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Zeo wrote on 2015-04-21 19:33
Quote from gundamweed;1271708:
Well excuse me, I was under the impression the goal of the renovation was to ultimately give people an incentive to pick close combat (dual wield especially) over lances, and not be about the issue of giant advantages versus humans. I wasn't aware you worked with the devs and they shared their intentions with you. My bad.
That's what I thought they would be doing when they did the renovation but nope... Humans got all the favoritism with bit of attentions for Giants while elves basically got none.
Human master race 4ever.
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Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-04-21 19:39
Quote from Kapra;1271653:
Bash set effect was intended to benefit Human melee. Giant melee already has all of the other advantages.
Dual blunts forever useless then.
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Kapra wrote on 2015-04-22 03:44
Quote from gundamweed;1271708:
Well excuse me, I was under the impression the goal of the renovation was to ultimately give people an incentive to pick close combat (dual wield especially) over lances, and not be about the issue of giant advantages versus humans. I wasn't aware you worked with the devs and they shared their intentions with you. My bad.
I hear yea, I wish it was. =/ To be honest, my only real problem with magic was Spellwalk, which wasn't addressed at all, but I didn't really have a problem with Magic to begin with so I'm fine with that.
But I feel like Archery and Close Combat still have issues that weren't addressed at all. Sure all these new stuff and buffs are nice, but what about stun locks? Ai resets? Invincibility frames? Among other issues.
At least Close Combat can better rival Lances for humans now, though I wish it wasn't just for dual wielding swords.
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Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-04-22 04:55
Quote from Kapra;1271822:
I hear yea, I wish it was. =/ To be honest, my only real problem with magic was Spellwalk, which wasn't addressed at all, but I didn't really have a problem with Magic to begin with so I'm fine with that.
I was pretty concerned with Magic Shields and Shockwave, but my main concern was Meteor Strike. Other than being somewhat bad for party play (lack of impact indicator, doesn't ignore i-frames, etc.), why the hell does a powerful, bigass nuke have drastically weaker hitboxes (50% less damage at most)?
But I feel like Close Combat still have issues that weren't addressed at all. Sure all these new stuff and buffs are nice, but what about stun locks? Ai resets? Invincibility frames? Among other issues.
Charge/Assault Splash may or may not help multi-aggro, but what was the point of lessening the restrictive movement on Defense and Counterattack, which is overall pretty moot?
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Kapra wrote on 2015-04-22 06:08
Quote from Darkboy132;1271834:
I was pretty concerned with Magic Shields and Shockwave
I kind of felt like Magic Shields would be better if we were allowed to run with them, and running with magic wasn't so terrible, though a buff can be understandable for an outdated defensive skill.
But I honestly don't see what's wrong with Shockwave. Shockwave is probably one of my most used magic skills right now (as a sub-mage main) and it is definitely not underpowered, and its cooldown isn't "too long". I feel like lowering its cooldown was pointless.
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Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-04-22 06:28
Quote from Kapra;1271841:
I kind of felt like Magic Shields would be better if we were allowed to run with them, and running with magic wasn't so terrible, though a buff can be understandable for an outdated defensive skill.
But I honestly don't see what's wrong with Shockwave. Shockwave is probably one of my most used magic skills right now (as a sub-mage main) and it is definitely not underpowered, and its cooldown isn't "too long". I feel like lowering its cooldown was pointless.
I'd be fine if Magic Shields were compatible with Spellwalk, really. Shockwave though...
- Mana cost is very high, even potentially higher than Fireball, Thunder, or Hail Storm, which have higher damage output than Shockwave. IMO it should do at least somewhere between 50-100, not 10% every 25 seconds.
- It resets elemental-charged staffs when Hail Storm doesn't. No idea about Meteor, but if it does reset then it shouldn't.
- Like meteor, it has drastically weaker hitboxes. Combined with its low damage output it just needlessly diminishes Shockwave's potential.
However, I don't mage much and never use Shockwave so I may not have enough experience with it to speak for it.
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Rydian wrote on 2015-04-22 10:02
The Magic Shield spells need to be a status effect that lasts for the duration and moves with you if Devcat wants people to actively use and train them outside of talent ranks and stats.
And yeah I think that Shockwave using 10% MP (instead of a number like almost everything else) actually penalizes mages the more MP they have.
