Continuation of the Wiki Discussion

• ceilingcat wrote on 2014-09-15 19:27

  Quote from ironwoman;1247475:

  I really don't want to attack on people here, but the very person who wrote the guide is almost useless in combat aspects of Mabinogi if you've actually seen the person fight. So for the non-fashion content, we have these kind of people editing. This should pretty much give you an idea of the quality of non-fashion and non-storyline contents.

  
  
  Maybe fighting isn't their thing? That doesn't mean they can't be knowledgeable on the matter and give useful information. One shouldn't expect things like reforges and end-game gear to be listed in introductory guides. While you may not recommend the guide to noobs, that doesn't mean that they won't find it helpful. It's your single biased opinion versus the opinion of noobs who read that guide.
  
  It's ironic how someone who holds such strong resentment towards the wiki and its contributors knows so much about it. If I didn't know any better, it's almost as if you use/check in on the wiki on a regular basis. You've made it dreadfully clear that you dislike the wiki, and that you feel superior to everyone on the wiki. However, if you know of so many errors/discrepancies with the wiki (again, I'd like to point out the irony of that) yet you don't bother to do anything to fix it, then you're as much a part of the problem as you make the wiki contributors out to be. And no, ranting on the forums and making personal attacks on people is not trying to fix it.
  
  tl;dr Your attitude towards the wiki and bias against the contributors is feeding your own negative image of what the wiki is.
• Rydian wrote on 2014-09-15 19:44

  Quote from Mystickskye;1247435:

  I'm not sure what your point is other than restating things both you and I have said and proving me correct?

  I'm providing quotes of you that are the opposite of what you've stated here in the thread, and so far you've failed to explain yourself (other than the attempted "trivia" defense that was unrelated to me). You're saying "No it's a misunderstanding" and I'm showing what you've stated and what you've responded to.
  
  If you want to fix a misunderstanding, it's going to need less "no" and more actual explanation.
  
  

  Quote from ceilingcat;1247440:

  Random lurker here, but I thought I'd point that you seem to be misinterpreting what Mystickskye has been saying the entire time. More specifically, "I don't think we should have a Foreign Content/Skipped Content section at all."
  
  The discussion was on the patch page, so I thought it would have been implied that everything said on that discussion page was in reference to only the patches page (completely ignoring the fact that the specific mention of the future/unreleased content section itself, and not to the entire wiki, was made in most of the quotes you posted of the discussion, save for the 1-word replies).

  At the time of that discussion, unreleased and foreign content was on that page. One of the links I've provided is a revision link to show that, here it is again so you can see and compare.
  
  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/index.php?title=Patches&oldid=598477
  As of May 26th, 2014, the patches page had sections at the bottom for content that had not hit NA, and for foreign content that had passed the timeline but was not in NA yet.
  
  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Thread:Talk:Patches/Unreleased_Content
  The thread was started on May 26th, 2014.
  
  The original question was about what to do with the existing foreign info on that page as well as unreleased info that was not on there yet. The two options given were adjusting the wording and ordering on that page, or making a new page.
  
  To those presented options, Mystickskye said "No."
  
  Am I misunderstanding the word "no", do I need to go consult a dictionary and then reevaluate my life? Is everything I know about the word "no" a lie? Is the wiki actually a tentacle hentai where "no" means "yes"?
  
  Kapra responded to that "No." with the following post asking for clarification.
  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Thread:Talk:Patches/Unreleased_Content/reply_%284%29
  

  Quote from Kapra:

  No to what if not everything, and can you explain?

  
  
  And when Mystickskye responded with clarification, they said...
  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/view/Thread:Talk:Patches/Unreleased_Content/reply_%2812%29
  

  Quote from Mystickskye:

  We should just do away with that section as said in last thread. Reasons are there.

