Thoughts on Renovation?

• Rydian wrote on 2015-05-29 08:32
  I think the arguments are generally...
  
  Darkboy: "The damage is insane."
  Ironwoman: "That damage is very rare, archery can do more with the same amount of work, and the animation time means the DPS and usability, what actually matter in-game, is still bad."
  
  In which case I have to agree with Ironwoman.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2015-05-29 08:57

  Quote from Rydian;1276783:

  I think the arguments are generally...
  
  Darkboy: "The damage is insane."
  Ironwoman: "That damage is very rare, archery can do more with the same amount of work, and the animation time means the DPS and usability, what actually matter in-game, is still bad."
  
  In which case I have to agree with Ironwoman.

  
  
  That damage isn't "rare" and archery can't do more with the same amount of work. It can do a whole lot more but it'll take a hell of a lot of effort (not to mention, dexterity is such a shitty stat compared to strength).
  
  Points 1 and 2 aren't true.
  
  Points 3 is largely irrelevant. Lightning Rod has "terrible DPS".
  
  Point 4 is the crippling argument against Throwing Attack. You don't need to make up shit to deface the skill when after you take this into account. The fact that it takes up two weapon slots and has no utility makes it awful.
  
  

  Quote from Darkboy132;1276667:

  That's essentially the only thing they did to "improve" archery; give Giants an overpowered Throwing Attack that's potentially on par with endgame Human/Elf archery. Everything else is minor tweaks that don't even improve the skills.
  
  Oh, and some new crossbows with piercing level.[/SPOILER]

  
  
  Red is pretty accurate, since they didn't do shit to improve archery.
  
  Blue isn't since Throwing Attack isn't overpowered. As always, usage dictates standing (ala Firebolt).
  
  If you ignore the section highlighted in blue, his post is spot on. The initial arguments against that section weren't entirely accurate, so I challenged them.
• Rydian wrote on 2015-05-29 09:36
  Really, so, you've gotten both builds with the archery update, elf versus giant in ranged DPS?
  
  Nice, why don't you show us? I'd love to see your tests and thoughts on actually trying this stuff out, which it appears you have done, correct?
• Kaeporo wrote on 2015-05-29 09:45

  Quote from Rydian;1276785:

  Really, so, you've gotten both builds with the archery update, elf versus giant in ranged DPS?
  
  Nice, why don't you show us? I'd love to see your tests and thoughts on actually trying this stuff out, which it appears you have done, correct?

  
  
  Don't be an asshole.
  
  We didn't need first-hand experience with Final Hit to know that it was massively overpowered before it hit NA.
  
  I can use my 25,000 levels of experience across all of my characters and my experience with fully gearing all talents to analyse patch notes with some degree of accuracy. Don't think for a second that i'm going to let you discredit my understanding of Mabinogi's meta-game with some fucking fallacious logic.
• Rydian wrote on 2015-05-29 10:18

  Quote from Kaeporo;1276786:

  We didn't need first-hand experience with Final Hit to know that it was massively overpowered before it hit NA.

  The comparison on pre-reno FH to post-reno FH is very simple.
  
  100% vs. 400% at rank 1.
  
  See? That's it, post-reno is ~4x as strong at rank 1 which is a huge damage buff, simple comparison.
  
  Now what about giant ranged attack versus archery post-reno? A lot more goes into it.
  
  

  Quote from Kaeporo;1276786:

  fucking fallacious logic.

  I'm pretty sure that "You have not experienced the update" and "I don't see any math to back it up" are valid arguments.
  
  I asked you for details.
  - If you have them, give them.
  - If you do not have them, then you're making assumptions just like the rest.
• Tyskiyomy wrote on 2015-05-29 13:04

  Quote from Kaeporo;1276780:

  Firebolt with a Spirit Fire Wand heavily lacked utility but was chastised by the community as one of the more centralizing components of the meta-game.

  
  
  But firebolt didn't/doesn't lack utility when you can use things like fireball and Shockwave. And also you could add in a guard cylinder to get a whole skill set with it. In comparison to just throwing attack with an atlat.
  
