[KR] GM Beilet's Review on Milletian Q&A Session, "Secret, Talk" // 6th of November,

• Froon wrote on 2015-11-25 22:59

  Quote from TheDarkPaladin;1290767:

  obviously you haven't played elf, at least not nearly enough
  when you main elf you can really feel the difference in treatment compared to humans and even giants, and this is not a good thing
  
  also, removing hide would only hurt elves, especially newer ones

  I have not personally leveled/ranked skills on an elf, but I have always had access to an elf with pretty much capped stats and have played on it regularly. and yes, hide gives lower leveled elves huge advantages in content they can clear. Hydra+hide is ridiculous for low levels. so naturally if you buff range tab, or elves in any way to be on the same level as humans/giants, you'd take away hide.
  
  Elves are literally magnum shot. You could achieve best DPS with magnum, if you didn't build for magnum, of course you'd feel weak compared to other races. Again, it's as if I played a giant and didn't build for smash pre bash releasing. Bash is dumb for the amount of DPS it gets with no reforges, and should be nerfed or removed if Range doesn't have something similar. but that's it as far as elf vs giant goes. It was ALMOST completely balanced prior to the combat renovation, despite people who complained about elves being severely weak.
• Syliara wrote on 2015-11-25 23:08

  Quote from Brandonsmall;1290765:

  I think giants got shafted more than elves in the combat renovation, because at least elves remain top archers while being bad at melee(as advertised), where as giants are underwhelming in melee compared to humans, when advertisement states giants sacrifice any range/massive amounts of dex for better melee. Problem for elves is melee being far superior to range currently, that needs to be fixed. Maybe also give them AR for whatever reason. People whine that elves have always been picked on, and that's just not true. Prior to FH/Bash update, elf mag, because of speed at which you can fire at / FS, was highest single target DPS in game(keeping in mind latency issues for firebolt on NA). Elves were definitely not victims prior to combat renovation. More single target DPS than humans, and pretty much equal to giants.
  
  People who go "elves have always been so bad!! so horrible compared to both giants and humans!!" just like to play the victim, and or were not playing the race to the strength it had. It's like if I played as a giant, and I didn't use smash. then I went on to complain about how horrible my race is because I don't get any range skills.
  
  tl;dr buff range tab or nerf combat tab. nerf human combat in comparison to giant combat. everything's fixed. Or just revert the combat renovation. Bash is overkill, and 400% final hit each hit is just dumb. Maybe do something about elves having less firebolt damage. Also remove the hide skill.

  
  
  

  [Image: http://puu.sh/lyMze/abeef7db43.jpg]

  
  
  It states that they gain bonuses in melee not that they are supposed to be the best or better than another race in melee. People keep making these assumptions that giants are supposed to be guaranteed to be the best in melee or be overwhelmingly better in all melee aspects than any other race when its never really stated that they are. This advertisement is still 100% correct when it comes down to the bonuses to melee since they still do receive racial benefits over other races for melee skills. Regardless of what people keep saying about what is "advertised" for racial benefits there isnt really any advertisements that specifically state the race has to be better in one aspect than another race. This isnt to say I think the races are balanced, but its annoying when people keep stating that nexon is lieing about advertising the races benefits when technically they havent yet. If you can show me an advertisement that specifically states races need to be better in one aspect than another race then show me please because I looked for it and couldn't find it.
• Froon wrote on 2015-11-25 23:18

  Quote from Syliara;1290769:

  [Image: http://puu.sh/lyMze/abeef7db43.jpg]

  
  
  It states that they gain bonuses in melee not that they are supposed to be the best or better than another race in melee. People keep making these assumptions that giants are supposed to be guaranteed to be the best in melee or be overwhelmingly better in all melee aspects than any other race when its never really stated that they are. This advertisement is still 100% correct when it comes down to the bonuses to melee since they still do receive racial benefits over other races for melee skills. Regardless of what people keep saying about what is "advertised" for racial benefits there isnt really any advertisements that specifically state the race has to be better in one aspect than another race. This isnt to say I think the races are balanced, but its annoying when people keep stating that nexon is lieing about advertising the races benefits when technically they havent yet. If you can show me an advertisement that specifically states races need to be better in one aspect than another race then show me please because I looked for it and couldn't find it.

  ok, giants don't receive bonuses to all melee skills. Humans have superior bash(by far if I might add.), and at the current cap having a little more strength from leveling up means nothing, because humans and giants both get 1500. It's misleading, it can be considered /false advertisement/ now. IT was accurate at the time of release, not anymore.
  