  
  
  And it was only later (on June 12th) that the Foreign Content page was created...
  http://wiki.mabinogiworld.com/index.php?title=Foreign_Content&action=history
  
  In addition, Kapra, the one who proposed the new page and was opposed, was the person who created the page and the person who did the split (stating in the revision note that "Saiyr" is the one who gave him permission) and neither Nise Panda or Mystickskye were involved in that process at all, so I've only seen them post opposition.
  
  Unless I've suffered head trauma in the past few days and suddenly don't know the meaning of things like "no" and "removed" and "removed from the wiki entirely" and "rather not have other server content here"...
  
  
  

  Quote from Kadalyn;1247456:

  We do have a lot of things like these, see this, but it's not exactly helpful when it comes to drop locations or ego data or anything so long term. So I was thinking more something of an overview indicating, for instance, what research is long term, or how to handle game content updates, etc.

  One issue there is that there's too many pages that cannot be reasonably expanded, but the wiki is asking for it. Like the "Monsters that can be turned into a cookie" from an event from 2011. There's no way people can be expected to fill that section out as the action isn't working (though the event page itself is alright), but it's taking up space on that page.
  
  That's why I suggest something that's viewed somewhere visible (category pages are not very visible but that's another issue) and also filled with what users and staff actually see as issues that could use info and fixing. It'd generally be filled with just the 10-20 pages at any given time that are in most need of fixing up... like if some new gear comes out with special abilities it'd be listed there until enough info had been written there so that it was acceptable. Same with new events and stuff, but also if there's some old page that's still relevant than needs a major do-over, it could be listed there.
  
  Something so users and staff can manually mark a page as "This needs work but I can't do it" (due to in-game limitations like race or item availability or character progression) and then people on the wiki can see that list easily and be all "Oh hey I know some stuff about this".
  
  
  
  

  Quote from Kingofrunes;1247509:

  As much as I would love to post Foreign Content on the wiki, I have just enough energy to compile that info and post it Mabination. I don't feel like messing around with the wiki templates and formatting and all that to post it there. Plus most info I dig up usually isn't 100% accurate and I'm afraid to put that on the wiki.
  
  I leave that stuff up to Kapra but he doesn't really care about Mabinogi as much these days to do something like that. So I guess the best I can do is offer that info here and hope someone here cares enough to put it there somewhere.

  I understand how you feel there.
  
  I'll keep that in mind, though, if that helps.
• Lia wrote on 2014-09-15 19:56
  There's a difference between wanting to clear a misunderstanding, and demanding a person labor to affirm your views after it's obvious they've lost interest in doing so, and you've given them no incentive to continue the conversation. Especially since that conversation's hit a wall long ago. It says something when your argument devolves into semantics. Just saying.
• ironwoman wrote on 2014-09-15 20:38

  Quote from ceilingcat;1247513:

  Maybe fighting isn't their thing? That doesn't mean they can't be knowledgeable on the matter and give useful information. One shouldn't expect things like reforges and end-game gear to be listed in introductory guides. While you may not recommend the guide to noobs, that doesn't mean that they won't find it helpful. It's your single biased opinion versus the opinion of noobs who read that guide.
  
  It's ironic how someone who holds such strong resentment towards the wiki and its contributors knows so much about it. If I didn't know any better, it's almost as if you use/check in on the wiki on a regular basis. You've made it dreadfully clear that you dislike the wiki, and that you feel superior to everyone on the wiki. However, if you know of so many errors/discrepancies with the wiki (again, I'd like to point out the irony of that) yet you don't bother to do anything to fix it, then you're as much a part of the problem as you make the wiki contributors out to be. And no, ranting on the forums and making personal attacks on people is not trying to fix it.
  
  tl;dr Your attitude towards the wiki and bias against the contributors is feeding your own negative image of what the wiki is.

  
  
  If fighting isn't their thing, then they should just leave it to those that are. And yes, enchants and reforges should be included, as it is one of the basic and fundamental concepts and items of Mabinogi. They don't even have to go deep into it, just mention that it's important. If such information were to be included, it'd be much more helpful to the newbies who needs a grasp of necessary information. I'm always open to information, but my view is that the information that the person will be provided should be the one that's best out there. The ones I mentioned weren't.
  