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Kaeporo wrote on 2015-04-22 11:04
Quote from Darkboy132;1271848:
I'd be fine if Magic Shields were compatible with Spellwalk, really. Shockwave though...
- Mana cost is very high, even potentially higher than Fireball, Thunder, or Hail Storm, which have higher damage output than Shockwave. IMO it should do at least somewhere between 50-100, not 10% every 25 seconds.
- It resets elemental-charged staffs when Hail Storm doesn't. No idea about Meteor, but if it does reset then it shouldn't.
- Like meteor, it has drastically weaker hitboxes. Combined with its low damage output it just needlessly diminishes Shockwave's potential.
However, I don't mage much and never use Shockwave so I may not have enough experience with it to speak for it.
Shockwave fucking rocks.
1. Mana isn't an issue to end-game mages unless they're spamming CC Firebolt or using Mana Shield.
2. Elemental staves are entirely obsolete. Moot point.
3. Meteor Strike is not a great skill. It's actually really fucking terrible, unlike shockwave. Great skills should have drawbacks.
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Tetosan wrote on 2015-04-23 17:23
Quote from Kaeporo;1271868:
Shockwave fucking rocks.
1. Mana isn't an issue to end-game mages unless they're spamming CC Firebolt or using Mana Shield.
2. Elemental staves are entirely obsolete. Moot point.
3. Meteor Strike is not a great skill. It's actually really fucking terrible, unlike shockwave. Great skills should have drawbacks.
Meteor is only not a Great skill if you're foolish enough to run head first into every battle, else it's High Damage and quite large AoE on R1 is a perfect Opener....
And in fact also a great Ending since most things i fought till now couldn't survive it (except Girgashiy, but a creature having a 95% Damage reduction really doesn't count XD)
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koishi-sempai wrote on 2015-04-23 18:33
imo magic renovation (or really anything devcat's done with magic post genesis) doesn't address the core balance issue which is that melee/range/fighter/gunner/puppetry to an extent have low execution barriers compared to magic and alchemy (sans golem, golem was faceroll shit too) because the former can be used instantly or near instantly (even before genesis it was never hard to get off a windmill or a smash) while the latter need setup time. magic was shit tier from like g14 or so till enlightenment because devcat threw so much max damage at max damage players who made up the vast majority of players that even with a few consolation buffs like removal of evap, mana homesteads, etc, there was no reason to absorb the opportunity cost of using magic when melee and range players could clear the same content just by mashing their instadamage AOEs.
what devcat has done is try to make it easier to set up magic (better load times, shockwave) and inrease the benefit (more damage), to normalize the cost benefit ratio of using magic, and to an extent its been successful but it's been neccessary to essentially make magic a super binary talent where you either get your damage off (basically when you're running MA and you can set up your crisis + lullaby + raincast before anything spawns and destroy them with zero retaliation) and annihilate everything or you get swarmed (stuff like Sulfur Spider Elite where everything's being knocked around, people are doing whatever and that lone spider in the corner aggros you and ruins your thunder/fireball/IS load, your hailstorm channel or your IS blaze combo), you can't load a spell and you're just a meat shield (with the exception of Firebolt which is loadable in under 1.0 seconds, knocks back a target to give you space, can be fired with spellwalk and does a lot of damage; imo firebolt is honestly holding the talent together right now) until your shockwave comes off. all the while you're competing with monster AOE damage coming from puppetry, dual guns, kunai storm and sakura abyss to an extent, and even WMs and Crash Shots which can run upwards of 10k.
pretty much the correct way of balancing would have been to admit that physical max damage had gotten out of control between G14 and Enlightenment, delete Overture, nerf shit like fierce ribbons and similar stuff, reduce the damage from weapons so that you can build a balanced class system with defined strengths and weaknesses instead of "you steamroll everything past x total level".
in a meta where the best crit WMs do like 4-5k and the best crit crash shots do like 3-4k, suddenly alchemy's utility and magic's slow long ranged burst AOE matter without having to put those factors on crack to compete. it also means you don't have to put turbocancer content like girgashy in the game just to make it difficult
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Rydian wrote on 2015-04-23 19:17
The easier access to pages and mana potions at least shows that they know the entry barrier was relatively high.
I'm definitely seeing max damage enchants being a problem nowadays, but the enchanting system could use a balance pass all over.
