[Mabinogi KR Test] Renovation Update - Ranged Combat // 12th of Feburary, 2015

• Zekkii wrote on 2015-04-04 18:55

  Quote from Darkboy132;1270017:

  Pre-Genesis cooldown (25 seconds) may or may not have been a bit much. How is 7 seconds still long?
  
  If anything, the way Throwing Attack should have been handled is what Kapra said. Or better yet, get rid of Atlatls completely and make Javelins equippable in the shield slot, shrink Javelin's inventory size to 1x4, and increase its stack size, saving even more space. Throwing Attack would benefit off of the weapon's piercing, special upgrades, etc., but its base damage formula wouldn't change.

  
  Imagine if Magnum Shot hit nearly every time, but you couldn't refire it for 7 seconds. Quite frankly it'd be useless, just as throwing attack is. If accuracy is so much of an issue for you, then use firebolt. You can get it to hit over 100k in the right circumstances as well, and it has a cooldown of 0 seconds.
• gundamweed wrote on 2015-04-04 20:04

  Quote from Zekkii;1270019:

  Imagine if Magnum Shot hit nearly every time, but you couldn't refire it for 7 seconds. Quite frankly it'd be useless, just as throwing attack is. If accuracy is so much of an issue for you, then use firebolt. You can get it to hit over 100k in the right circumstances as well, and it has a cooldown of 0 seconds.

  
  
  Gee, 100k firebolts with no cooldown and 100% balance... Let's keep bitching about throwing attack's rare 90k crit at 50% :-DDDDD
• Koitsu wrote on 2015-04-04 21:58

  Quote from gundamweed;1270020:

  Gee, 100k firebolts with no cooldown and 100% balance... Let's keep bitching about throwing attack's rare 90k crit at 50% :-DDDDD

  
  
  Well to be fair, the numbers on that 90k crit don't make a lot of sense. 6R with 2H special upgrade effect would be 62%, so a 3.12 crit modifier.
  
  They have 1554 max in that image, and after skill modifier and crit, (1554 * 9 * 3.12) = ~43,636 damage
  If they are using the master title? (1554 * 9.9 * 3.12) = ~48000 damage
  reforged+master title, [(9+2)*1.1] = 12.1. (1554 * 12.1 * 3.12) = ~58,666 damage
  
  So then, where the hell does that extra 35k damage come from?
  If elementals actually work??? (1554 * 12.1 * 1.55 * 3.12)= ~90,933 damage
  
  Feel free to correct my math. I just don't see it as feasible.
• Oberynn wrote on 2015-04-04 22:20
  Atlatl have 1h red up, not 2h.
  Ele doesn't work, at least here in NA.
  
  Really, ever since that screenshot was first posted the number never really made any sense with only that much damage range, even with max reforge, unless throw is somehow being affected by support shot or one of the new melee skills or who knows, spider shot.
• ironwoman wrote on 2015-04-04 22:30
  To be fair, many comments suggest that Ele does indeed work in KR.
  
  To reach that damage with magnum shot, you can do that with arguably much less work involved.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2015-04-04 23:51

  Quote from ironwoman;1270036:

  To be fair, many comments suggest that Ele does indeed work in KR.
  
  To reach that damage with magnum shot, you can do that with arguably much less work involved.

  
  
  Explain how you can hit past 90k using Magnum Shot with less work.
• ironwoman wrote on 2015-04-05 01:06

  Quote from Kaeporo;1270039:

  Explain how you can hit past 90k using Magnum Shot with less work.

  
  
  Seeing as we already have players that can hit 80k magnum without elemental reforges... I'd say it's safe to say 90k is much easier to hit with archery than javelins.
  
  This 90k is about as high as you can realistically go with javelin. With range, players have proved over and over again, that range can and will hit much higher, not to mention that RNG god has to have a boner for you to hit this 90k with javelin in the first place. Range is not plagued by the terrible RNG with the same amount of investment that you would have put in to get 90k throwing attack. With the same RNG luck, range has the potential to hit three times that number.
  
  I'm not gonna deny that Giants did get a buff that is hard to ignore, but Giant "range" is still nowhere near viable. It still has way too many flaws.
• willcaster wrote on 2015-04-05 01:25

  Quote from ironwoman;1270047:

  Seeing as we already have players that can hit 80k magnum without elemental reforges... I'd say it's safe to say 90k is much easier to hit with archery than javelins.
  