  Also, let's not get into a misunderstanding here. Never have I ever said I disliked wiki, I'm actually in favor of the idea. I also never said I'm superior to everyone on the wiki, there are still a few that I know have the same knowledge about the game as I do if not more. The problem lies in the unbalanced ratio of game content articles.
  
  

  Quote from Sinned;1247512:

  You're welcome to assist in making it a reliable source otherwise I don't see why you're complaining. If you see it as unreliable and then I see no reason for you to use it.

  
  
  And I just said I know most of what I'm doing to not see the wiki to get by. Need I repeat myself?
  
  

  Quote from Sinned;1247512:

  But the thing is that you can't force non-fashiongi players to update. It may so happens that the wiki is more oftenly updated by fashion obsessed people.
  Simply telling them to update on things they don't care about may as well tell them to not update at all simply because they're not interested in those things. At that point, nobody wins. Therefore, once again, if you want to see non-fashion updates, contribute. If you're beyond the scope of what the wiki can offer with no intention to help, then I don't see why you bother.

  
  
  Never have I said in my posts that those fashionogis should be the ones updating other things. In fact, I'd be against it, as I feel that those editors that update the other aspects of the game should be the ones who have good knowledge of them. I don't have a problem with fashionogis updating fashion, they can do their thing. What I don't like is how fashion stuff is getting updated almost right on the spot, while many other aspects aren't. Blaze reforge error was an example.
  
  

  Quote from Sinned;1247512:

  Don't get me wrong, I love people who contribute. I know it's hard to keep everything in place due to how expansive Mabinogi has grown which is why I don't blame anybody for not contributing because (1) they already have all the information they would ever need, (2) can't find anything they can contribute to, or (3) if they simply don't have the resources to contribute.
  But for god sakes, don't complain if you have no legitimate right to.

  
  
  I'm not even complaining, I'm just stating the problems current Wiki has, which will get fixed later hopefully.
  Even if I were complaining, I'd still have all the rights to do so.
  One problem is that many people who do know the important information probably feel the same way about wiki as Kingofrunes does, because I feel the same way. It's a problem just as big as many of the editors in wiki, and who knows, maybe I and others will feel the need/urge to update later on, just not for now.
  
  

  Quote from Darkboy132;1247498:

  I don't understand why everyone keeps blaming wiki for that and not the source they pulled it from. Why is it always wiki having to take the fall? Before Treasure Hunter came out in NA wiki had no way of confirming it themselves.

  
  
  Yes they did. It's the KR servers, which enough of NA based players (many of whom are Wiki editors) play on to know what goes on in those servers.
  
  I'll admit, people like me and others losing interest in editing wiki articles is problem too, but my point still stands. Maybe I'll edit sometime later on, but as of now, I've been tired of editing.
• Lia wrote on 2014-09-15 21:02

  Quote from ironwoman;1247522:

  If fighting isn't their thing, then they should just leave it to those that are. And yes, enchants and reforges should be included, as it is one of the basic and fundamental concepts and items of Mabinogi.

  
  
  Enchants are fundamental, reforges are not at all. Short of pay to win, how would a beginner apply their knowledge of reforges? I don't think many beginners (if any at all) look into a skillset with the intent to min-max immediately, not to mention it would be impossible for them to anyway. More than that, this is just nitpicking at a guide which I believe was mentioned to be on someone's userpage - not even a main article or the be-all, end-all of puppetry guides. Furthermore there are definitely alternative guides for puppetry which anyone interested in the skillset can find outside of the wiki, so it really just sounds like you're complaining to complain. An incomplete guide on someone's userpage reflects a few things:
  
  1) An editor took their time to write a guide for the sake of others. Not for their own benefit.
  2) The guide was incomplete.
  3) Given the nature of a wiki, anyone can suggest to that user, on their user page, ways in which to improve that guide.
  
