Evie: The Battle Scythe

• Mama wrote on 2010-12-28 20:49

  Quote from Singleuseonly;266105:

  Int Mastery, Magic Mastery, Magic Critical Hits, Smash Mastery.
  
  
  
  Maybe get a section just for Critical Hit going through both the PROS and cons of it. Though I agree with the idea that it should never be ranked, lots find it biased apparently o.0
  Pros:
  -increased chance of knocking down bosses
  -drains more when Scythe 2 crits
  Cons:
  -harder to deal with trash mobs

  
  
  This would be more accurate if scythes just did LLLL all day to clear trash, and I would agree to never rank it. But with skills like MoD and especially thread aforementioned(?), it really cancels out the trash mob argument since it has very little distance discretion, definitely more than a physical crit would ever send a mob. Basically, if it ever does make you miss that game changing combo, chances are you won't even notice it.
  
  this is contrast to how the guide makes it seem like the end of the world. blabla, discretion, newbs, etc
• CodeS wrote on 2010-12-28 21:12

  Quote from Phoenix~Lament;265243:

  Thirded.
  
  I think Tasha pushes his/her opinions on the more controversial skills a little too much, and though this guide is already a good resource for beginners most beginners looking for a guide are looking for as unbiased a guide as possible from as neutral and experienced player as possible. I feel like the Critical hit section has too much personal opinion wrapped in it and beginners will probably take that as fact.

  
  
  It's a fact that if you have high "critical hit", it can cost you some cons. Sure some people would think differently, but the cons is still a cons. We don't have all of the boat like Korea so we couldn't confirm if "Critical Hit" really costly for Evie.
  But Tasha got it from a Korean, who play Mabinogi Heroes in korea, so the chance that it is true pretty high; we just need confirmation from our own experience.
  My Point: The "Critical Hit" Section is pretty much a fact
  
  Fact- a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true
  source: Dictionary
• Singleuseonly wrote on 2010-12-29 00:31

  Quote from Mama;266118:

  This would be more accurate if scythes just did LLLL all day to clear trash

  
  I know a vast majority of the Scythes I know/play with use Invisible Loom + Bloody Thread all day long. It's probably the most time efficient if your Quake Hell can't kill them in one hit. It also gives a lot of SP. But yeah, for those who don't like the animation of Invisible Loom or something, ranking critical hit would basically be a plus.
  
  

  Quote from CodeS;266147:

  It's a fact that if you have high "critical hit", it can cost you some cons. Sure some people would think differently, but the cons is still a cons. We don't have all of the boat like Korea so we couldn't confirm if "Critical Hit" really costly for Evie.
  But Tasha got it from a Korean, who play Mabinogi Heroes in korea, so the chance that it is true pretty high; we just need confirmation from our own experience.
  My Point: The "Critical Hit" Section is pretty much a fact
  
  Fact- a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true
  source: Dictionary

  
  I do believe that Papa and Mama play on the KR servers as well. So their opinions aren't exactly moot.
  That doesn't change the fact that the critical hit section is a bit biased by not mentioning any possible pros of critical hit.
• Kueh wrote on 2010-12-29 01:24

  Quote from CodeS;266147:

  My Point: The "Critical Hit" Section is pretty much a fact
  
  Fact- a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true
  source: Dictionary

  
  
  But there isn't a wrong way to build a character. No matter what anyone says, if you feel like you want to pump up your int mastery on your lann then you can.
  
  Besides, as I've said before, it really depends on the way the user aims. The way I usually solo trash mobs never lets them get hit by the first part of smashes anyway.
• Papa wrote on 2010-12-29 01:26

  Quote from CodeS;266147:

  Space

  
  
  This entire post pissed me off for some reason. But yes, we both play on KR as well. Like Mama said, if it ever does happen, you wont even notice at all. If its from LLLR or LLLLR, the resulting snap will kill it and everything around it. If its from LLR, it wont matter. The shockwave reaches.
  
  The opinion of ONE korean player should definitely not be taken so seriously. Its even reached the point where all new people hail this entire Critical Hit character destruction.
  