  You defend Devcat by saying "TECHNICALLLLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY they never said this.", but it doesn't really mean anything. it's implied. but currently choosing a giant is just handicapping yourself in every aspect that matters compared to humans. Very poor game management.
• Syliara wrote on 2015-11-25 23:29

  Quote from Froon;1290770:

  ok, giants don't receive bonuses to all melee skills. Humans have superior bash(by far if I might add.), and at the current cap having a little more strength from leveling up means nothing, because humans and giants both get 1500. It's misleading, it can be considered /false advertisement/ now. IT was accurate at the time of release, not anymore.
  
  You defend Devcat by saying "TECHNICALLLLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY they never said this.", but it doesn't really mean anything. it's implied. but currently choosing a giant is just handicapping yourself in every aspect that matters compared to humans. Very poor game management.

  
  
  If you want to get technical, they dont have bonuses to the 2 new skills that were added in melee renovation but they also dont have a loss in those skills. For other skills they do have bonuses and have always had bonuses. Humans and giants both get 1500 at end game, but if your mid tier or low level you can easily notice the difference. Hell I still dont cap unless im like level 120 in close combat with hot chocolate cater and im like 100 str off human cap. It really isnt considered false advertisement honestly, I mean they only dont get bonuses to like 2 skills in comparison to humans and they never stated that the race has to be better than all others in melee.
  
  Im only defending nexon because people keep putting words in their mouths lately and its unfair even for nexon to keep saying these things as if nexon keeps stating them when they dont. Implication does not mean its fact, and the implication only comes from players that want to paraphrase nexon's words. Like I said before, I'm not defending the racial imbalance, but i think its unfair to keep putting these words in nexon's mouth out of salt and anger when thats one of the only things they HAVENT done wrong (the advertisement). If you want to be nitpicky about it you can say not 100% of melee skills have a bonus in the hands of giants, but most do.
  
  Dont let salt and anger add bias to your arguments, try and be objective instead of defaming a company based on nitpicky things like this. The racial imbalance is justified, but picking on things like this is unfair.
• TheDarkPaladin wrote on 2015-11-25 23:36

  Quote from Froon;1290770:

  ok, giants don't receive bonuses to all melee skills. Humans have superior bash(by far if I might add.), and at the current cap having a little more strength from leveling up means nothing, because humans and giants both get 1500. It's misleading, it can be considered /false advertisement/ now. IT was accurate at the time of release, not anymore.
  
  You defend Devcat by saying "TECHNICALLLLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY they never said this.", but it doesn't really mean anything. it's implied. but currently choosing a giant is just handicapping yourself in every aspect that matters compared to humans. Very poor game management.

  
  
  the only way humans have a better bash is with the CRK swords, outside of that i see no real advantage in bash for humans over giants
• Froon wrote on 2015-11-25 23:38

  Quote from Syliara;1290771:

  If you want to get technical, they dont have bonuses to the 2 new skills that were added in melee renovation but they also dont have a loss in those skills. For other skills they do have bonuses and have always had bonuses. Humans and giants both get 1500 at end game, but if your mid tier or low level you can easily notice the difference. Hell I still dont cap unless im like level 120 in close combat with hot chocolate cater and im like 100 str off human cap. It really isnt considered false advertisement honestly, I mean they only dont get bonuses to like 2 skills in comparison to humans and they never stated that the race has to be better than all others in melee.
  
  Im only defending nexon because people keep putting words in their mouths lately and its unfair even for nexon to keep saying these things as if nexon keeps stating them when they dont. Implication does not mean its fact, and the implication only comes from players that want to paraphrase nexon's words. Like I said before, I'm not defending the racial imbalance, but i think its unfair to keep putting these words in nexon's mouth out of salt and anger when thats one of the only things they HAVENT done wrong (the advertisement). If you want to be nitpicky about it you can say not 100% of melee skills have a bonus in the hands of giants, but most do.
  
  Dont let salt and anger add bias to your arguments, try and be objective instead of defaming a company based on nitpicky things like this. The racial imbalance is justified, but picking on things like this is unfair.

  Technically humans receive a bash bonus, while giants get nothing for the skill. That's a loss, especially when bash is the only thing comparable to final hit. Also the fact giants can't dual wield fast bash is a huge loss too.
  
  and okay, I admit technically it's not false advertisement. but if I were a new player, I'd go "oh! giants are superior in the combat tab by what's shown here, and that's the tab I'd like to focus on. I don't have interest in range." then later in the game realize that all I did was handicap myself. This is still poor game management, even if they aren't falsely advertising. I liked the take the new director was going with the generations, but he knows nothing about game balance and how things should work race wise. Also if his solution for this is giving giants even more strength while keeping the current stat cap, it's going to fix nothing.
  
