Let's Talk End-Game in the Future~

• Kenero wrote on 2013-07-28 23:27
  As you noticed, with the released of Abyss Monsters showing more monsters that are immune to elemental reforges, and with that talk comes a lot of buzz among the Korean players on how the game is slowly weening from Elemental Reforges to now new reforges such as Smash, Windmill, etc. things that affect self rather than mobs.
  
  However, it isn't just limited to elemental weapons, in fact some players are talking about skillsets and their use in current and future content.
  
  As of right now, the players are splitting the game into the current contents:
  
  
  Metalware (Reforged) Elemental Status
  

  
  
  • Dungeons (basic to ADV, Hardmode)
    
  • Shadow Missions - Tara and Taillteann... Generation 9~17 included
    
  • Drama Missions (Avon)
    
  • Field Boss (All Field Boss except White Dragon and BD)
    

  
  
  
  Metalware (Reforged) Elemental Immune
  

  
  
  • Dungeons (Abyss)
    
  • Shadow Missions - Generation 18+ (Drama[Saga] of Iria) and Lord Missions
    
  • Field Boss (White Dragon and Black Dragon)
    
  • Possible Future Content
    

  
  
  
  With that said, as of currently, the Korean Players are talking about different equipment and the skills associated with them. Some feel that current SM are pretty weak and that elemental reforged totally blows even the most elite of Tara and Taillteann Missions out of water.
  
  Whereas Elemental Weapons in elemental immune sections are not as useful and questions are being raised on what an "end-game" skillset and weapon is.
  
  What does that mean? There's now two types of equipment: Metalware Elemental'ed and Metalware Non elemental
  
  Some Korean players, if they are not already doing so, are making two sets of weapons... one for Elemental and one without.
  
  Weapons such as the Bhafel Slayer (though still largely outclass by the lance) and Bhafel Hunter are becoming more desirable weapon due to piercing. The Huntress giving a 15% damage bonus which is basically walking around with lv.2 elemental.
  
  Now while you must be thinking, "Are the Koreans making two weapons? Such as a Lance with lv.6 elemental and a Lance with lv.20 damage smash?"
  
  Most likely no... what they're doing are things like:
  
  Elemental: Bow with lv.6 Elemental or Lance with Level 6 Elemental
  Non Elemental: Control Handle Bars or Guns
  
  Now... below is a list I personally see the future endgame is for us:
  
  
  Elemental Reforged
  
  Tier 1
  Range
  Lances
  
  Tier 2
  Melee
  Puppetry
  Fighter
  Guns
  
  Supportive
  Alchemy
  Magic etc.
  
  
  Non Elemental
  
  Tier 1
  Guns
  Puppetry
  Magic
  Alchemy?
  
  
  Tier 2
  Range (except with magnum shot reforge or CS, possible tier 1)
  Alchemy (depending on how one is using it)
  Fighter (sorry fighters)
  Lances (possible tier 1 with high enough stats and piercing)
  
  
  Supportive
  Alchemy
  Magic
  
  
  
  That is my personal opinion how it will be in the future. As you notice, things get flip easily without reforges... made me realize how some skillsets are heavily dependent on elemental reforges.
  
  What is your view?
• Howhurl wrote on 2013-07-28 23:32
  i have the same feeling as well. however, I'm not going to give up elementals just yet, because i don't have the stats to back it up lol
• Mentosftw wrote on 2013-07-28 23:34
  I don't mind tier 2.
  
  Everything dies eventually.
• Blassreiter wrote on 2013-07-29 00:05
  I'm doing fine even without this so called godly elemental reforge (even after having people attempt to explain it to me, I still don't understand how it works). Everyone's hell bent on reforging but you really don't need it. Sure it makes things more convenient because you can OHKO many mobs but I'd rather focus on tactic rather than brute force.
  
  As I've said before, some dude who had higher damage than me thanks to reforges can't effectively defeat a Master Lich and he only thought about spamming Windmill and Smash whereas I used Defense to boost my chance of survival.
  
  Also Lullaby is awesome.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2013-07-29 00:08
  I had reached a similar conclusion, though i've been monitoring the KR population for a while. This splits the metagame more heavily than both passive defenses and elemental affinity.
  
  Range and Melee will continue to decimate targets not immune to elementals. That metagame won't change much.
  
