G13 Class System

• Juno wrote on 2010-07-26 15:31

  Quote from Phunkie;105040:

  Archers get no Masteries at all.
  
  Everyone else does.
  
  Melee (which was already powerful) received more boosts. Why not Ranged?

  
  
  If you give melee a damage boost you improve only their damage. Given that melee have to fight off entire mobs at once with no chance of guerilla tactics means they need massive damage, massive tanking ability or both.
  
  If you give range a damage boost you increase their damage and their safety. You've enabled them to kill more quickly and if it takes less hits there's fewer chances to miss. While potentially slower (IE:they stack damage instead of crit) range is perfectly capable of taking on any situation with moderate skill.
  
  There's supposedly a range damage boost anyway though, and I fully expect there'll be some significant perks to it when the test realm updates.
  
  

  Quote from bradstrt;105054:

  Keeping this ruins the shine Mabinogi has pre-g13.

  
  
  I think it delivers on that promise since I no longer have to play a hybrid class end-game to be useful. Make giants more than just gimmick characters since they don't have to share the spotlight in melee with a human who can also blow things up with magic and range etc.
  
  

  Quote from JustNoOne;105081:

  Why are you so concerned about being too powerful? And you said "because the mixing of skills makes them more powerful, it's not possible to give a class a powerful skill unless you make them strong", it only seems like you're basing your assumptions on the fact that players in Mabinogi are given way to much power, but I don't feel that is the reality. I don't believe that we are given enough power because you don't see your average person running Peaca 24/7 or Metus all day long with no sweat or doing all these task solo.
  
  So if hybrid is the only way to go in Mabinogi which I do agree, it doesn't change the fact that I want to be a pesduo-knight or pesduo-mage in Pre-G13, and it definitely does not change the fact that this infringes on the idea of Mabinogi.

  
  
  Right now? No, players aren't given -too- much power. However, if you added those melee masteries in willy-nilly we'd get there fast. As I've said before the new skills/classes are geared towards improving a single niche without worrying about making all of them too powerful. That doesn't mean that as of g10 a single niche is too powerful, just that they've hit a wall where no one can get any stronger for fear of making them all too strong.
  
  If hybrid is the only way to go, doesn't that infringe on the fantasy life idea? Moreover you can still be a pseudo-mage/knight post-g13.
  
  

  Quote from oddy231;105158:

  I like that you are at least taking an intellectual approach to this and thinking it through. You seem to be one of the few that are actually analyzing this and not seeing classes and Mabinogi together and throwing a fit or just jumping to conclusions about adventurers being a dead end. I wish people would actually think about this for a second, it's a really good thing.

  
  
  Ironically, thinking is one of my favorite past times. Right behind contemplation and dozing off.
• Zid wrote on 2010-07-26 15:37

  Quote from Aubog007;105150:

  Don't forget the specializations i believe allow you to gain 1-3 of your certain stat a LEVEL (I think). (Merchants get 2-3 Luck a level if i read the chart correctly)
  So it makes their certain trait MUCH stronger (100-200 str gained from level ups? yes please)
  We cannot complain just yet because it hasn't even made it out of testing yet. People overreact over nothing and I for one welcome the changes... cause if I don't like it... I CAN JUST BE AN ADVENTURER.
  
  Sure. I don't like the stupid restrictions as much as anyone else. But the pros > cons.
  Give it time.

  
  
  Like I said before, I'm not condemning this system to be dropped. But it has issues that need to be addressed because it already violates some people's view of playing Mabinogi. If it's over nothing, people wouldn't have been in a knot about the class system even before the test servers received it.
  
  Heck, I would love 200 Str just from lvling up.
  
  And I would love to believe Adventurer class is okay and still be that pre-G13 style; however, too many issues with this system scales disbelief towards me more.
  
  I'll give it time as much as anybody else. It's why I'm hoping, since it's a test server, it'll be fixed here and there, or at least worked around.
  
  Still, from what I see, its cons > pros more.
• Phunkie wrote on 2010-07-26 15:41
  I've read many times before that Korea Nexon actually listens to its gamers, so whatever issues they have with this class system will most likely be fixed.
  
  But yeah, I guess it could be worse.
• Juno wrote on 2010-07-26 16:02
  We should stop calling it a class system. Most of the angst is over semantics so if we just rename it...we should be ok.
• Phunkie wrote on 2010-07-26 16:03
  Whatever it is, it's still in beta. lmao
  
  We all need to remember that.
• Aubog007 wrote on 2010-07-26 16:23

  Quote from Zid;105178:

  Like I said before, I'm not condemning this system to be dropped. But it has issues that need to be addressed because it already violates some people's view of playing Mabinogi. If it's over nothing, people wouldn't have been in a knot about the class system even before the test servers received it.
  
  Heck, I would love 200 Str just from lvling up.
  
  And I would love to believe Adventurer class is okay and still be that pre-G13 style; however, too many issues with this system scales disbelief towards me more.
  
  I'll give it time as much as anybody else. It's why I'm hoping, since it's a test server, it'll be fixed here and there, or at least worked around.
  
  Still, from what I see, its cons > pros more.