  Yet somehow, this person's efforts were construed negatively, when anyone has the power to affect improvements.
  
  

  Quote from ironwoman;1247522:

  If such information were to be included, it'd be much more helpful to the newbies who needs a grasp of necessary information. I'm always open to information, but my view is that the information that the person will be provided should be the one that's best out there. The ones I mentioned weren't.

  
  
  Reforges aren't "necessary" information to a newbie when reforges are 300k+ on many of the servers, unless you expect them to be p2w or gold buyers from day one. It can be argued either way really since it's a subjective opinion that can't be proven. And again, it was only someone's guide on their own personal userpage. If someone is intent on emptying their wallet from the start, they surely have the ingenuity to find the many other puppetry guides that exist.
  
  

  Quote from ironwoman;1247522:

  The problem lies in the unbalanced ratio of game content articles. ... What I don't like is how fashion stuff is getting updated almost right on the spot, while many other aspects aren't. Blaze reforge error was an example.

  
  
  Then place blame where it is due: on the people who have the information, want to see it on the wiki, but refuse to update the wiki themselves. If there is an unbalanced ratio of game content articles, it's because combat-oriented players aren't editing the wiki, and instead operating under the assumption that some other combat-oriented player magically will for them. Which is really how nothing gets done. Personally the wiki has met my needs whenever I visit it, as a combat and fashion player, so I don't understand the chagrin/unfounded blame-throwing.
• ironwoman wrote on 2014-09-15 21:12

  Quote from Lia;1247530:

  Text.

  
  
  Read again. Did I say that the editors are solely at fault? I clearly stated the fault is with people with more knowledge who don't have the urge to edit as well. I'm merely stating the problems, and that both sides do.
• Lia wrote on 2014-09-15 21:21

  Quote from ironwoman;1247536:

  Read again. Did I say that the editors are solely at fault? I clearly stated the fault is with people with more knowledge who don't have the urge to edit as well. I'm merely stating the problems, and that both sides do.

  
  
  That was your amended opinion, and I did read it. You saying they're not solely at fault means nothing since my post wasn't regarding whether both parties are at fault. It was regarding the current editors (such as ones you called out by name) being at no fault for the missing content certain people want to see. The bottom line is not only are they not at fault, but they're quite simply not responsible for missing content. There's only one party at fault: the people who want to see changes, but don't contribute. They are solely at fault.
• ironwoman wrote on 2014-09-15 21:31

  Quote from Lia;1247538:

  That was your amended opinion, and I did read it. You saying they're not solely at fault means nothing since my post wasn't regarding whether both parties are at fault. It was regarding the current editors (such as ones you called out by name) being at no fault for the missing content certain people want to see. The bottom line is not only are they not at fault, but they're quite simply not responsible for missing content. There's only one party at fault: the people who want to see changes, but don't contribute. They are solely at fault.

  
  
  Then we're talking about completely different things. Nothing to discuss here.
• Lia wrote on 2014-09-15 21:35

  Quote from ironwoman;1247543:

  Then we're talking about completely different things. Nothing to discuss here.

  
  
  If by different things you mean we're in disagreement, then that's the case. We're on the same page, you just want to deflect from further discussion on that, which is fine since neither of us will budge anyway.
  
  The sad truth is that min-maxers have no right to whine half as much as they do when they're just sitting around, thumbs-in-arse waiting for someone else to do the work you don't want to.
• Sinned wrote on 2014-09-15 21:42

  Quote from ironwoman;1247536:

  Read again. Did I say that the editors are solely at fault? I clearly stated the fault is with people with more knowledge who don't have the urge to edit as well. I'm merely stating the problems, and that both sides do.

  
  
  You mean like how you supposedly knew that only Treasure Hunter could access Treasure Dungeon while almost every other use thought it was at r6 until a few days ago?
  
  

  And I just said I know most of what I'm doing to not see the wiki to get by. Need I repeat myself?