  Present:
  Primary: Melee/Range
  Secondary: Fighter/Puppetry/Magic
  Tertiary: Alchemy/Bard
  
  Future:
  Primary: Melee/Range/Gunner
  Secondary: Fighter/Puppetry/Magic/Alchemy
  Tertiary: Bard
  
  That's my prediction for upcoming content. We'll start to see more Combat Alchemists and a number of people will pick up Gunslinger.
  
  The elemental immune environment is less clear. I predict that Giants will be the most effective race overall.
  
  Martial Arts has a tiny bit more leeway due to its various debuffs and ability to lock targets down.
  
  Melee will be saved by the buff to lance piercing, though it's probably going to get nerfed in the future due to KR feedback.
  
  Range is going to take a massive hit to its effectiveness, which sucks for Elves because they're hardly better at range than Humans anyway for all intents and purposes). The Bhafel Hunter (w/Huntress) is so ridiculous that anyone with one will continue to stomp regardless.
  
  Puppetry always decimates without elemental reforges. No change there. The same applies to Gunslinger.
  
  Magic and Alchemy will forever be the black sheep of Mabinogi. The former will lack single target DPS without overspecialization while the latter will lack damage entirely, though it'll sport unrivaled crowd control and excellent sustained area DPS. Overspecialization should lend way to pretty outstanding DPS at the cost of flexibility.
  
  The biggest problem with making these enemies immune to elemental reforges is that this content doesn't need any sort of character development.
  
  Dungeons (Abyss) ~ Lackluster drops, impossible to spam due to pass restraints, likely gives poor EXP
  Shadow Missions - Generation 18+ (Drama[Saga] of Iria) ~ Easy as hell, who cares?
  Field Boss (White Dragon and Black Dragon) ~ You'll have like a thousand people crashing you anyway
  Lord Missions ~ Impossibly terrible rewards
• Kenero wrote on 2013-07-29 00:08
  I would like to remind that Tier 2 does not mean "useless" or "cannot be used effectively".
  
  It is merely an assessment of how one skillset is vs. another with reforges and without.
  
  It is no indication that if you are using tier 2, it is a waste of your time. In fact, Tier 2 may be very effective in what it does.
• Gensokyou wrote on 2013-07-29 02:26

  Elemental Reforged
  
  Tier 1
  Range
  Melee+Lances
  Fighter (Single Target)
  
  Tier 2
  Puppetry
  Fighter (combination skillset)
  Magic
  
  Tier 3
  Guns (Too early to call)
  
  Supportive
  Alchemy
  Bard
  
  
  Non Elemental
  
  Tier 1
  Puppetry
  Magic
  Range (Reforged)
  
  Tier 1.5
  Lances (They're definitely better then tier 2, but they're not as good as tier 1 even with all that piercing out the butt...Kinda awkward, so it deserved it's own tier.)
  
  Tier 2
  Range (Unreforged)
  Fighter
  Melee
  Alchemy
  
  Tier 3
  Guns (Too early to call)
  
  Supportive
  Alchemy
  Bard

  
  
  A few things:
  
  I'm still holding out for guns to come out on NA before I call anything with them despite what happens in KR.
  
  Anyone who's spent any time around me knows that i'm very sceptical about alchemy, and i'll continue to be that way until water cannon starts doing 100k+ on MA boss round mobs regularly. Things like elemental wave and stuff are very nice indeed and it's been promoted from whatareyoudoing tier, but it's still mainly a supportive skillset in my opinion.
  
  With elementals, i'm not sure why melee was in tier 2. Elemental dual wield, while not as good as a lance, still absolutely destroys. Elemental 2hs can be better then lances in certain situations. So, I see no reason for it not to be top tier.
  
  Elementals on knuckles absolutely destroys in single target situations. You can't smash spam unless it's adv heavy stander and not actively targeting you. And despite what some people might say, in a team situation pummel can increase dps. If it's just you then smash and get the same results. The damage falls behind without elementals, though.
  
  Reforged magic now, and magic post update is pretty good. I think it's fine where i've put it.
  
  Puppets are puppets.
• Aubog007 wrote on 2013-07-29 02:34
  Hm. Endgame, endgame everything is easy without reforges, just use puppet, range and stuff with reforges isnt going to make something faster.
  
