templates, but it won't be released for a while. Other than that, is there anything we can do? Because frankly, if not, your call for contributors of information you could give is nonconstructive to this thread.
  

  
  
  I'm not gonna say it's "lolezmode" but I will say it's on a level where people can find the info with some research, although given that some people might need more time to do that.
  As you might have noticed, my main concern for the wiki was that the information tended to be more one-sided, and therefore is more useful for those certain aspects of the game while others were rather slower on updates. As I suggested before, I'd say it's due to the user base. Again, I am perfectly fine with those who edit fashion stuff, they can do their thing. However, what hindered some players with good understanding of the game and the aspects of the game outside the fashion world (such as Equivalent and Zekkii), had their contributions disrupted, sometimes without clear reasons, which discouraged them from partaking in the Wiki. Equivalent and Zekkii, I can say, have much deeper understanding of the game compared to the most active Wiki editors right now. I want to say for the things that the user base don't really know much about, I think they should let the better experienced players to update this. Of course, a moderation would be required, but I think for these contents, it can be a little loose. Or the general user base of Wiki can be educated with certain content. Doesn't even have to be detailed, just a complete understanding of the basics, because I really feel that there are many that lack many of the vital basic information.
  
  Also, another thing would be to inform people of the resources. I'm working together to compile a list of useful resources in nation, and I feel that Wiki user base can use this too. I'm gonna update my outdated user page soon to include these pages as well. Also, a minor thing, but for the daily missions part... there is someone that can code the daily missions pattern into the board, correct? Because we have a nicely researched calendar that shouldn't need manual updates.
  
  As for myself, I've been pretty behind on contributing, well... I used to do enchants mainly. After Lord missions came out, there really weren't that many new enchants. I'll probably start contributing more when I can get more detailed information about G20 stuff, like the new weapons, mob stat information, etc.
  
  

  Quote from Kadalyn;1247652:

  Really, he inexplicitely included himself in those he blames now, there's no need to continue. I'm sure that's all you wanted, was you point out the supposed irony.

  
  
  Now as for people who were attacking me...
  I was already aware that the experienced players not contributing enough (including me) were part of the problem. And henceforth, I was stating the problems I saw in Wiki, which included some editors, unbalanced content, and not enough contribution in some aspects. Instead y'all decide to just attack my views. I stated my views, but did I attack yours? In fact, I agree with some of your views. I didn't attack any of you, nor was I trying to shut you down. If you want to make the Wiki user base look like a better community, I suggest you actually fix this attitude, and be prepared to listen to everyone. This is the similar attitude that people like Equivalent and Zekkii faced before.
  
  Also, I'm not a "min-maxer with thumbs in their arses" or uptight elitist you might think I am. I can tell you I've spent less money on this game than most of you, nor do I have all my equipments nicely reforged. I mean, for fuck's sake, I still don't own a dragon or a partner. So don't make any assumptions as I didn't make an assumption for any of you in the thread and don't make insults, even if it's implicit. I could just call you all noobs that don't know shit about this game (which I feel are 95-98% of the Mabinogi population anyway), but that really wouldn't get us anywhere, would it? Plus you'd all be insulted by it. The same goes for you all, calling me elitist or a "min-maxer" or a complainer isn't getting you anywhere. If you really want meaningful discussion, start by getting rid of this attitude, both in nation and Wiki.
• Lia wrote on 2014-09-16 21:41
  @Ironworman I'm not a wiki editor/member, just a spectator. I thought you came off aggressively at first in voicing your own opinions, even directly insulting others, so I responded in probably somewhat of a like way. I took your approach as belittling, but since I've misunderstood I apologize. I don't see any problem at all with min-maxing or attempting to with limited resources, maxing out all the big numbers is one of the fun parts of playing for me.
• Kadalyn wrote on 2014-09-18 07:27

  Quote from ironwoman;1247475:

  ...
  As for the dailies updates, here's a useful link that the many editors could use: What's that? Oh, just a pattern of daily missions that y'all could use and I'm sure wiki editors can put the pattern in the Wiki to update automatically. It's not like this is the first time I mentioned this link.

