[Mabinogi KR Test] Renovation Update - Ranged Combat // 12th of Feburary, 2015

• Zeo wrote on 2015-02-11 17:23

  Quote from ironwoman;1264711:

  2 seconds loading time or not, Final Shot is still a great skill. For those of you who think it's shit... I want to ask, how many of you are actually developed archers? Because I see none. If you actually want to discuss a skill in the area, at least have some knowledge and experience into it. If you can't get the full potential, or even just high potential out of it, don't conclude the skill is bad just because it isn't good for you. Of course it will suck with no damage, but it doesn't actually require any of Final Shot reforge for the skill to be good.

  
  
  Because like I stated in my previous post, usage of archery or not, you only need basic knowledge/common sense to determine if the skills are crap or not.
  
  If anything... the cooldown getting reduced by like 40 seconds at rank 1, isn't too much. Teleportation not affecting duration plus the skill doesn't get canceled upon knock-back is an improvement... but it still doesn't make Final Shot much better. Heck, even my ideal buff for Final Shot would be making it so it hits 200% damage for all archery skills, and making it so the skill doesn't get canceled from knock-back.
  
  But since cooldown get reduced a bit, plus teleportation doesn't affect your duration, and I reduced the attack multiplier down to 150%, and people still bitched over how it's unnecessary power creep when really... FH is still MUCH more powerful than FS and you can get multiple hits in with FH within 0.5 seconds which would make FH better than FS still, my goodness.
  
  Like EXmint just said... Final Shot are not an exactly good skill, and it have more cons to it than there is for pros. Which is why I suggested buffing things like Final Shot to be on par with Final Hit, and maybe even many other skillsets like Ninja, Puppetry and Dual Gun... but oh noes, the "endgame" players came to bash us and label us "dumb as hell" for saying those kind of things.
• Esileruf wrote on 2015-02-11 17:42

  Quote from Zeo;1264733:

  but oh noes, the "endgame" players came to bash us and label us "dumb as hell" for saying those kind of things.

  
  
  Have any endgame archers taken that opinion? Because I have yet to meet more than maybe three people who actually know what they're doing with archery, AND are human. Its not hard to fuck up doing archery as an elf, but apparently people somehow think elf = human in terms of how to approach archery.
  
  Anyways, since there seems to be no test update today, I'm waiting until tomorrow to actually toss in an opinion on actual content instead of a "testing the waters" update from KR.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-02-11 18:07

  Quote from Kaeporo;1264726:

  A lot of people seem to have unknowingly dismissed Rage Impact. It alone brings Final Hit to 600% damage.

  
  
  Does Rage Impact last for one hit like Support Shot or the entire 10 seconds? Either way though it shouldn't exist at all, since it's overpowering Lances even further. It's not like Melee Windmill or whatever actually ever needed some sort of boost.
  
  
  Rixx, do you know the new damage formula for Mirage Missile's Mirage effect?
• Rydian wrote on 2015-02-11 19:30
  Damage isn't my concern, it's usability. Given some previous changes to Magic (pages easier to get, charge times reduced, basic MP potions from NPCs) and melee (run while defending with a shield and such) it's obvious that Devcat is not focusing on balancing for the endgame.
  
  They want to improve the older skillsets to bring their accessibility and use on par with newer things (they even stated so in the announcements). That's why the focus should be what makes range an annoying and unreliable choice for newer players.
  
  Like... in addition to the aim percent being ~5-22 less than what you see on-screen (and that's as an elf, humans can have a higher loss due to higher aim speed in the same time at the same distances), archery has other issues that make a variety of tactics unreliable or flat-out undoable.
  
  When an enemy gets close to you, what do you do? Do you defend and then try to load and fire the skill at the enemy from point-blank range? This can be doable as a human with a high-rank Ranged Attack, but as a human with a lower-rank skill or as an elf it's unreliable at best. Do you Counter? But then you can't load any ranged skill for over a second while you stand there just staring at the enemy, allowing it to run up and smack you some more.
  
