[KR] Changes to Renovation Updates and Alban Knight's Camp // 9th of April, 2015

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Twin wrote on 2015-04-10 11:58

Quote from Zeo;1270695:
I made a suggestion thread similar to this but many people are against this because they don't want all races to basically be same.

Wh-wha? My elf isn't allowed to dual-wield because some people feel they'd be to similar to humans? Sooo..if it's broken, don't fix it? I feel like that's what going on here.

Quote from Rydian;1270692:
By "mechanics", I meant how some skills that can be used by each race differ.
Like Smash having a different multiplier for giants, and with the Renovation update different proc chances.

I'd be in support of removing skill and equipment restrictions and making the class differences into stat and skill effects (though not to a huge extent).

Oh your use of mechanics was confusing , because smash functions the same for every race lol Buuut yea, only differences is damage

Anywho, removing racial restrictions is only a small, but needed step to fixing Mabi. Next step would be giving every weapon purpose to where players could actually seriously use them, while at the same time not making another weapon useless itself.So far it's..

Melee

1st > Lance or Dual Wielding (human mainly)

3rd > Every other melee weapon (Not even 2nd, that's how far behind they are)
spirit2roam wrote on 2015-04-10 14:50

So...from what I'm skimming through...while dual-wielding can become up to par (or better) than lances in a 1v1 boss situation, it doesn't mean that lances will be come useless right?

Right?
JoeyDee9 wrote on 2015-04-10 15:16

Quote from spirit2roam;1270712:
So...from what I'm skimming through...while dual-wielding can become up to par (or better) than lances in a 1v1 boss situation, it doesn't mean that lances will be come useless right?

Right?

Lets see, lance is 600% smash damage for humans without thames.

Bash is 920% damage without celtics. On an elemental immune enemy it's clear that duel weapon bash will win. On an non elemental immune enemy the max bonus (with a single lined elemental reforge) is 55% for lances and 44% for duel weapons.

AKA 930% lance smashes and 1324.8% bashes. Lets take r6 into consideration now.

Bash crit with two ele 3 r6 weapons - 3423% damage
Smash crit with ele 6 r6 lance - 2901% damage

Lets not forget than bash stuns monsters and has a quicker animation than smash. While you will have to build it up to the maximum step to achieve these results a 1st stage bash crit under the same circumstances is 2928% damage.

Basically under ideal situation a humans duel weapon bash will be better than a lances smash. Now piercing will probably tip the tables in smashes direction for some enemies but the speed of bash might actually increase it's DPS. Personally, with the current content even without piercing a bash will one shot most mobs and since the combo meter doesn't disappear when changing enemies bash just outclasses smash in every way. It might be a bit different for giants though. They wont have access to Royal Celtics and will have to duel wield blunts.
Slayerj wrote on 2015-04-10 17:33

Quote from JoeyDee9;1270714:
Lets see, lance is 600% smash damage for humans without thames.

Bash is 920% damage without celtics. On an elemental immune enemy it's clear that duel weapon bash will win. On an non elemental immune enemy the max bonus (with a single lined elemental reforge) is 55% for lances and 44% for duel weapons.

AKA 930% lance smashes and 1324.8% bashes. Lets take r6 into consideration now.

Bash crit with two ele 3 r6 weapons - 3423% damage
Smash crit with ele 6 r6 lance - 2901% damage

Lets not forget than bash stuns monsters and has a quicker animation than smash. While you will have to build it up to the maximum step to achieve these results a 1st stage bash crit under the same circumstances is 2928% damage.

Basically under ideal situation a humans duel weapon bash will be better than a lances smash. Now piercing will probably tip the tables in smashes direction for some enemies but the speed of bash might actually increase it's DPS. Personally, with the current content even without piercing a bash will one shot most mobs and since the combo meter doesn't disappear when changing enemies bash just outclasses smash in every way. It might be a bit different for giants though. They wont have access to Royal Celtics and will have to duel wield blunts.

[S]Actually I thought lances had their own smash buff (what? like 20% or something?) Not the 2h buff.[/S]
Scratch that, I thought the 20% dmg and 5% crit bit where just for lance, turns out I was missreading the info.
JoeyDee9 wrote on 2015-04-10 17:44

I personally feel that all they had to do was remove the combo breaking when switching enemies to make it viable. What they have done seems like waaaay too much.
ironwoman wrote on 2015-04-10 17:50

Quote from JoeyDee9;1270714:
Lets see, lance is 600% smash damage for humans without thames.

Bash is 920% damage without celtics. On an elemental immune enemy it's clear that duel weapon bash will win. On an non elemental immune enemy the max bonus (with a single lined elemental reforge) is 55% for lances and 44% for duel weapons.

AKA 930% lance smashes and 1324.8% bashes. Lets take r6 into consideration now.

Bash crit with two ele 3 r6 weapons - 3423% damage
Smash crit with ele 6 r6 lance - 2901% damage

Lets not forget than bash stuns monsters and has a quicker animation than smash. While you will have to build it up to the maximum step to achieve these results a 1st stage bash crit under the same circumstances is 2928% damage.