  Now... Ill ask you ALL to do something. Whoever does have Critical Hit maxed, or at least high/moderate, go try it, without the snap. Ive been doing it on my Evie all day and crit or not, the downswing DOES hit them. So...?
• Phoenix~Lament wrote on 2010-12-29 02:02

  Quote from Tasha;265977:

  Note: Critical Hit isn't even my own opinion. I tend to agree with it though.

  
  
  If you agree with it then you that's pretty much your opinion on the issue.
  
  My stance still holds.
  
  Also, this is almost a nonissue but Alchemy: Erg Transformation is listed under "Important Skills that you Must Rank" while your description that you wrote for it clearly states that it's useful but not very major at least compared to Evie's truly essential skills. It contradicts, but meh not that big of a deal since your description is good.
• watermelontree wrote on 2010-12-29 19:06
  I fail to comprehend why Critical Hit is such a bad thing (excuse me for not reading pages 2-38 if somebody already brought this up). So the only CON I can discern from your post is that a critical hit during an L attack will either knock the mobs back a bit or send them flying wayy back so that your Smash attack does not reach...??? I use Hell Quake all the time and it always reaches. Aside from that, I've never really noticed anything because 95% of trash mobs die from my Hell Quake anyway.
  
  Explain to me what I'm misunderstanding here? Why does everyone tell me Crit is soooooo bad? And when I ask them why, I never get a clear answer?
  
  Also, Rose Drop set is Cloth Rank E, not B
• TA wrote on 2010-12-29 19:35

  Quote from Papa;266429:

  The opinion of ONE korean player should definitely not be taken so seriously. Its even reached the point where all new people hail this entire Critical Hit character destruction.
  
  Now... Ill ask you ALL to do something. Whoever does have Critical Hit maxed, or at least high/moderate, go try it, without the snap. Ive been doing it on my Evie all day and crit or not, the downswing DOES hit them. So...?

  
  
  Did you play boats 5, 6 & 7 with your Scythe Evie on Korea with a high Critical Hit?
  
  Because, and don't take this as being rude, but if you haven't then it doesn't exactly give you any room to talk on this very niche issue. Because well, just someone having played Korea but not done that, is basically like the opinion of any one of us.
  
  Now for the sake of argument, I'll go ahead and give you the benefit of the doubt that you did indeed play boats 5-7 with your Scythe Evie with high Critical Hit in Korea. This being the case, can you explain the disparity between the description given of normal mobs on those boats and the normal mobs on those boats in actuality?
  
  Personally, I see normal mobs getting harder and harder. The Kobold Warriors hurt quite a bit on 2, then on 3 the lance and mage vampires started to become issues, and then on 4... even the frogs are a pest. But, the big hammer gnolls... those can really be a problem. They don't die in one loom and can actually do some damage to you. Everything tends to hit harder and be harder to kill. So with that in mind, I tend to believe the description given that normal mobs do become a problem later on because they do indeed get harder to kill and deal more damage.
  
  And well, missing with your loom when it takes a loom+thread to kill, is indeed a very negative effect that may very well outweigh any possible positive effects.
  
  

  Quote from watermelontree;267444:

  I fail to comprehend why Critical Hit is such a bad thing (excuse me for not reading pages 2-38 if somebody already brought this up). So the only CON I can discern from your post is that a critical hit during an L attack will either knock the mobs back a bit or send them flying wayy back so that your Smash attack does not reach...??? I use Hell Quake all the time and it always reaches. Aside from that, I've never really noticed anything because 95% of trash mobs die from my Hell Quake anyway.
  
  Explain to me what I'm misunderstanding here? Why does everyone tell me Crit is soooooo bad? And when I ask them why, I never get a clear answer?
  
  Also, Rose Drop set is Cloth Rank E, not B

  
  
  Well, I guess you also failed to read the post where it was suggested and the threads discussing it were linked...
  
  Amusingly enough, it was actually Papa that linked it......
  
  

  Quote from PApalapagus;225150:

  :l How is it that you dont know about Critical Hit for Evies? Anyway, the above posters were right in that it affects the small part of all her smashes, along with the entirety of LR.
  