  (Elite mission wise)
  
  
  If i had truly endgame puppets, reforges, the whole shebang. I would 1 hit every room in elite more or less.
  
  
  This isnt about efficiency, this thread is about damage, where after a point, besides bosses, which if you are bossing at endgame, means no point.
  
  To both things.
  
  Because lance charge lolsucks hardcore unless it's MA.
  And if it's top tier because of one mission, the koreans have no sense of scale whatsoever.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2013-07-29 02:52

  Quote from Aubog007;1128998:

  Hm. Endgame, endgame everything is easy without reforges, just use puppet, range and stuff with reforges isnt going to make something faster.
  
  (Elite mission wise)
  
  If i had truly endgame puppets, reforges, the whole shebang. I would 1 hit every room in elite more or less.
  
  This isnt about efficiency, this thread is about damage, where after a point, besides bosses, which if you are bossing at endgame, means no point.
  
  To both things.
  
  Because lance charge lolsucks hardcore unless it's MA.
  And if it's top tier because of one mission, the koreans have no sense of scale whatsoever.

  
  
  The issue is that nothing is a serious threat to a well developed player, even without reforges. You can discount half of the content in this game simply because your time is better spent elsewhere. If you don't do anything besides field boss, you're probably going to discredit puppetry about as much as someone who spams commerce would discount something like lance skills.
  
  I get what you're saying though. The only thing "worth" min/maxing is time/experience...and you'll use that experience to rank skills to do absolutely nothing because everything is already easy. It's disheartening, honestly.
  
  ...On another note,
  
  As illustrated by the Nexon forums, the only real tier system is as follows:
  
  Developed, knowledgeable, and skilled player > Developed, knowledgeable, and skilled Elf Archer
• Aubog007 wrote on 2013-07-29 02:56
  Hmmm...
  
  
  I will await how guns change the perspective of things.
• Aubog007 wrote on 2013-07-29 02:56
  Hmmm...
  
  
  I will await how guns change the perspective of things.
• NaBrO wrote on 2013-07-29 02:59

  Quote from Aubog007;1128998:

  
  
  Because lance charge lolsucks hardcore unless it's MA.
  And if it's top tier because of one mission, the koreans have no sense of scale whatsoever.

  
  
  [video=youtube;g0KCc9rjBOM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0KCc9rjBOM&feature=c4-overview&list=UUU9lKHi-NxOKDnGuh9aEMTw[/video]
• Sebbies wrote on 2013-07-29 03:03

  Quote from NaBrO;1129012:

  [video=youtube;g0KCc9rjBOM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0KCc9rjBOM&feature=c4-overview&list=UUU9lKHi-NxOKDnGuh9aEMTw[/video]

  
  
  That looks fun as fuck. MOPED MOUNTS WHEN.
• Kenero wrote on 2013-07-29 03:03

  Quote from Aubog007;1129008:

  Hmmm...
  
  
  I will await how guns change the perspective of things.

  
  
  Give it a week or two for NA players to adjust. Even if they get it all to rank 1 in 1-2 days, it'll take a bit longer to adjust to the new feel of the skillset.
  
  

  Quote from Kaeporo;1129004:

  The issue is that nothing is a serious threat to a well developed player, even without reforges. You can discount half of the content in this game simply because your time is better spent elsewhere. If you don't do anything besides field boss, you're probably going to discredit puppetry about as much as someone who spams commerce would discount something like lance skills.
  
  I get what you're saying though. The only thing "worth" min/maxing is time/experience...and you'll use that experience to rank skills to do absolutely nothing because everything is already easy. It's disheartening, honestly.
  
  ...On another note,
  
  As illustrated by the Nexon forums, the only real tier system is as follows:
  
  Developed, knowledgeable, and skilled player > Developed, knowledgeable, and skilled Elf Archer

  
  
  To be fair, once you develop a strong skillset, all other skillsets are just "different" ways of killing.
  
  Overall, I do agree that in the end, everything dies rather easy and it's just selecting what method you prefer to get it done.
• Friggerton wrote on 2013-07-29 03:19

  Quote from Kaeporo;1128953:

  Range is going to take a massive hit to its effectiveness...

  
  
  Is this because of the dex reductions related to wearing armor? I thought there was something about dexterity contributing to piercing as well, which if I'm remembering that correctly may balance out any armor dex debuffs.