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Tetosan wrote on 2015-04-23 19:33
Quote from koishi-sempai;1272083:
imo magic renovation (or really anything devcat's done with magic post genesis) doesn't address the core balance issue which is that melee/range/fighter/gunner/puppetry to an extent have low execution barriers compared to magic and alchemy (sans golem, golem was faceroll shit too) because the former can be used instantly or near instantly (even before genesis it was never hard to get off a windmill or a smash) while the latter need setup time. magic was shit tier from like g14 or so till enlightenment because devcat threw so much max damage at max damage players who made up the vast majority of players that even with a few consolation buffs like removal of evap, mana homesteads, etc, there was no reason to absorb the opportunity cost of using magic when melee and range players could clear the same content just by mashing their instadamage AOEs.
what devcat has done is try to make it easier to set up magic (better load times, shockwave) and inrease the benefit (more damage), to normalize the cost benefit ratio of using magic, and to an extent its been successful but it's been neccessary to essentially make magic a super binary talent where you either get your damage off (basically when you're running MA and you can set up your crisis + lullaby + raincast before anything spawns and destroy them with zero retaliation) and annihilate everything or you get swarmed (stuff like Sulfur Spider Elite where everything's being knocked around, people are doing whatever and that lone spider in the corner aggros you and ruins your thunder/fireball/IS load, your hailstorm channel or your IS blaze combo), you can't load a spell and you're just a meat shield (with the exception of Firebolt which is loadable in under 1.0 seconds, knocks back a target to give you space, can be fired with spellwalk and does a lot of damage; imo firebolt is honestly holding the talent together right now) until your shockwave comes off. all the while you're competing with monster AOE damage coming from puppetry, dual guns, kunai storm and sakura abyss to an extent, and even WMs and Crash Shots which can run upwards of 10k.
pretty much the correct way of balancing would have been to admit that physical max damage had gotten out of control between G14 and Enlightenment, delete Overture, nerf shit like fierce ribbons and similar stuff, reduce the damage from weapons so that you can build a balanced class system with defined strengths and weaknesses instead of "you steamroll everything past x total level".
in a meta where the best crit WMs do like 4-5k and the best crit crash shots do like 3-4k, suddenly alchemy's utility and magic's slow long ranged burst AOE matter without having to put those factors on crack to compete. it also means you don't have to put turbocancer content like girgashy in the game just to make it difficult
As much as Magic has that limitation, let's look at Ranged.
Ranged can deal High Damage be really powerful but.... you'll still miss 50% of the time because of lag, server-Client desync and such stuff.
My idea for Ranged is: Nerf Damage! Remove Aiming!
Seriously they could nerf the damage a bit and remove Aiming, the aiming makes Ranged one of the slowest Skillsets. Nowadays in a Party a Ranger doesn't even have to aim anymore, everything will be dead before they get to 90% anyways.
And no by now i don't even want a "chance to miss" thing implemented as barely any other Ranged attack Skillset except Archery/Throwing Attack CAN miss. Magic doesn't miss, Guns don't miss and you have no idea why. i'm pretty sure i'm able to dodge a Firebolt thrown at me if i can evade an Arrow.
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Rydian wrote on 2015-04-23 20:36
Actually guns and shurikens have a chance to miss with normal attacks. Shurikens seem to miss more often.
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Kaeporo wrote on 2015-04-23 21:21
Quote from Tetosan;1272074:
Meteor is only not a Great skill if you're foolish enough to run head first into every battle, else it's High Damage and quite large AoE on R1 is a perfect Opener....
And in fact also a great Ending since most things i fought till now couldn't survive it (except Girgashiy, but a creature having a 95% Damage reduction really doesn't count XD)
Meteor Strike sucks because it has hugely variable damage. This is further compounded by the fact that its damage decreases towards the outer rim (which isn't an issue for Shockwave) due to its lengthy cooldown. They did nothing to address this aspect of the skill; further proof DevCat has no idea what's up.
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Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-04-23 23:01
Quote from Kaeporo;1271868:
Shockwave fucking rocks.
I'm still not seeing it. Other than a free "get out of sticky situations card", with only 200~ magic attack from int and staff, my Shockwave crits 3k on a brown fox at center range. Some near end-game mages I've met (who have all rank 1 magic, a fuckton of int, and/or some high-end gear) even told me that Shockwave is generally not very useful outside of its instant pushback.