  (Aside from basic melee attacks since they both can do it)
  
  Also firebolt is able to be spammed, and fast with reforges, for either quick mob clearing or dps on a boss. That's another reason it was seen as really good for this highly debate inducing topic of "meta-game".
  [SIZE="1"]Don't kill me; u;[/SIZE]
• koishi-sempai wrote on 2015-05-29 17:28
  The thing is that nobody used it. People overwhelmingly opt for range/guns/close combat/lances for single target. Why is this? Imo because it was at best only borderline OP because it has clear drawbacks:
  
  1: Slow progression curve (heavy investment in the skillset has severely diminishing returns)
  2: Caps out quickly due to wonky damage formula
  3: Loses heavy DPS against high protection targets due to no piercing and needing crit enchants due to having 0 weapon crit
  4: Absurdly expensive to cap out compared to other setups though Tribolt Wand helps.
  5: High maint costs with Spirit Fire Wand
  6: High resource costs if not a developed and well stocked mage
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-05-29 17:44

  Quote from Kaeporo;1276784:

  Blue isn't since Throwing Attack isn't overpowered. As always, usage dictates standing (ala Firebolt).

  
  
  If we're going on racial differences, then it kind of is. Giants are supposed to pale in archery compared to humans and elves. IIRC the old Throwing Attack had decent damage output.
  
  Now its damage got buffed massively: a 99% accurate javelin up to even at 2400 distance, 900% damage on a weapon that takes 3 strength for 1 max damage, with a 4 second cooldown. It's now competing too well with Human and Elf archery, which goes against everything about that one downside.
  
  I'd rather Atlatls be removed and Javelins equippable in the left hand slot, being an option over Shields, while greatly reducing Throwing Attack max range to "semi-melee" distance so it'll effectively be a short-ranged stunner and combo into melee well (after all, it is a close combat skill). It'll be more versatile, viable, and possibly make Giants less Shield-reliant, all while leaving Giants "inferior" in Archery.
  Oh, and slightly shrinking Javelin's inventory size to be able to carry more.
• Esileruf wrote on 2015-05-29 17:51

  Quote from koishi-sempai;1276816:

  The thing is that nobody used it. People overwhelmingly opt for range/guns/close combat/lances for single target. Why is this? Imo because it was at best only borderline OP because it has clear drawbacks:
  
  1: Slow progression curve (heavy investment in the skillset has severely diminishing returns)
  2: Caps out quickly due to wonky damage formula
  3: Loses heavy DPS against high protection targets due to no piercing and needing crit enchants due to having 0 weapon crit
  4: Absurdly expensive to cap out compared to other setups though Tribolt Wand helps.
  5: High maint costs with Spirit Fire Wand
  6: High resource costs if not a developed and well stocked mage

  
  
  I'm gonna have to challenge most of these points.
  
  1) I wont argue with you there, The AP into the skillset is nightmarish and it takes another 2000 on top of it to cap int iirc. It also becomes hellish to break 400 matk and further, as you have to rely more on reforges and enchants from then-on.
  2) The wonky damage formula is retarded, yes, but it has three separate 'shutes' for damage, via mastery(+reforges), Physical damage(Enchants and BFO), and matk(reforges, enchants, titles). Based on the skill's multipliers these can reach stupid amounts. Its why Lightning rod, with an astounding 12 matk modifier AND a +200% damage multiplier, along with firebolt having not only its x6.5 end charge but the +150% damage from MWM, can reach high. Small numbers into big modifiers make for large numbers. Its why fireball's damage caps out that quickly: Because it lacks a respectable modifier of any sort. Damage files into it badly as well compared to IS or Thunder, because it adds to the huge 2500 damage number, instead of a smaller number to be multiplied.
  3) I wont argue with this here except for the crit part. Without any of my crit-specific enchants, I have -23% crit. -35% if you include rebis. With a spirit fire wand it is still laughably easy to crit just about anything except for white dragon and girg. The issue with high protection targets isn't loss of DPS against lance, its loss of DPS against brionac shear. I don't even bother using my firebolt wand a good chunk of the time in WD or BD unless I'm just deciding to cap support role damage and then afk. The same with merrow and Duke as well. Large-class bosses aren't viable to kill with magic if brio shear is included in the mix. You can still do damage, but not as much as other skillsts.
  4) No more than any other skillset. I'm getting max damage enchants because the matk enchants suck, and its not that hard to build a firebolt+mana reduction enhance set without killing too much damage. When it comes to reforges, Only if you consider vivace magic speed reforges can it out-do. Magic has tops three reforges needed, about the same as any other skillset (Cast speed/matk/firebolt max, blaze damage, and bolt mastery on the hat) The Spirit Fire Wand isn't that big of a requirement esp. if you just wait for high-intake gem events. I've gotten a near capped wand and not spent a dime on gems because of the Blood Diamonds(aka Liar Event) and the Potion Fishing Event as well. A s6 savage or Tribolt works wonderfully instead.
  5: Bless the damn thing and KEEP it blessed. I spammed saga for six hours straight and used one repair wand, using the wand on just the two bosses. if I had used it in the cessair room, I might have needed two. Using an unblessed spirit fire wand is beyond insane, and its not that hard to keep it repaired. Proffing 10~20 fire wands takes about 20 minutes each w/o repair for an age 25 alt on thursday. Let loose the AIs or do-it-yourself, premium service also makes it go FAR faster. Yes yes you repair far more than most/other spirit weapons but that's because you're actually a viable weapon instead of a showpiece.
  6: Not arguing here either. Mana potions are an issue until you decide to reach about 1000 MP with r1 inspiration. Then unless you start going HARD or not hybridizing, you're not gonna drain your mana as badly.
• ironwoman wrote on 2015-05-29 18:05
  If we really want to talk more about range renovation, probably best you check out this link: https://www.mabinogi.pe.kr/bbs/zboard.php?id=forum&no=950
  