  

  Quote from TheDarkPaladin;1290772:

  the only way humans have a better bash is with the CRK swords, outside of that i see no real advantage in bash for humans over giants

  "Also the fact giants can't dual wield fast bash is a huge loss too." This is a huge loss in damage actually. People try to justify it by saying Fanatic gets piercing, but it's no where near enough to make up. Especially considering you peel bosses(black/white dragon), and having insane bash damage only matters for bosses.
• Syliara wrote on 2015-11-25 23:57

  Quote from Froon;1290773:

  Technically humans receive a bash bonus, while giants get nothing for the skill. That's a loss, especially when bash is the only thing comparable to final hit. Also the fact giants can't dual wield fast bash is a huge loss too.
  
  and okay, I admit technically it's not false advertisement. but if I were a new player, I'd go "oh! giants are superior in the combat tab by what's shown here, and that's the tab I'd like to focus on. I don't have interest in range." then later in the game realize that all I did was handicap myself. This is still poor game management, even if they aren't falsely advertising. I liked the take the new director was going with the generations, but he knows nothing about game balance and how things should work race wise. Also if his solution for this is giving giants even more strength while keeping the current stat cap, it's going to fix nothing.
  
  "Also the fact giants can't dual wield fast bash is a huge loss too." This is a huge loss in damage actually. People try to justify it by saying Fanatic gets piercing, but it's no where near enough to make up. Especially considering you peel bosses(black/white dragon), and having insane bash damage only matters for bosses.

  
  
  You realize that fanatics are fast enough to get double bash right? Thats the reason people use fanatics.... It has nothing to do with piercing... The reason crk's are better is because of bash enhancement set effect and the difference isnt really that big. In the end giant bash is almost on par with crk bash.
• Froon wrote on 2015-11-26 00:02

  Quote from Syliara;1290774:

  You realize that fanatics are fast enough to get double bash right? Thats the reason people use fanatics.... It has nothing to do with piercing... The reason crk's are better is because of bash enhancement set effect and the difference isnt really that big. In the end giant bash is almost on par with crk bash.

  I said dual wield fast bash specifically because dual wield provides you with a very significant damage boost when you take into consideration dual wield enchants. Yes Fanatic can fast bash too, but it's lacking in damage, by a lot. Also humans have the option for Fanatic bash, giants don't have it for dual wield. Human capped bash almost hits 2x as much as a giant's capped bash. Testing Fanatic vs dual wield celtics side by side with my friend, both capped stats/fully buffed, he hit about 2x my max bash. No ele.
• Syliara wrote on 2015-11-26 00:36

  Quote from Froon;1290775:

  I said dual wield fast bash specifically because dual wield provides you with a very significant damage boost when you take into consideration dual wield enchants. Yes Fanatic can fast bash too, but it's lacking in damage, by a lot. Also humans have the option for Fanatic bash, giants don't have it for dual wield. Human capped bash almost hits 2x as much as a giant's capped bash. Testing Fanatic vs dual wield celtics side by side with my friend, both capped stats/fully buffed, he hit about 2x my max bash. No ele.

  
  
  Someone did the math a while ago on decked out fanatics compared to decked out crks. The damage difference from ele 3 on each crk compared to ele 6 on fanatic was almost not existant. The damage difference on non ele crk's and fanatic is somewhere around 8%, this is taking into consideration mobs with any form of prot which is really all that matters in the end unless you want pretty numbers. Keep in mind giants can use cooking pot along side fanatic to further their maximum damage with reforges.
• Froon wrote on 2015-11-26 00:43

  Quote from Syliara;1290779:

  Someone did the math a while ago on decked out fanatics compared to decked out crks. The damage difference from ele 3 on each crk compared to ele 6 on fanatic was almost not existant. The damage difference on non ele crk's and fanatic is somewhere around 8%, this is taking into consideration mobs with any form of prot which is really all that matters in the end unless you want pretty numbers. Keep in mind giants can use cooking pot along side fanatic to further their maximum damage with reforges.

  Source? personal testing(no ele, don't take ele into the equation it's a pointless reforge end game other than bragging about a number) and math with dual wield/skill formula suggests 100% against Fanatic coming anywhere near CRK damage. I did not test with a max damage shield though, this is true. mine was like +10. Also numbers? Specific amount of damage hit. Because my friend is 40k+ bash decked out without ele, i'm about 25k this is a HUGE difference. My sword having best enchants for Fanatic, his having best for dual wield. Everything's R6.
• Syliara wrote on 2015-11-26 00:46

  Quote from Froon;1290781:

  Source? personal testing(no ele, don't take ele into the equation it's a pointless reforge end game other than bragging about a number) and math with dual wield/skill formula suggests 100% against Fanatic coming anywhere near CRK damage. I did not test with a max damage shield though, this is true. mine was like +10.