  
  And need I repeat myself that if you don't need it then don't complain about it because it's irrelevant to you. The user base that does edit, will do as such to ensure the information is correct despite their limited abilities.
  
  

  I feel that those editors that update the other aspects of the game should be the ones who have good knowledge of them. What I don't like is how fashion stuff is getting updated almost right on the spot, while many other aspects aren't. Blaze reforge error was an example.

  
  
  What if there are maybe... 1:10 editors who mainly don't care about fashion? I don't fashion, I only edit what I see necessary which isn't much because
  1) I don't spend NX
  2) I stopped caring about finding enchants
  3) The only reforges I work with are the ones I get for free
  
  I'm almost 4k total, playing on and off since beta. What is currently on Wiki is all I need. That's just me using myself as an example. But in all seriousness, I don't pay attention enough to the wiki to know the true ratio, but maybe there lies some correlation between the fact that fashion gets updated ASAP because there are more users willing to work on the wiki for fashion than for combat.
  
  For the sake of the this thread, we may as well throw out the term "editor" because it makes it sound like there's actually a userbase that will edit on a regular and frequent basis. From my knowledge, there's maybe 5 people at most who are probably all fashion oriented.
  
  I shouldn't have to reiterate anything if you have any mental capacity for thinking to show why your "blaze error" example fits into what I just said.
  
  

  Even if I were complaining, I'd still have all the rights to do so.

  
  WHY?
  You have no legitimate reason to care about the wiki being updated. If you do then please fill me in because it appears you're well off enough to figure out most of it and you're complaining about things without giving a real solution.
  
  It's like how college freshmen think that you can simply do (task) to resolve a crisis. You don't JUST make jobs if there are poor people. You don't JUST decrease prices to combat inflation. It's more complex than that.
  
  

  It's the KR servers, which enough of NA based players (many of whom are Wiki editors) play on to know what goes on in those servers.
  

  
  
  Whhhhhhattttttttttt?
  You do realize that Mabination is the only place where there's actually an established KR test group right?
  
  Never in all my years have I heard of a NA player who actually plays on the Korean servers. At most it's a test server which I have partook in, and I wouldn't be surprised if others did, btu that was years ago when Mabinogi still had it's charm. Now it's just a giant clusterfuck of weird things that keep changing directions every 2 years that may have been the reason why Mabidata stopped updating too. Otherwise, trying to load windmill at 400+ ping? Good luck trying to actually main that server.
• ironwoman wrote on 2014-09-15 21:47

  Quote from Lia;1247545:

  If by different things you mean we're in disagreement, then that's the case. We're on the same page, you just want to deflect from further discussion on that, which is fine since neither of us will budge anyway.

  
  
  Actually, no, we're not on the same page, hence why I said what I said.
  If you want to say more, you're more than welcome to message me, but as I feel that we're not on the same page, doing so on this thread wouldn't be right.
• Lia wrote on 2014-09-15 21:51

  Quote from ironwoman;1247552:

  Actually, no, we're not on the same page, hence why I said what I said.
  If you want to say more, you're more than welcome to message me, but as I feel that we're not on the same page, doing so on this thread wouldn't be right.

  
  
  If you can point out how we're not on the same page I'll work with you on it. This is an open discussion about wiki matters/grievances so I don't see a reason to make it private.
  
  

  Quote from Sinned;1247551:

  ... complaining about things without giving a real solution.

  
  Discussion would be a lot easier if along with complaining solutions could be offered as well. My solution? I hope that the people who do have extensive non-fashion knowledge of the game can find the time to contribute to the wiki. I think that would make everyone happy, and everyone's contributions would be valued. As it is, a lot of the complaining isn't constructive at all, which is why I feel there's no point to complaining even if one does have a "right" to say their opinion.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2014-09-15 22:07

  Quote from Sinned;1247551:

  Whhhhhhattttttttttt?
  You do realize that Mabination is the only place where there's actually an established KR test group right?
  