  This is the big discussion on Giant's Throwing Attack. Too buffed or nah?
  
  The general trend of the arguments agree with what I have to say about Throwing Attack. The possible DPS from throwing attack indeed can match human magnum, but that's only if you're able to hit the high end damage all the time, which we know won't happen. Average damage wise, human magnum still outdamages it by far. And then there's also issues of utility and what not. 4 seconds is deemed too long of a cooldown to kill quickly as possible. Firebolt, on the other hand, has short enough casting time for utility to be not much of an issue.
  
  There are more things people have to say which can be found in the link.
• Slayerj wrote on 2015-05-29 19:14
  Wow...where the hell did this post go. >.>
  
  [SPOILER="Throwing attack thingy, I guess?"]As on this touchy subject of throwing attack, let's just wait and see? (I was informed that that video was complete bull shit sorta or something like that. Oh well.)[/SPOILER]
  
  
  Back on topic however, seeing as I haven't touched the range changes myself, I'm uncertain if it'll be all that well.
  
  Urgent Shot Requires you to click again (unless use skill on target is turned on and idk if that's a good idea for range or not) in order to use it. It does heavy push back which has it's pros and cons, and the speed up to the next aimed skill can help I suppose. Though I wish they had done a lot more with range I still can't say anything. I'm still not even 100% sure what the 70% aim change is, and I don't think anyone else does either.
  
  I always thought in the long forgotten past, that 80% was the "Fucking god damn it I always fucking miss every single damn shot I fire at 80% Fuck this game, fuck range, FUCK EVERYTHING! *breaks bow*"
  
  A few skills needed changes honestly in the way of aiming speed and urgent shot fits that EVERY SO OFTEN, but not all the time. But again, I can't say anything until we get it.
  
  The main problems, outside of the main problems, that I have found with range all string from TINY moments of lag. I can get around these little errors if I use the hot keys to load and fire the skills instead of clicking the mouse, but eh.. These problems being a slight bit of lag hitting me for seemingly no reason right as I click to fire sometimes, resulting in the game thinking I am still targeting the monster and I am still holding down the mouse button, thus a flurry of constantly 10% or so misses as the skill loads until I click the mouse again.
• Rydian wrote on 2015-05-30 06:37

  Quote from koishi-sempai;1276816:

  clear drawbacks:

  Dura loss on CC firebolt hurts too.
  
  

  Quote from ironwoman;1276822:

  4 seconds is deemed too long of a cooldown to kill quickly as possible. Firebolt, on the other hand, has short enough casting time for utility to be not much of an issue.

  Firebolt also forces a knockdown, so even with no speed increases you can keep anything that doesn't have AHS stunlocked and it'll never miss.
• Daakun wrote on 2015-06-02 18:32
  Now that've I've seen it in action, I think I've gotta say... Final Hit isn't as good as it looks on paper.
  The human's greatest enemy is the long dungeon hallway. :p
• Odinwolfe wrote on 2015-06-02 22:19

  Quote from Daakun;1277160:

  ~snip~
  The human's greatest enemy is the long dungeon hallway. :p

  
  lol'd
  too true
• Rynn wrote on 2015-06-02 22:25

  Quote from Daakun;1277160:

  Now that've I've seen it in action, I think I've gotta say... Final Hit isn't as good as it looks on paper.
  The human's greatest enemy is the long dungeon hallway. :p

  
  
  There's little to no reason to use final hit in dungeons or anywhere that would make you walk a long distance after activation though.