  
  
  From personal testing of it I enjoy it.
  Although i accidentally chose wizard at the start which made me useless. (No wands or spells.)
• JustNoOne wrote on 2010-07-26 16:24

  Quote from Juno;105175:

  Right now? No, players aren't given -too- much power. However, if you added those melee masteries in willy-nilly we'd get there fast. As I've said before the new skills/classes are geared towards improving a single niche without worrying about making all of them too powerful. That doesn't mean that as of g10 a single niche is too powerful, just that they've hit a wall where no one can get any stronger for fear of making them all too strong.
  
  If hybrid is the only way to go, doesn't that infringe on the fantasy life idea? Moreover you can still be a pseudo-mage/knight post-g13.
  

  
  
  If we add those masteries, sure things might be overpowered, but does it really matter that things are overpowered? Since you have masteries for different type of weapons, why not make it so that the skill only takes affect when you hold the said weapon rather than implement a class system? Woudln't that solve this "overpowered" problem, because I don't see why having too much power is bad at all.
  
  As well, being a hybrid does not infringe on the fantasy life idea since you are the one to decide what is your "fantasy life" and placing a class system does not correlate with this idea since DevCat is basically telling you to achieve your fantasy life where there's nothing to restrict you yet this class system offers skill for these separate classes.
  
  Also I could still be a pseudo-knight/mage/whatever, but you know, I want to use hailstorm too or maybe even use colt composer as well as an Adventurer, why should I be restricted to certain skills when I can have it all?
  
  I feel that being overpowered is good, but since I know many definition of "overpowered", can you explain what you mean by "overpowered"?
• oddy231 wrote on 2010-07-26 16:49

  Quote from JustNoOne;105212:

  If we add those masteries, sure things might be overpowered, but does it really matter that things are overpowered? Since you have masteries for different type of weapons, why not make it so that the skill only takes affect when you hold the said weapon rather than implement a class system? Woudln't that solve this "overpowered" problem, because I don't see why having too much power is bad at all.
  
  As well, being a hybrid does not infringe on the fantasy life idea since you are the one to decide what is your "fantasy life" and placing a class system does not correlate with this idea since DevCat is basically telling you to achieve your fantasy life where there's nothing to restrict you yet this class system offers skill for these separate classes.
  
  Also I could still be a pseudo-knight/mage/whatever, but you know, I want to use hailstorm too or maybe even use colt composer as well as an Adventurer, why should I be restricted to certain skills when I can have it all?
  
  I feel that being overpowered is good, but since I know many definition of "overpowered", can you explain what you mean by "overpowered"?

  
  
  You are currently restricted into the jack of all trades class like Juno said. The whole fantasy life excuse doesn't make sense to me. What if in your fantasy life you're a wizard or a merchant, now that is possible. They haven't taken it away, they have made it so people who what to specialize can. to me it seems like only humans would be against this update because being able to do everything no longer make them the best at it. It's not like these new classes are extremely overpowered either, there abilities come at the huge cost of most skills not in the group they specialize in.
• Juno wrote on 2010-07-26 16:55

  Quote from JustNoOne;105212:

  If we add those masteries, sure things might be overpowered, but does it really matter that things are overpowered? Since you have masteries for different type of weapons, why not make it so that the skill only takes affect when you hold the said weapon rather than implement a class system? Woudln't that solve this "overpowered" problem, because I don't see why having too much power is bad at all.
  
  As well, being a hybrid does not infringe on the fantasy life idea since you are the one to decide what is your "fantasy life" and placing a class system does not correlate with this idea since DevCat is basically telling you to achieve your fantasy life where there's nothing to restrict you yet this class system offers skill for these separate classes.
  
  Also I could still be a pseudo-knight/mage/whatever, but you know, I want to use hailstorm too or maybe even use colt composer as well as an Adventurer, why should I be restricted to certain skills when I can have it all?
  
  I feel that being overpowered is good, but since I know many definition of "overpowered", can you explain what you mean by "overpowered"?

  
  
  The masteries already work as you described them.
  
  By overpowered I mean the game loses all challenge. To me, Mabinogi's selling factor is that it isn't point and forget like other mmos...combat is involved and you are rewarded for skill and punished for mistakes. If people get too strong then it becomes a game of gimmicks. Can you imagine a charge -> frozen blast -> hailstorm combo?
• JustNoOne wrote on 2010-07-26 16:56

  Quote from oddy231;105244:

  You are currently restricted into the jack of all trades class like Juno said. The whole fantasy life excuse doesn't make sense to me. What if in your fantasy life you're a wizard or a merchant, now that is possible. They haven't taken it away, they have made it so people who what to specialize can. to me it seems like only humans would be against this update because being able to do everything no longer make them the best at it. It's not like these new classes are extremely overpowered either, there abilities come at the huge cost of most skills not in the group they specialize in.

  
  
  So let's say my fantasy life is to be a magic user; a wizard. They have access to hailstorm if they want to be a wizard, but what if they wanted access to Windmill as well? You're basically never going to get the chance to do that with this class system.
  