  This isn't an issue that other skillsets have. Even puppetry, you can disconnect and do normal melee attacks or smash to push back an attacker. Even with guns, the worst situation would be Flash Launcher on cooldown and no bullets to use other skills... but you can still counter and take action when done to start reloading and make some distance since you can load Reload while moving.
  
  This is most likely the reason they're adding that new skill, but depending on how it works it might just be another Support Shot in terms of common use. Other things like Counterattack with a bow locking your controls need to be looked at as well.
  
  
  
  @Current Discussion: Yes, Final Shot increases your DPS. You know what else does that too? Smokescreen.
  "It's fine because it increases your DPS" is the line of thought that prevented these updates previously.
  
  
  EDIT: And yes, I know, if they get close most players will use a stun pet. But that should not be a requirement to use the ranged skillset.
• willcaster wrote on 2015-02-11 19:59
  Fs is strong only if you have: Magnum gloves 200% bow mastery max dmg. bohemian set with final shot duration, bow with efective range and elemental reforge.
  
  I have none of this but i got 1104 dex without tittles, food or enchants lvl 70
  Back my days when FS let u start aiming and teleport increasing ur aiming% in such an insane way ( it stoped this or got bugged), it used to drop aggro from monsters when teleporting (it stoped doing this or got bugged). Fs was only useful vs bosses and only was usefull for 5-10 seconds.
  
  Then elfic archery started to use insane amounts of sp making FS even usless. those 5-10 seconds of real use started to decrese to 3-5 atleast for me
• Kaeporo wrote on 2015-02-11 22:30

  Quote from Darkboy132;1264740:

  Does Rage Impact last for one hit like Support Shot or the entire 10 seconds? Either way though it shouldn't exist at all, since it's overpowering Lances even further. It's not like Melee Windmill or whatever actually ever needed some sort of boost.

  
  
  The entire 10 seconds. Lance users will at best be able to push out two Smashes in that time. That's not terribly concerning.
  
  An important question would be whether or not Judgment Blade is considered a melee skill.
  
  

  Quote from Zeo;1264733:

  Because like I stated in my previous post, usage of archery or not, you only need basic knowledge/common sense to determine if the skills are crap or not.
  
  If anything... the cooldown getting reduced by like 40 seconds at rank 1, isn't too much. Teleportation not affecting duration plus the skill doesn't get canceled upon knock-back is an improvement... but it still doesn't make Final Shot much better. Heck, even my ideal buff for Final Shot would be making it so it hits 200% damage for all archery skills, and making it so the skill doesn't get canceled from knock-back.
  
  But since cooldown get reduced a bit, plus teleportation doesn't affect your duration, and I reduced the attack multiplier down to 150%, and people still bitched over how it's unnecessary power creep when really... FH is still MUCH more powerful than FS and you can get multiple hits in with FH within 0.5 seconds which would make FH better than FS still, my goodness.
  
  Like EXmint just said... Final Shot are not an exactly good skill, and it have more cons to it than there is for pros. Which is why I suggested buffing things like Final Shot to be on par with Final Hit, and maybe even many other skillsets like Ninja, Puppetry and Dual Gun... but oh noes, the "endgame" players came to bash us and label us "dumb as hell" for saying those kind of things.

  
  
  I agree that Final Shot isn't awesome but adding a flat damage multiplier to the skill isn't a good solution. There are other ways to make it more worthwhile.
  
  ...and please stop comparing things to Final Hit. That skill simply needs a damage nerf. We sure as hell don't need DevCat buffing things to that level.
  
  [SPOILER="Setting the scoreboard"]I'm referencing the following excerpt from a Cracked article because it highlights an important concept that a lot of you have consistently overlooked; it presents that concept in manner that is easily understood by a wide audience, to a degree beyond which I feel I am capable.
  