  Never in all my years have I heard of a NA player who actually plays on the Korean servers. At most it's a test server which I have partook in, and I wouldn't be surprised if others did, btu that was years ago when Mabinogi still had it's charm. Now it's just a giant clusterfuck of weird things that keep changing directions every 2 years that may have been the reason why Mabidata stopped updating too. Otherwise, trying to load windmill at 400+ ping? Good luck trying to actually main that server.

  
  
  Please, ironwoman, tell us how many NA players actually play Korean servers, EXCLUDING Mabination's KR test team.
  
  

  Quote from Lia;1247555:

  Discussion would be a lot easier if along with complaining solutions could be offered as well. My solution? I hope that the people who do have extensive non-fashion knowledge of the game can find the time to contribute to the wiki. I think that would make everyone happy, and everyone's contributions would be valued. As it is, a lot of the complaining isn't constructive at all, which is why I feel there's no point to complaining even if one does have a "right" to say their opinion.

  
  
  I always try to contribute to the wiki as much as possible; even though I'm barred from editing I can still use their talk pages, though most of the time they're unanswered, ignored, and/or not added into the page (certain ninja skills unable to be used in rafting/hot-air ballooning for example).
  
  I know I made mistakes in the past but Kadalyn gave me chances to improve myself. I'm slightly scared of what the other editors think of me due to my faults, but all I can do is just keep moving forward and making myself better. Even though most of the wiki contributors appear to be harsh (in their own way), they're often right. Therefore I have to take that in and keep moving forward.
  
  I do really hope we all just get along, hold hands, and edit the wiki together in peace and harmony.
• Zekkii wrote on 2014-09-15 22:21

  Quote from Lia;1247555:

  If you can point out how we're not on the same page I'll work with you on it. This is an open discussion about wiki matters/grievances so I don't see a reason to make it private.
  
  
  Discussion would be a lot easier if along with complaining solutions could be offered as well. My solution? I hope that the people who do have extensive non-fashion knowledge of the game can find the time to contribute to the wiki. I think that would make everyone happy, and everyone's contributions would be valued. As it is, a lot of the complaining isn't constructive at all, which is why I feel there's no point to complaining even if one does have a right to say their opinion.

  
  Everyone I talked to either doesn't want to put in the effort or was aggravated or impaired by wiki staff. I know I'm not going to fight through a wall of editors to update formulas only to have them reversed by someone soon after. Some players were even banned for rather frivolous reasons, expecting them to edit is hardly lucid. Professional moderation is important for and by staff and players.
  
  There's also issues of plagiarism; MWW rarely ever cites people or pages even for what is practically copypasta. Doing so also relates to the OP since it's often one of the main sources for misinformation due to mistranslations, misconceptions, and simply referencing incorrect materials. Even if the user allows it without citation, then the wiki is liable if the information is wrong.
• ceilingcat wrote on 2014-09-15 22:50

  Quote from Zekkii;1247565:

  Everyone I talked to either doesn't want to put in the effort or was aggravated or impaired by wiki staff. I know I'm not going to fight through a wall of editors to update formulas only to have them reversed by someone soon after. Some players were even banned for rather frivolous reasons, expecting them to edit is hardly lucid. Professional moderation is important for and by staff and players.
  
  There's also issues of plagiarism; MWW rarely ever cites people or pages even for what is practically copypasta. Doing so also relates to the OP since it's often one of the main sources for misinformation due to mistranslations, misconceptions, and simply referencing incorrect materials. Even if the user allows it without citation, then the wiki is liable if the information is wrong.

  
  imgur.com/wCbm6ih
  Yes, because it was the wiki staff who escalated the situation and made it very aggravating...
  (for those interested, that was the discussion page on the flame burst page)
  
  If a formula gets reverted, then it's probably either 1. incorrect, 2. an equivalent formula to the one that's being replaced.
  
  As for the whole plagiarism "issue"...you've never gone to a lot of wikis have you...