  However, heres an interesting post from one of the more experienced KR players:
  
  Vindictus Forums | View topic - Re: About Physical Critical for Scythe
  
  Normally, everything that player says is not to be taken lightly. Minus opinions, of course.

  
  
  So, uh... I have to ask... why the change in opinion all the sudden? He was "one of the more experienced KR players" and "everything that player says is not to be taken lightly" which suddenly has now changed to "The opinion of ONE korean player should definitely not be taken so seriously."
  
  :mad:
  
  __
  
  Anyways, as for everyone else... I think everyone in here needs to calm down a bit. You guys are getting pretty heated over silly little stuff that really, doesn't even matter. I think heated discussions should probably be had in their own discussion threads, so there isn't so much hostility and fighting here in the guide thread. Discussion threads can be locked if things get too out of hand, and you guys know someone's gonna lose it and things may end up going that far, but a thread like this it just creates a lot of work for the mods here at the least, and at the worst... it leaves a really negative atmosphere for awhile. So, consider that when posting.
  
  Not to mention a lot of you are starting to seem like you're outright attacking me... While probably not your intents, when so many people start in with so much negativity all at once, especially the way some of them are worded, it's all a bit disheartening to say the least.
  
  I do this for you guys. I don't have some kind of hidden evil agenda to try to force my opinions on new players. If that's what you have in your head, I'm sorry. I'm just trying to help people out here. If something is in the guide right now, it's because I think that it's fact.
  
  As for Critical Hit, it's going to stay like that until either 1) someone can provide proof otherwise or 2) we get the content ourselves and disprove it ourselves. Until that happens, I'd like to remind all of you of one very important fact: You can always put points into a skill later. You can't take them out.
  
  So yes, for now, until 1 or 2 happens, I believe this is the best way to go about it, for the precise reason I mentioned above.
• watermelontree wrote on 2010-12-29 19:45
  That's the link right there? It's on page 19, of course I didn't read it. The only problem I see here is that people make CRIT seem so overly terrible, when none of us knows exactly how bad or good it is. Anyway, Nice guide for beginners. My path was slightly different, but eventually I got all those in top priority (except erg trans) maxed too. I'll go read that link now.
• Phoenix~Lament wrote on 2010-12-29 19:59

  Quote from Tasha;267465:

  If something is in the guide right now, it's because I think that it's fact.

  
  
  Things should be in a guide because it IS fact, not because the guide-writer THINKS that it's fact.
  
  At the very least, I think we would appreciate it if you acknowledged the controversy over the skill in your guide and say that there are differing opinions on the usefulness of Physical Critical Hit.
  
  Also, I looked into physical critting on Invisible Loom and when I do crit, the magic portion of the smash still hits them.
  
  Also, missing a bloody thread once in a while really isn't that bad. It's not like you're gonna die or anything, all that happens is that the poor gnoll hammerguy isn't permanently in stunlock until death. You don't necessarily have to one-shot combo everything to death, and in fact that probably won't be the case when trash mobs become even stronger later boats. Meanwhile, an advantage to high physical crit is more knockdown on bosses.
• XProflmfao wrote on 2010-12-29 20:39
  This is the best evie scythe guide I've ever read, the whole reason why I joined Mabination to continue using it for my noob Evie. :D
• TA wrote on 2010-12-29 20:57

  Quote from Phoenix~Lament;267481:

  Things should be in a guide because it IS fact, not because the guide-writer THINKS that it's fact.
  
  At the very least, I think we would appreciate it if you acknowledged the controversy over the skill in your guide and say that there are differing opinions on the usefulness of Physical Critical Hit.
  
  Also, I looked into physical critting on Invisible Loom and when I do crit, the magic portion of the smash still hits them.
  
  Also, missing a bloody thread once in a while really isn't that bad. It's not like you're gonna die or anything, all that happens is that the poor gnoll hammerguy isn't permanently in stunlock until death. You don't necessarily have to one-shot combo everything to death, and in fact that probably won't be the case when trash mobs become even stronger later boats. Meanwhile, an advantage to high physical crit is more knockdown on bosses.