  You also won't get the benefits of other skills if you do rank them up (like the Will you get from ranking Windmill), you lose stat that you have earned because you have picked a class. Sure these classes might be "underpowered", but that doesn't mean that they should stay.
  
  

  Quote from Juno;105246:

  The masteries already work as you described them.
  
  By overpowered I mean the game loses all challenge. To me, Mabinogi's selling factor is that it isn't point and forget like other mmos...combat is involved and you are rewarded for skill and punished for mistakes. If people get too strong then it becomes a game of gimmicks. Can you imagine a charge -> frozen blast -> hailstorm combo?

  
  
  Okay, so if class system does not get implemented, there's a chance that things will be "overpowered".
  
  There are certain ways to make certain tactics nonviable like reducing stun time on certain monsters when hit with x skill, you can give monsters heavy stander or other properties. I don't feel like restricting skills by implementing a class system is the right way to go but rather to make different tactics work in different situations or lowering the effectiveness of a tactic.
  
  I understand your reasoning, I just don't think this is the best way to tackle this problem of "overpoweredness" when it affects other aspect of Mabinogi.
• oddy231 wrote on 2010-07-26 17:12

  Quote from JustNoOne;105247:

  So let's say my fantasy life is to be a magic user; a wizard. They have access to hailstorm if they want to be a wizard, but what if they wanted access to Windmill as well? You're basically never going to get the chance to do that with this class system.
  
  You also won't get the benefits of other skills if you do rank them up (like the Will you get from ranking Windmill), you lose stat that you have earned because you have picked a class. Sure these classes might be "underpowered", but that doesn't mean that they should stay.

  
  
  They restrict class skills the same way they restrict race skills, for balance. Adventurers can't use Hailstorm and Wizards can't windmill for the same reason elves can't you windguard and humans can't use final shot. Those combinations are too powerful and mostly aren't fair to people who specialize. One thing I absolutely hate about this game is that, lets say I spend tons of Ap on magic skills to get them to Rank 1 and none on anything else but smash, I get that to Rank 1, my Ice Spear damage will be the same as the warrior that spent all his Ap on combat skills except for Ice Spear that he got to Rank 1. However my smash damage at Rank 1 will be no were near his at Rank 1, It's completely unfair. That's why I like the idea of having a wizard only restricted skill, this can't happen that way and it gives magic users enough of an advancement to be on par will others.
• Juno wrote on 2010-07-26 17:35
  There are likely other ways to have done the balancing. I was thinking about adding skills that gave mass negative stats. This system is better though since it allows you to switch between specializations.
  
  Changing stun time on skills would prevent those combos being pulled off in party play as well shifting the game even more to a solo player mmo.
• JustNoOne wrote on 2010-07-26 17:39

  Quote from oddy231;105262:

  They restrict class skills the same way they restrict race skills, for balance. Adventurers can't use Hailstorm and Wizards can't windmill for the same reason elves can't you windguard and humans can't use final shot. Those combinations are too powerful and mostly aren't fair to people who specialize. One thing I absolutely hate about this game is that, lets say I spend tons of Ap on magic skills to get them to Rank 1 and none on anything else but smash, I get that to Rank 1, my Ice Spear damage will be the same as the warrior that spent all his Ap on combat skills except for Ice Spear that he got to Rank 1. However my smash damage at Rank 1 will be no were near his at Rank 1, It's completely unfair. That's why I like the idea of having a wizard only restricted skill, this can't happen that way and it gives magic users enough of an advancement to be on par will others.

  
  
  But is implementing a class system the best solution to tackle this problem? I don't believe so because it can infringe on people's dream of becoming the Jack of all trades and master of all. My version of my "fantasy life" ask for me to use all skill and to restrict certain skills just makes my "fantasy life" go down the drain.
  
  Some combinations may be to powerful, and they can be unfair, but restricting people to certain skills isn't the best way to deal with it, why not have other systems like different stat gain for every class, damage modification and other methods that might not have been stated.
• Zeo wrote on 2010-07-26 17:42

  Quote from JustNoOne;105284:

  But is implementing a class system the best solution to tackle this problem? I don't believe so because it can infringe on people's dream of becoming the Jack of all trades and master of all. My version of my "fantasy life" ask for me to use all skill and to restrict certain skills just makes my "fantasy life" go down the drain.
  
  Some combinations may be to powerful, and they can be unfair, but restricting people to certain skills isn't the best way to deal with it, why not have other systems like different stat gain for every class, damage modification and other methods that might not have been stated.

  
  Yes, I got to say I agreed with you on this one.. :/ I'm a hybrid of mage and alchemist (nag nag nag), and I don't want to choose to be either Wizard, Alchemist, or Adventurer, because I'd be restricted to some skills, in a way.. :I
• JustNoOne wrote on 2010-07-26 17:47

  Quote from Juno;105282:

  Changing stun time on skills would prevent those combos being pulled off in party play as well shifting the game even more to a solo player mmo.

  
  
  Not really... Changing stun time would make the user have to rely on quick thinking (as well as a good internet connection) to combo things well, if you do change the hitstun dramatically, yes you can prevent certain combos from happening again but there can possibly be a point where you can balance the hitstun so that certain tactics work and certain tactic don't.