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[Mabinogi KR Test] Renovation Update - Ranged Combat // 12th of Feburary, 2015




TL;DR: The basic problem with aiming is that there's a lot of stuff going on before you start aiming and the server aims after you do, but the "fire my shot" command is a lot smaller and happens faster, so not only is the server's aim behind yours, they actually have slightly less time spent aiming then you do so the chances are further reduced from what you see on-screen.

From a game design and balance standpoint in theoretical terms, the aiming is neat.
In reality due to this and other issues, it damages the usability of the archery talent in general.
  • Kaeporo wrote on 2015-02-11 11:10
    Quote from ironwoman;1264711:
    2 seconds loading time or not, Final Shot is still a great skill. For those of you who think it's shit... I want to ask, how many of you are actually developed archers? Because I see none. If you actually want to discuss a skill in the area, at least have some knowledge and experience into it. If you can't get the full potential, or even just high potential out of it, don't conclude the skill is bad just because it isn't good for you. Of course it will suck with no damage, but it doesn't actually require any of Final Shot reforge for the skill to be good.

    Final Shot is still great pre-renovation because it basically guarantees you the true "Magnum Revolver". You're firing potentially 874% projetiles, at almost 2 times per one second. If we want to talk more realistically, probably more like 3 projectiles per 2 second. That's still more than what the game has to offer in terms of DPS, and I think the skill can still live with the loading time. Sure, it could get annoying compared to the other insta-load skills, but skills gotta have draw backs.

    As for the 50% issue, it is only ranged attack that gets affected by it. However, the DPS you can pull off with Ranged Attack with Final Shot is actually nice. Although, to be fair, you don't really need Final Shot to get off a good normal attack on enemies. And like you said, the skill's really about Magnum shot. The damage potential of this skill is insane, especially with combo cards, not that it'd really be needed in the first place.


    Final Shot is not a great skill.

    It suffers from a heavy cooldown, a short duration, and a lengthy load time. Its sole purpose is to minimize a drawback which is exclusive to archery. Does Final Shot have the potential to significantly improve the effectiveness of Magnum Shot? Yes. However, it's heavily reliant on the effectiveness of the player's Magnum Shot; a skill which is notoriously costly and difficult to effectively utilize.

    The unfortunate truth is that Mabinogi has become a piss-easy game which doesn't require that kind of firepower in any practical situation. You can tackle damn near anything with Firebolt instead as it's much cheaper to obtain and easier to execute. Final Hit only further trivializes Magnum Shot. You can't even use Final Shot/Magnum Shot as a talking point for end-game/fully-geared players as its inferior to other tactics in practical situations.

    Final Shot isn't a terrible skill, but it's definitely not a great skill. If it was a great skill, usage would reflect its effectiveness.
  • Aubog007 wrote on 2015-02-11 11:25
    I guess i have to say it again, not everyone is endgame, devcat has never balanced "end game" in any update

    Lemme ask you something for you endgamers that worry about overpowered skills.
    What are you going to do with them, i mean. Hell, until they put some new stuff to do, which so far isnt going to be for a while in NA...


    And i mean somewhat challenging content
  • ReFuSeR wrote on 2015-02-11 12:46
    Quote from Aubog007;1264718:
    I guess i have to say it again, not everyone is endgame, devcat has never balanced "end game" in any update

    Lemme ask you something for you endgamers that worry about overpowered skills.
    What are you going to do with them, i mean. Hell, until they put some new stuff to do, which so far isnt going to be for a while in NA...


    And i mean somewhat challenging content


    Is the fact that not everyone is endgame a reason to overpower a skill to all shits? I think not. You don't even need to be endgame to deal crazy damage with 400%. Any kid with ele swords and 400 character window max can be swinging 10ks in final hit like it's nothing. It's ridiculously overpowered. And in the hands of powerful players it's even more ridiculous.


    Steps to be pro at mabi:
    make hero character on close combat
    r1 final hit
    obtain ele 3 swords
    go ham
  • Kaeporo wrote on 2015-02-11 13:13
    Quote from ReFuSeR;1264725:
    Is the fact that not everyone is endgame a reason to overpower a skill to all shits? I think not. You don't even need to be endgame to deal crazy damage with 400%. Any kid with ele swords and 400 character window max can be swinging 10ks in final hit like it's nothing. It's ridiculously overpowered. And in the hands of powerful players it's even more ridiculous.


    Steps to be pro at mabi:
    make hero character on close combat
    r1 final hit
    obtain ele 3 swords
    go ham


    I would consider elemental 3 swords to be sort of a luxury.