  

  Quote from David Wong :

  Allow me to quote that classic philosopher known as The Poster for Death Wish 2: "First his wife. Now his daughter. It's time to even the score!"
  
  Well, in the wake of a terror attack, Step One is to forget about "the score" completely.
  
  Even those of us who aren't Charles Bronson have this invisible scoreboard in our minds that tracks how many times we've been screwed over versus how many times we've done the screwing. Get into a nasty argument with somebody, and the scoreboard sets the agenda -- if Steve's girlfriend brings up the time he got drunk and shit in the top part of the toilet, he now has to bring up the time she selfishly got a tumor and ran up a bunch of medical bills. BOOM! Your ball, bitch!
  
  But here's the ugly trick the world plays on you, and it's going to jack up your life every day from now to the grave:
  
  In reality, the scoreboard is your opponent.
  
  If that sounds like some Zen bullshit, let me give you an easy example:
  
  Whenever some notorious rapist is caught, exactly 100 percent of the conversations or Internet comment sections about the subject will say, "I hope he gets raped in prison!"
  
  See, because that would "even the score." But even five seconds' consideration demonstrates how monstrous that idea is: "rape is awesome, as long as it's targeted toward people who deserve it!" No, the cruel reality is that if that guy gets raped, the score isn't: Rapist 1, Society 1.
  
  It's: Rape 2, Society 0.
  
  So you can probably stop cheering now.
  
  See, because we've added to the sum total of rape in the world, and reinforced it as a thing that can/should happen, we have made it that much more common. Now think about the argument between the couple earlier -- with each new insult, was either side "winning" or "losing"? No -- the only loser was the relationship itself. Steve thinks the argument's Insult Scoreboard is showing Steve 22, Tilda 16* but the real score was Resentment 38, Relationship 0.
  
  That scoreboard, it turns out, is nothing more than a manifestation of the most primitive, violent, reptilian part of your brain. Seeing someone wrong you and then letting it slide -- letting that "score" stay in their favor -- is almost physically painful. So, yeah, if SEAL Team Six had exploded bin Laden's skull on September 13th, 2001, we would absolutely have still gone to war. We'd have still been 3,000 deaths down on the scoreboard. No way we'd let that go.
  
  So the next time you turn on the news and see that terrorists have blown up 10 children with a car bomb, that's the first step: Realize that the scoreboard lies. It will tell you that winning the game means dropping bombs that you know full well will splatter ten times as many children as collateral damage. The score -- the real score -- would then be:
  
  Violence Against Children 110, Humanity 0

  
  
  The score isn't Final Hit: 400%, Final Shot: 150%
  The score is Players: 450%, Monsters: 0%
  
  The key difference with game design is that it's important to consider all variables instead of focusing on just one or two. Even though I consistently recommend that fast, small balance changes are a better solution than slow, large balance patches I still understand that you shouldn't rely heavily on the former when dealing with MMOs. [/SPOILER]
• Zekkii wrote on 2015-02-11 22:50
  [Image: http://i.imgur.com/FYaxkTo.png]

  
  
  <shield id="flame">
• Zeo wrote on 2015-02-11 22:55
  So apparently the damage formula for Mirage Missile is still the same.
  
  Congratulations devCat on improving Mirage Missile in a way that is still equally crap.
  
  Edited:: just found out about new formula... That's bit better now. 5 int = 1 max and 3 dex = 1 max.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-02-11 23:16

  Quote from Rydian;1264751:

  @Current Discussion: Yes, Final Shot increases your DPS. You know what else does that too? Smokescreen.
  "It's fine because it increases your DPS" is the line of thought that prevented these updates previously.

  
  
  Lol... That is some amazing logic.
  
  

  Quote from Kaeporo;1264759:

  The entire 10 seconds. Lance users will at best be able to push out two Smashes in that time. That's not terribly concerning.

  
  
  Lances don't need any more damage bonuses at all. It's bad enough Import holds the record of 900~k Lance Charge damage, but if Rage Impact and Support Shot work together that would be even worse.
  