  
  
  Thanks for this link, I hadn't actually seen it before. Saiyr contacted the owner and he's allowed us to use his API, so we have a beta of automatic dailies on the wiki now.
• Rydian wrote on 2014-09-22 08:04
  The current front page needs an update. It's full of stuff, but most of it is not needed, like... you don't need an entire list of skills in Mabinogi on the front page of the wiki. It might have fit well in the past, but with how the game has grown it's just taking up space. The skills and pages lists could be shortened to an index linking to various mechanics, like "Skills" and "Dungeons" and "Reforges" and "Combat", without also listing all of the sub-pages.
  
  A lot of the freed-up space could be used for various widgets that readers and editors would find a lot more useful. The "Pages that are marked as needing attention" suggested widget/box/info/thing/terminology, that legendary "List of current in-game events" segment that I've heard rumors about that has yet to show up, etc.
  
  "GodDamnitRydian this is a wiki, haven't you been reading, why don't you fix it yourself?" - Important things like the front page are things users are not allowed to update themselves from what I see.
  
  

  Quote from Kadalyn;1247652:

  Ah, I agree, these should be relegated to some sort of NeedsUnupdateableData category.
  
  This is literally what categories are, though, so I don't see any need to reinvent the wheel, but rather restrategize our categorization, perhaps.

  A new category, like PriorityUpdateTarget or NeedsHelp or something, and something that's easily-visible (important part) recommending those pages to be updated.
  
  Idunno' custom wiki pages and templates so I don't know how easy it might be to make a little infobox to show pages in a category with custom formatting for a pretty display, but it should be doable in general.
  
  However, there should be a way for readers (not editors) to mark a page as needing attention. Most people have no clue about wiki editing or syntax.
  
  

  Quote from Kadalyn;1247652:

  PS: I lurk a lot, I'm actually intimately familiar with both of you. [creeping intensifies]

  I'm suddenly reminded of when I posted a pic in the "IRL pics" or whatever thread.
  
  [SPOILER="Blah"]Also, Nise Panda was calling for late update info to be removed from the wiki entirely. They specified they did not want missed updates on the wiki at all in any shape or form on any page, I only quoted them a few times fre reference because they're not here to take part in this convo so it didn't seem fair.
  
  However, the fact that the wiki didn't listen to either and allowed the info to be segregated, kept, and updated is a good thing.[/SPOILER]
  
  

  Quote from ironwoman;1247740:

  Also, I'm not a "min-maxer with thumbs in their arses" or uptight elitist you might think I am.
  [...]
  I could just call you all noobs that don't know shit about this game (which I feel are 95-98% of the Mabinogi population anyway),

  "I don't think I'm better than most people. By the way 95% of people are worse than me."
  
  Psst. That's the elitism people talk about right there.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2014-09-23 18:00

  Quote from Rydian;1248473:

  The current front page needs an update. It's full of stuff, but most of it is not needed, like... you don't need an entire list of skills in Mabinogi on the front page of the wiki. It might have fit well in the past, but with how the game has grown it's just taking up space. The skills and pages lists could be shortened to an index linking to various mechanics, like "Skills" and "Dungeons" and "Reforges" and "Combat", without also listing all of the sub-pages.

  
  
  I disagree with an outright removal. They could be hidden in dropdown boxes, sure, but I'm sure newbs would refer to the front page for skills; they wouldn't know what to search for right away.
• Rydian wrote on 2014-10-04 09:37

  Quote from Darkboy132;1248598:

  I disagree with an outright removal. They could be hidden in dropdown boxes, sure, but I'm sure newbs would refer to the front page for skills; they wouldn't know what to search for right away.

  I'm not against having a summary of the game's content on the front page. What I'm against is a full index listing every single skill, when a far smaller number of links will work.
  
  Like a big "Skills" link and smaller links under it, one for each skillset. That will point users to all the pages for that skill category without taking up a metric buttload of space.
  
  I've been slowly learning wiki syntax lately (Archeage's wiki is pathetically bare for multiple reasons), so I might be able to do more than basic text editing and a redirect or so soon. I think one issue with the Mabi wiki is that most people don't know wiki syntax, and don't want to bother learning to do basic tasks. One possible help is a way to allow non-tech-savvy users point out pages that need correction...
  
  Another might be some way for users to post or collect info that wiki editors then use to fix up articles. This happens as a side-effect of things sometimes, like people will do tests here on the nation forums or will pull in and double-check info from overseas, and then somebody who read it here goes and updates the wiki with it. Something more direct, like a "Post info here that needs fixing on the wiki" thread would probably encourage more edits... but on the other hand it might also encourage more laziness. Though it will get a partially non-wiki audience, unlike some feature centralized on just the wiki.
  