    A lot of people seem to have unknowingly dismissed Rage Impact. It alone brings Final Hit to 600% damage.
  • Aubog007 wrote on 2015-02-11 13:15
    Quote from ReFuSeR;1264725:
    Is the fact that not everyone is endgame a reason to overpower a skill to all shits? I think not. You don't even need to be endgame to deal crazy damage with 400%. Any kid with ele swords and 400 character window max can be swinging 10ks in final hit like it's nothing. It's ridiculously overpowered. And in the hands of powerful players it's even more ridiculous.


    Steps to be pro at mabi:
    make hero character on close combat
    r1 final hit
    obtain ele 3 swords
    go ham


    Ele doesn't do much "endgame" except maybe NPC. and oh my gosh, NPC becomes slightly faster! the world is ending!
  • ReFuSeR wrote on 2015-02-11 13:19
    Quote from Kaeporo;1264726:
    I would consider elemental 3 swords to be sort of a luxury.

    A lot of people seem to have unknowingly dismissed Rage Impact. It alone brings Final Hit to 600% damage.


    My god yeah I didn't even know that. And of course final hit should only be used in conjunction with rage.(if the cooldowns allow this ofcourse) So basically you're hitting more than a smash at per second rates. Does Mabi developers have any idea what they're doing? It's like they just think up a bunch of fancy numbers and toss it in without any thought as to what they're enabling.
  • EXMint wrote on 2015-02-11 13:26
    Quote from ironwoman;1264711:
    2 seconds loading time or not, Final Shot is still a great skill. For those of you who think it's shit... I want to ask, how many of you are actually developed archers? Because I see none. If you actually want to discuss a skill in the area, at least have some knowledge and experience into it. If you can't get the full potential, or even just high potential out of it, don't conclude the skill is bad just because it isn't good for you. Of course it will suck with no damage, but it doesn't actually require any of Final Shot reforge for the skill to be good.

    Final Shot is still great pre-renovation because it basically guarantees you the true "Magnum Revolver". You're firing potentially 874% projetiles, at almost 2 times per one second. If we want to talk more realistically, probably more like 3 projectiles per 2 second. That's still more than what the game has to offer in terms of DPS, and I think the skill can still live with the loading time. Sure, it could get annoying compared to the other insta-load skills, but skills gotta have draw backs.

    As for the 50% issue, it is only ranged attack that gets affected by it. However, the DPS you can pull off with Ranged Attack with Final Shot is actually nice. Although, to be fair, you don't really need Final Shot to get off a good normal attack on enemies. And like you said, the skill's really about Magnum shot. The damage potential of this skill is insane, especially with combo cards, not that it'd really be needed in the first place.


    Just chipping in here as an 11k elf archer (among other things).

    Final Shot is not a "crap" skill, but it certainly isn't a particularly good skill either, especially for a racial skill (compare FH and Defense with a Vales shield). FS does not and cannot "guarantee" Magnum Revolver simply due to the fact you can still miss your shots. However, it cannot be denied that aim speed and therefore DPS do increase. In my experience though, that small DPS boost isn't really necessary most of the time. Without the use of FS, simply running closer to enemies between Magnum Shots bumps up your aim speed enough to kill most enemies and bosses quickly. Using FS shortens that time by maybe a few seconds, since you aim faster. The only practical use I have for FS is fighting bosses if I'm feeling lazy, stacking Enduring Melody and Life Anthem to offset stam use and using FS with my effective range bow to Magnum spam without having to move at all (granted, with an effective range bow you don't have to move at all anyway). By and large, the short duration makes FS impractical for mission/dungeon rooms due to archery's inherent lack of AoE power (Crash Shot lacks power if you don't crit and the cooldown is enormous in comparison to other AoE skills).
    FS and range as a whole are extremely lackluster and slow compared to newer skillsets, like puppets. I still use range but usually just wipe out most of the wave first with puppets then use my bow to finish off the stragglers. Even then, my dowras would probably be better for that purpose (quick attacks with no aiming). Range in general is slow and largely obsolete, and FS does very little to change that, revamp or no.

    tl;dr Final Shot is okay but doesn't address the problems with archery itself. FS (and range) is generally not worth using most of the time and very impractical. Even if FS were buffed, depending on how long the duration and cooldown become, range is still barely worth using in comparison to, say, puppets or guns, which combine AoE damage with single-target prowess, whereas range is largely focused on one-on-one combat (slow and methodical).
  • ReFuSeR wrote on 2015-02-11 13:43
    Quote from Aubog007;1264727:
    Ele doesn't do much "endgame" except maybe NPC. and oh my gosh, NPC becomes slightly faster! the world is ending!


    Even without ele anyone with some r6 222s can be hitting almost 5k per swing. That's ridiculous damage in my opinion. Outdoes wog with ease, no reforges, no stats, minimum to no effort at all.

    edit: o and I'd assume most of your oldschoolers have a pair of r6 222s sitting in your bank right now. :/