  
  
  I dont honestly know, I think it was somewhere in small questions thread but I do remember it and have a friend that remembers it as well. Was basically back when melee renovation was released. Not going to dig for it because kinda busy atm.
• Rynn wrote on 2015-11-26 00:55
  Difference on enemies with actual prot is not -that- large.
  
  Endgame non-ele you're looking at like ~1400 raw dmg +10% bash with dual-CRK vs ~1200 raw dmg with -20 prot or something like that. Ele 6 vs ele 3 + 3 balances it out a little, but ele these days is for raccoons and barrier spikes yeah...
  
  CRK also are fast speed, so they can execute bash faster on a stationary target... and then you have FH easy access to...
• Kapra wrote on 2015-11-26 04:46
  I don't care if Elven Magnum is OP, nerf it, buff Elves, not just Archery. I am not going to define an entire race on one skill or one skillset. I am not going to debate about whether Human vs Giant is or isn't imbalanced because I have only ever played Elves and Humans, and can definitely say there is a problem in the Human vs Elf case. Simply buffing one skillset (which'd effect both races and not change the state of affairs, only power creep), or buffing a skillset for one race isn't enough. They either need to give elves a significant boost in Dex and/or Int, or add some completely new, gamechanging role. (Also as someone who has touched almost every skillset, I find archery to boring-est of all. So knowing that, it may help/hurt my argument.)
• Daakun wrote on 2015-11-26 13:41
  Here's a timeline that I feel illustrates the racial balance problems.
  
  

  
  
  • The game is new. Archery is the best thing once you really get going simply because there's far more dex to be earned than strength.
    
    
  • Elves and Giants are added.
    Elves are weaksauce at everything that isn't archery, but that's okay because archery is still the best option for endgame.
    Giants quite literally trade archery for being better in melee, which is decent because not everyone has the time to bother with life skills.
    
    
  • New skills work to close to the available str/dex gap.
    
    
  • Due to the way the damage formulas work, melee passes archery for raw damage from stats.
    Elves are sad, giants are happy.
    
    
  • Genesis update hits. Melee is a whole lot more reliable without having to worry about skill load times.
    Elves are curled up in the corner crying, giants are hyped.
    
    
  • Yet more skillsets are added, all of them granting str, closing the str/dex gap even further.
    
    
  • Renovation update hits.
    Archery isn't rescued from the trash heap and giants suddenly find humans are a lot better than them at the skillset they traded an entire skillset's worth of stats to get a bonus to.
    
• Froon wrote on 2015-12-03 21:55

  Quote from Daakun;1290804:

  Here's a timeline that I feel illustrates the racial balance problems.
  
  

  
  
  • The game is new. Archery is the best thing once you really get going simply because there's far more dex to be earned than strength.
    
    
  • Elves and Giants are added.
    Elves are weaksauce at everything that isn't archery, but that's okay because archery is still the best option for endgame.
    Giants quite literally trade archery for being better in melee, which is decent because not everyone has the time to bother with life skills.
    
    
  • New skills work to close to the available str/dex gap.
    
    
  • Due to the way the damage formulas work, melee passes archery for raw damage from stats.
    Elves are sad, giants are happy.
    
    
  • Genesis update hits. Melee is a whole lot more reliable without having to worry about skill load times.
    Elves are curled up in the corner crying, giants are hyped.
    
    
  • Yet more skillsets are added, all of them granting str, closing the str/dex gap even further.
    
    
  • Renovation update hits.
    Archery isn't rescued from the trash heap and giants suddenly find humans are a lot better than them at the skillset they traded an entire skillset's worth of stats to get a bonus to.
    

  Good analysis.
  
  

  Quote from Kapra;1290798:

  I don't care if Elven Magnum is OP, nerf it, buff Elves, not just Archery. I am not going to define an entire race on one skill or one skillset. I am not going to debate about whether Human vs Giant is or isn't imbalanced because I have only ever played Elves and Humans, and can definitely say there is a problem in the Human vs Elf case. Simply buffing one skillset (which'd effect both races and not change the state of affairs, only power creep), or buffing a skillset for one race isn't enough. They either need to give elves a significant boost in Dex and/or Int, or add some completely new, gamechanging role. (Also as someone who has touched almost every skillset, I find archery to boring-est of all. So knowing that, it may help/hurt my argument.)

  I don't mean Elves shouldn't complain, they definitely should LOL. I just mean at the VERY LEAST, they remained strongest in the area they were supposed to be, but it is now a very weak area. Also I'm not sure how much giving extra stats to races compared to others will change anything "end game", unless they raise the stat cap of 1500. I'm hoping they plan on doing something bigger.