  I'm not sure what to suggest, though, as this is a common issue with wikis and other things like them and if there was a simple solution then this problem wouldn't exist. A lot of things don't get edited because people...
  A - Don't know the info.
  B - Don't know about the wiki or that it needs to be updated.
  C - Know about the wiki but don't care enough to do the work of updating it.
  D - Are lazy about it.
  
  But it's obvious that something should be done to encourage people to at least provide info, even if they're not editing the wiki themselves. In fact especially those people, because it's a data source the wiki is not tapping too strongly right now.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2014-10-04 17:37

  Quote from Rydian;1249855:

  Another might be some way for users to post or collect info that wiki editors then use to fix up articles. This happens as a side-effect of things sometimes, like people will do tests here on the nation forums or will pull in and double-check info from overseas, and then somebody who read it here goes and updates the wiki with it. Something more direct, like a "Post info here that needs fixing on the wiki" thread would probably encourage more edits... but on the other hand it might also encourage more laziness. Though it will get a partially non-wiki audience, unlike some feature centralized on just the wiki.
  
  A lot of things don't get edited because people...
  A - Don't know the info.
  B - Don't know about the wiki or that it needs to be updated.
  C - Know about the wiki but don't care enough to do the work of updating it.
  D - Are lazy about it.

  
  
  I've actually done that a number of times. A majority of talks were just completely ignored.
  
  And of course unedited things are a huge factor. Even after Treasure Hunter I still see a lot of information not up to date, and I bet once Saga 2 comes out there's still going to be a lot of missing information.
  
  I've also noticed a lot of recent edits being more... careless. For example:
  -An admin deleted the Sun Road Colt page because two editors mistook it for Sun Prophet Colt. I immediately brought it up on IRC and she reverted it after me and Mysticskye proved the two weapons were different.
  -An editor mistakenly and copy-pasted in "(Area)" in Treasure Dungeon. I pointed it out but it's still there.
  -The mod working on the up-to-date exploration list put the quest's typo name outside of the quest template it belongs to, causing the typo to appear under the Rewards column.
• Rydian wrote on 2014-10-07 09:32

  Quote from Darkboy132;1249875:

  I've actually done that a number of times. A majority of talks were just completely ignored.

  If I see people talking about wrong stuff on the wiki and they have proof or tests, I'll go edit it... but a lot of talks on these forums are just stuff like "No that's wrong and you're stupid jesus christ did you have paint chips and power lines for lunch as a child or something?" and there's not much proof that an update is needed.
  
  

  Quote from Darkboy132;1249875:

  And of course unedited things are a huge factor. Even after Treasure Hunter I still see a lot of information not up to date, and I bet once Saga 2 comes out there's still going to be a lot of missing information.
  
  I've also noticed a lot of recent edits being more... careless. For example:
  -An admin deleted the Sun Road Colt page because two editors mistook it for Sun Prophet Colt. I immediately brought it up on IRC and she reverted it after me and Mysticskye proved the two weapons were different.
  -An editor mistakenly and copy-pasted in "(Area)" in Treasure Dungeon. I pointed it out but it's still there.
  -The mod working on the up-to-date exploration list put the quest's typo name outside of the quest template it belongs to, causing the typo to appear under the Rewards column.

  I haven't run into any issues correcting people's editing mistakes there, I don't think this wiki has the auto-watch-on-edit function enabled or something, only the contributing page tagging if an edit was the latest.
• Snowie Stormflower wrote on 2014-10-07 09:57
  I suppose the Wiki needs a more central method of communication. Talk pages are a little confusing to some and a large amount of users won't even notice they're there to begin with.
  
  I think there's also people with lots of information to put on the Wiki who are either afraid they're gonna mess up the coding (I've met quite a few of those) or just don't have enough time to put it there/make it work with Wiki formats. Honestly though they shouldn't be afraid to ask people to have people do it for them if they know how to Wiki and have lots of free time (like me [SIZE="3"]*hint hint*[/SIZE])! Same goes for things you think are ugly/inconsistent/badly worded/etc. The current Wiki people can only do so much.