  
  
  The "differing opinions" so to speak, have no base thus far. And regardless if it "isn't that bad" to you or not, it's still a major disadvantage to ranking the skill rather than not.
  
  Whether it turns out to be true or not, I'd rather be apprehensive about it than not. And if it does turn out to be, then it's better people are scared of putting anything into the skill rather than thinking "oh, this is just some random opinion and doesn't really matter!" and maxing it only later to find out that it's a huge disadvantage for them.
  
  I'd rather not screw people over with my guide over personal opinions and random things people suddenly think may be different. Fact is, if information changes then nobody will be hurt because people will still be able to put points into the skill. If I change it and a bunch of people max it then it turns out that it was entirely true, then well... you just trolled a couple thousand people over some out of your ass guess.
  
  So once again, until either of these things happen, it's not changing:
  
  

  1) someone can provide proof otherwise or 2) we get the content ourselves and disprove it ourselves

  
  
  Between missing sometimes and not missing at all, the winning choice is a clear. The damage increase from the physical crit would be so minuscule (because the physical part of your damage is so tiny) that any disadvantage, not to mention such a huge one, makes that skill much better to not invest points into whatsoever. You know how the saying goes, "Better safe than sorry."
  
  Until 1 or 2 happens, the discussion's over here as far as I'm concerned.
• Papa wrote on 2010-12-29 22:09
  He said "missing once in a while" as hypothetical. Like I also mentioned in my post, to this day, I have not missed. Seems kind of ominous for the argument.
  
  Id also appreciate you not attempting to twist my own words.
  
  AA is more experienced than I am when it comes to boat 7, as its the only one I havent played. And until I purchase a new VPN, it wont happen. I said I found the post interesting, and I still do. I also dont see how me saying what he says should not be taken lightly, is a clear contradiction to me saying that hes not the MH mesiah. He isnt.
  
  A large % in MH plays far better than the two of us do, unlike in V. That being the case... there could have been many different factors for him missing with the downswing. Positioning, timing, mob size... whatever. He never spoke of the issue again.
  
  As far as the actual Crit skill goes... 20% of my damage(or even more) tends to be physical. Im not going to ignore a boost to it.
  
  Trash mobs become a problem in boat 6(not 5, ever), only if youre soloing, and only if the particular boss is a pain. Keep in mind that we let the boss kill the adds in this case. ;P You just need to know how to play. In a party? Just fodder.
• Mama wrote on 2010-12-29 22:37
  weeoo.. big post. I think the whole thing about negative mood and mods was entirely unnecessary and a deterrent to people expressing their opinions, especially since no one here is 'attacking' you. A conflicting argument presented by players doesn't mean its meant to harm, unless done outright, which has not happened. It either means people are just following the leader (cough watermelontree seems a little iffy) or personally see a flaw in the opinion, which warrants discussion. Heavy heavy emphasis on opinion. but yes, moving on.
  
  no one's saying it's not a great guide. we're saying (well, i'm mainly saying) discretion is needed especially when dealing around guides that fresh players come across and hail uncritically as flawless logic. Making it seem like having a high critical hit, or even at E being something NEVER EVER to do and something so game-breakingly severe to warrant a reroll (which is the conclusion they're making) is something people are taking to heart. It's like saying hammer fionas are completely unviable because yes, they can crit on those normal hits as well, and indeed, they became bone crushingly difficult to play in Boat 7. But does this mean it should never be played? A bit of an apple and an orange comparison, but the idea is to give people room to decide on their own after knowing the facts themselves, which are heavily biased here.
  
  what's simply needed is both sides of the coin. that's all you need to take from this. For some people, the decrease in the ability to mob control that becomes worse as times goes on is worth the bit of damage, especially against bosses, and especially if they prefer party play where their 'flaws' will be supplemented by their peers, as what happens across all classes, be it a staff or scythe.
  
  edit: .. pa beat me to it -.-
• xJac wrote on 2010-12-29 23:13
  ^This.
  
  What people are saying is that, you shouldn't have bashed Critical Hit as "really bad", when one KR player simply said "it CAN be an hinderance". Specific the problem and let people decide whether to take the risk or not.