  Also, Tetosan said it was one hit? Screw these conflicting reports...
  
  

  Quote from Zeo:

  Final Shot

  
  
  I'd prefer:
  
  Final Shot:
  

  
  
  • Load time reduced to 0.
    
  • Archery load time decrease changed to cooldown decrease, and upped from 15% -> 30%.
    
  • Cooldown decreased 280 -> 270 at Ranks 5-2 and 260 -> 240 at rank 1. Why the fuck is its cooldown slightly longer than Final Hit's?
    
  • No longer consumes weapon durability.
    
  • At rank F-6, the aiming meter will start loading at 15% for all archer skills. This increases to 30% at ranks 5-2, and to 50% at rank 1.
    
  • Elves can now use this and even teleport while mounted.
    

  
  
  As Kaeporo said, Final Shot does not need a massive buff to match Final Hit's level, even as hopeless as it may seem.
• Zeo wrote on 2015-02-11 23:27

  Quote from Darkboy132;1264769:

  I'd prefer:
  
  Final Shot:
  

  
  
  • Load time reduced to 0.
    
  • Archery load time decrease changed to cooldown decrease, and upped from 15% -> 30%.
    
  • Cooldown decreased 280 -> 270 at Ranks 5-2 and 260 -> 240 at rank 1. Why the fuck is its cooldown slightly longer than Final Hit's?
    
  • No longer consumes weapon durability.
    
  • At rank F-6, the aiming meter will start loading at 15% for all archer skills. This increases to 30% at ranks 5-2, and to 50% at rank 1.
    
  • Elves can now use this and even teleport while mounted.
    

  
  
  As Kaeporo said, Final Shot does not need a massive buff to match Final Hit's level, even as hopeless as it may seem.

  
  
  Now that I would be happy for Final Shot.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-02-11 23:32

  Quote from Zeo;1264770:

  Now that I would be happy for Final Shot.

  
  
  Crisis averted! :ran_nao:
  
  

  Quote from windpro;1264713:

  Personally I would prefer it applying towards magnum or crash, but wouldn't that be kind of op?

  
  
  Hm, maybe for Magnum, but Crash has a 5.5 sec cooldown so you'd be only able to launch like 4 or 5 throughout its duration. Though it'd may be better if Crash's cooldown was lowered slightly, since the old one had a 2 sec load and was twice as fast than the new 5.5 sec cooldown.
• Aeribella wrote on 2015-02-12 00:03

  Quote from Kaeporo;1264759:

  The entire 10 seconds. Lance users will at best be able to push out two Smashes in that time. That's not terribly concerning.
  
  An important question would be whether or not Judgment Blade is considered a melee skill.
  
  
  
  I agree that Final Shot isn't awesome but adding a flat damage multiplier to the skill isn't a good solution. There are other ways to make it more worthwhile.
  
  ...and please stop comparing things to Final Hit. That skill simply needs a damage nerf. We sure as hell don't need DevCat buffing things to that level.
  
  [SPOILER="Setting the scoreboard"]I'm referencing the following excerpt from a Cracked article because it highlights an important concept that a lot of you have consistently overlooked; it presents that concept in manner that is easily understood by a wide audience, to a degree beyond which I feel I am capable.
  
  
  
  The score isn't Final Hit: 400%, Final Shot: 150%
  The score is Players: 450%, Monsters: 0%
  
  The key difference with game design is that it's important to consider all variables instead of focusing on just one or two. Even though I consistently recommend that fast, small balance changes are a better solution than slow, large balance patches I still understand that you shouldn't rely heavily on the former when dealing with MMOs. [/SPOILER]

  
  
  Personally I'd be happy if they upped the duration to 45-50 seconds like hydra, lowered the cooldown to 3 mins, and made it possible to reach 100% aim if you started aiming. At least that way you could use final shot far more often and for much longer. with reforges it could get down to what 2 mins? and 1 min duration. It may seem broken, but if they don't touch the damage, and just make it more efficient like they did magic skills it could be ALOT more useful, and even fun, without making it broken. Humans and elves would still do the same magnum damage, but elves would have a more entertaining way to use archery without it effecting or breaking them.
• Rydian wrote on 2015-02-12 00:14

  Quote from Darkboy132;1264769:

  Lol... That is some amazing logic.