Basically under ideal situation a humans duel weapon bash will be better than a lances smash. Now piercing will probably tip the tables in smashes direction for some enemies but the speed of bash might actually increase it's DPS. Personally, with the current content even without piercing a bash will one shot most mobs and since the combo meter doesn't disappear when changing enemies bash just outclasses smash in every way. It might be a bit different for giants though. They wont have access to Royal Celtics and will have to duel wield blunts.

I'm not saying Bash is a strong skill, because it is, but there are still some things to consider.

Bash does not get affected by Thames set, so Smash can get increase damage from this.

Also, reforges. To my knowledge, there aren't Bash-related reforges, and Smash reforge can amp up the damage greatly. So Smash still isn't necessarily dead.

It doesn't mean I think Bash because stupidly powerful, because I think it did. Now this almost seems like the Arrow Revolver of Melee, except you literally get 3 times the multiplier of each shot... and I wish I wasn't using the term "literally", but I have to because it really is the case.

People made the case of saying Bash wasn't that useful, and now they made it stupidly broken.
Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-04-10 17:55

Quote from Slayerj;1270716:
[S]Actually I thought lances had their own smash buff (what? like 20% or something?) Not the 2h buff.[/S]
Scratch that, I thought the 20% dmg and 5% crit bit where just for lance, turns out I was missreading the info.

No, that's for all two-handed weapons.

Quote from ironwoman;1270719:
I'm not saying Bash is a strong skill, because it is, but there are still some things to consider.

Bash does not get affected by Thames set, so Smash can get increase damage from this.

Also, reforges. To my knowledge, there aren't Bash-related reforges, and Smash reforge can amp up the damage greatly. So Smash still isn't necessarily dead.

It doesn't mean I think Bash because stupidly powerful, because I think it did. Now this almost seems like the Arrow Revolver of Melee, except you literally get 3 times the multiplier of each shot... and I wish I wasn't using the term "literally", but I have to because it really is the case.

People made the case of saying Bash wasn't that useful, and now they made it stupidly broken.

Then there's Blunt Smash dazing Master Lich and stuff to death. Sure Smash still has some relevance depending on the situation, but overall there's not much reason to use Smash anymore, especially since it STILL gets in the way of party play while Bash actually GREATLY AIDS party play and has numerous advantages over Smash.
willcaster wrote on 2015-04-10 17:57

Dont forget combo cards and its easier to do supportshot + lance smash (specially with human supportshot speed)
800mans wrote on 2015-04-10 18:01

Bash is broken, but isn't lance considered broken as of now (pre-reno)?

1st tier -melee: Maxed-out lance
2nd tier-melee Maxed out lance missing 1-2 reforges
...
9th tier-melee Lances without thames
10th tier melee: dual-wield

20th tier melee: rest of stuff

So in this case the tables just have turned and dual-wield is comparable to lances now. Although it wasn't necessarily balancing, it feels mighty good ( har har) when all the people who went *easy-modeish (cuz thames reforging is not fun)* lances for melee combat see something else come in that is more broken than it.
ironwoman wrote on 2015-04-10 18:03

Quote from Darkboy132;1270720:

Then there's Blunt Smash dazing Master Lich and stuff to death. Sure Smash still has some relevance depending on the situation, but overall there's not much reason to use Smash anymore, especially since it STILL gets in the way of party play while Bash actually GREATLY AIDS party play and has numerous advantages over Smash.

It really depends on how much damage you want to do.
Bash gives you more versatility, but Smash gives you more possible damage output because of all the additional multipliers possible, especially against targets with higher health, and higher your base damage is, more it will be beneficial to your smash damage output.

Also, don't forget Support shot, Smash isn't really in "the way of party play" with this in mind, in fact, it might favor party play even more.
Rydian wrote on 2015-04-10 19:28

Quote from JoeyDee9;1270718:
I personally feel that all they had to do was remove the combo breaking when switching enemies to make it viable. What they have done seems like waaaay too much.
The issue before was the terrible damage. At most ranks, the first 4 hits of the combo did less damage than doing 4 normal melee attacks without the skill.

Bash got over-balanced, I believe.
Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-04-10 19:41

Quote from Rydian;1270734:
The issue before was the terrible damage. At most ranks, the first 4 hits of the combo did less damage than doing 4 normal melee attacks without the skill.

Bash got over-balanced, I believe.

60, 90, 120, 200, and 300 TIMES TWO were reasonably balanced since it was all about building up power. Now its damage is pretty much on par with Smash.

Let's not forget it has a 4.5 second stun.
Tropa wrote on 2015-04-10 19:56

Quote from Darkboy132;1270735:
60, 90, 120, 200, and 300 TIMES TWO were reasonably balanced since it was all about building up power. Now its damage is pretty much on par with Smash.

Let's not forget it has a 4.5 second stun.

Let's not forget we can pretty much destory most content with lance-mill anyways.
Rydian wrote on 2015-04-10 20:02

Quote from Darkboy132;1270735:
TIMES TWO
Oh, I thought it was always one hit regardless of dual-wielding.
Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-04-10 20:05

Quote from Rydian;1270739:
Oh, I thought it was always one hit regardless of dual-wielding.

No, its two hits for double clicking IF the weapon has normal or higher attack speed, doesn't matter whether or not you're dual wielding. It just makes dual wielding more top tier because dual Celtic Royal Knight Swords give +10% Bash damage.

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