  ...
  The point being that if the only thing that improves is DPS on a technical level, then this is not a "Renovation"
  
  Usability needs to be a primary focus, not end-game balancing.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-02-12 00:43

  Quote from Rydian;1264776:

  ...
  The point being that if the only thing that improves is DPS on a technical level, then this is not a "Renovation"
  
  Usability needs to be a primary focus, not end-game balancing.

  
  
  I know. From personal experience Smokescreen is nigh useless; the "DPS" it offers is non-existent. I meant to say how it's a perfect counter argument.
• Rixx wrote on 2015-02-12 02:22
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  [SIZE="5"]Skill in Detail: Urgent Shot[/SIZE]
  Total AP Consumption: 200
  Bonus Stats: Dexterity +20, Stamina +10
  Can be used while on horses.
  
  Urgent Shot is a skill that lets you concentrate and quickly handle the situation after a missed arrow.
  When an enemy is off-guard by seeing your missed arrow, you can push back the enemy, concentrate and increase aiming speed of next attack.
  
  Obtaining Skill: Rank [Support Shot] above B, then progress through the quest [Turning Emergency into an Opportunity].
  
  
  Novice Rank
  Damage: 100%
  Aiming Speed after Urgent Shot: 150%
  Cooldown Time: 7 seconds
  (+100, 1 Time, Learn better skills from other people or books.)
  
  F Rank (AP: 1, Dexterity +1)
  Damage 100%
  Aiming Speed after Urgent Shot: 150%
  Cooldown Time: 7 seconds
  (+1 , 100 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot.)
  (+3 , 10 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot with Critical Hit)
  (+5 , 20 Times, Successfully use skill after a failed shot)
  
  E Rank (AP: 4, Dexterity +1)
  Damage 100%
  Aiming Speed after Urgent Shot: 150%
  Cooldown Time: 7 seconds
  (+1 , 100 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot.)
  (+2 , 10 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot with Critical Hit)
  (+3 , 20 Times, Successfully use skill after a failed shot)
  
  D Rank (AP: 5, Dexterity +1)
  Damage 100%
  Aiming Speed after Urgent Shot: 150%
  Cooldown Time: 7 seconds
  (+1 , 100 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot.)
  (+1.5 , 10 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot with Critical Hit)
  (+2 , 20 Times, Successfully use skill after a failed shot)
  
  C Rank (AP: 7, Dexterity +1)
  Damage 100%
  Aiming Speed after Urgent Shot: 150%
  Cooldown Time: 7 seconds
  (+0.5 , 200 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot.)
  (+1 , 20 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot with Critical Hit)
  (+1.5 , 20 Times, Successfully use skill after a failed shot)
  
  B Rank (AP: 9, Dexterity +1)
  Damage 100%
  Aiming Speed after Urgent Shot: 150%
  Cooldown Time: 7 seconds
  (+0.5 , 200 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot.)
  (+0.5 , 20 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot with Critical Hit)
  (+1.5 , 20 Times, Successfully use skill after a failed shot)
  
  A Rank (AP: 10, Dexterity +1)
  Damage 110%
  Aiming Speed after Urgent Shot: 200%
  Cooldown Time: 6 seconds
  (+0.25 , 400 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot.)
  (+0.25 , 50 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot with Critical Hit)
  (+1 , 20 Times, Successfully use skill after a failed shot)
  
  9 Rank (AP: 12, Stamina +1, Dexterity +1)
  Damage 110%
  Aiming Speed after Urgent Shot: 200%
  Cooldown Time: 6 seconds
  (+0.25 , 400 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot.)
  (+0.25 , 50 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot with Critical Hit)
  (+1 , 30 Times, Successfully use skill during combat)
  (+1 , 20 Times, Successfully use skill after a failed shot)
  
  8 Rank (AP: 12, Stamina +1, Dexterity +1)
  Damage 110%
  Aiming Speed after Urgent Shot: 200%
  Cooldown Time: 6 seconds
  (+0.25 , 400 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot.)
  (+0.2 , 100 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot with Critical Hit)
  (+0.8 , 30 Times, Successfully use skill during combat)
  (+0.8 , 20 Times, Successfully use skill after a failed shot)
  
  7 Rank (AP: 12, Stamina +1, Dexterity +1)
  Damage 110%
  Aiming Speed after Urgent Shot: 200%
  Cooldown Time: 6 seconds
  (+0.2 , 400 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot.)
  (+0.2 , 100 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot with Critical Hit)
  (+0.6 , 30 Times, Successfully use skill during combat)
  (+0.6 , 20 Times, Successfully use skill after a failed shot)
  
  6 Rank (AP: 12, Stamina +1, Dexterity +1)
  Damage 110%
  Aiming Speed after Urgent Shot: 200%
  Cooldown Time: 6 seconds
  (+0.2 , 400 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot.)
  (+0.15 , 100 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot with Critical Hit)
  (+0.6 , 30 Times, Successfully use skill during combat)
  (+0.6 , 20 Times, Successfully use skill after a failed shot)
  
  5 Rank (AP: 20, Stamina +1, Dexterity +1)
  Damage 120%
  Aiming Speed after Urgent Shot: 230%
  Cooldown Time: 5 seconds
  (+0.15 , 600 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot.)
  (+0.15 , 100 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot with Critical Hit)
  (+0.6 , 30 Times, Successfully use skill during combat)
  (+0.6 , 20 Times, Successfully use skill after a failed shot)
  
  4 Rank (AP: 21, Stamina +1, Dexterity +2)
  Damage 120%
  Aiming Speed after Urgent Shot: 230%
  Cooldown Time: 5 seconds
  (+0.1 , 800 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot.)
  (+0.15 , 100 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot with Critical Hit)
  (+0.5 , 30 Times, Successfully use skill during combat)
  (+0.5 , 20 Times, Successfully use skill after a failed shot)
  
  3 Rank (AP: 22, Stamina +1, Dexterity +2)
  Damage 120%
  Aiming Speed after Urgent Shot: 230%
  Cooldown Time: 5 seconds
  (+0.1 , 800 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot.)
  (+0.12 , 100 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot with Critical Hit)
  (+0.5 , 30 Times, Successfully use skill during combat)
  (+0.5 , 20 Times, Successfully use skill after a failed shot)
  
  2 Rank (AP: 23, Stamina +1, Dexterity +2)
  Damage 120%
  Aiming Speed after Urgent Shot: 230%
  Cooldown Time: 5 seconds
  (+0.08 , 1000 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot.)
  (+0.12 , 100 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot with Critical Hit)
  (+0.5 , 30 Times, Successfully use skill during combat)
  (+0.5 , 20 Times, Successfully use skill after a failed shot)
  
  1 Rank (AP: 30, Stamina +2, Dexterity +3)
  Damage 150%
  Aiming Speed after Urgent Shot: 270%
  Cooldown Time: 4 seconds
  (+0.05 , 1500 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot.)
  (+0.1 , 150 Times, Successfully use Urgent Shot with Critical Hit)
  (+0.4 , 50 Times, Successfully use skill during combat)
  (+0.4 , 30 Times, Successfully use skill after a failed shot)
  
  Source: http://www.mabinogi.pe.kr/bbs/zboard.php?id=report&page=1&sn1=&divpage=4&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=29405
  
  
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