  This 90k is about as high as you can realistically go with javelin. With range, players have proved over and over again, that range can and will hit much higher, not to mention that RNG god has to have a boner for you to hit this 90k with javelin in the first place. Range is not plagued by the terrible RNG with the same amount of investment that you would have put in to get 90k throwing attack. With the same RNG luck, range has the potential to hit three times that number.
  
  I'm not gonna deny that Giants did get a buff that is hard to ignore, but Giant "range" is still nowhere near viable. It still has way too many flaws.

  
  
  So you are saying throw attack is the "elf" of giants?
  You can hit as hard but need x 3 work and some luck to achive a similar dmg
• ironwoman wrote on 2015-04-05 01:44

  Quote from willcaster;1270051:

  So you are saying throw attack is the "elf" of giants?
  You can hit as hard but need x 3 work and some luck to achive a similar dmg

  
  
  If you're talking about it being a weak point for Giants... yes it is.
  
  I just talked about a player without elemental reforge doing similar damage with magnum shot.
  
  The player is hitting 93k with 1.5k str at 200/50 on a raccoon with weapon power potion and seems like a BFO of sub 50% as well. '
  
  And the reforge needed to support this? It's nothing less than what you need for range. I have an ele 6 HLB and magnum shot 15 gloves, my gears aren't even maxed out compared to what the guy in the throwing attack picture had to do. With 1.4k dex because trans, and with mediocre BFO of 37%, with 65% damage bonus, I was about shoot out 100k on the provo walls. My dex is on the higher side, but still got ways to go until cap. So no, you don't need "x3 work" and some luck to achieve a similar damage. When I get my Bhafel combo, my damage from this will spike a bit higher, and players in NA server have already been spewing out 150k+ magnum shots.
  
  To achieve the said damage on throwing attack, you're gonna need much more buffs than this. Perfect reforge on throwing attack is a must, title, higher BFO, weapon power potion, catering, and the list can go on.
• Koitsu wrote on 2015-04-05 03:52
  Did some more tests since I had some time on my hands.
  
  500 non-critical attacks, 122~301 Damage range, rank 1 throwing attack, tested on raccoon's. Fitted a normal curve to the data.
  

  [Image: http://i.imgur.com/CTCrVZ5.png]

  
  
  So balance is 50%, but it will inherently hit absolute min/max damage about 8% of the time.
• gundamweed wrote on 2015-04-06 06:12

  Quote from Koitsu;1270062:

  Did some more tests since I had some time on my hands.
  
  500 non-critical attacks, 122~301 Damage range, rank 1 throwing attack, tested on raccoon's. Fitted a normal curve to the data.
  
  
  So balance is 50%, but it will inherently hit absolute min/max damage about 8% of the time.

  
  
  Now that's interesting. I was able to figure out the 50% balance with my sample of 40 hits, but I didn't catch those abnormal tendencies for min and max. It's probably just RNG, but still interesting how a good chunk gravitate to those extremes.
• Zekkii wrote on 2015-04-06 07:31

  Quote from gundamweed;1270225:

  Now that's interesting. I was able to figure out the 50% balance with my sample of 40 hits, but I didn't catch those abnormal tendencies for min and max. It's probably just RNG, but still interesting how a good chunk gravitate to those extremes.

  
  It's because the bell curve isn't fully allocated to the 0~100% balance range, but rather something like -20~120% and in the cases of -20% and 120% it would simply substitute 0% and 100% respectively. I would actually guess it's more like -50% to 50% or 100% swing either way.
• Froon wrote on 2015-04-30 11:31
  @People who think throwing attack is "OP" now, it really isn't.
  
  @People freaking out about devcat apparently catering to giants, you know that's bullshit, right? Prior to the FH buff, and giving humans superior bash to giants, things were fine. Giants had a slight advantage w/ melee damage, which is how it should be ... ? Picking a giant after the combat renovation is like purely doing so to handicap yourself, or in order to be big, if that's a thing. Fashionogi giants, anyone?
  
  
  Giants currently have weaker melee than humans, weakest range, weakest magic, weakest puppet, stronger gunner than elf, on par with human when including all buffs, strongest fighter, alchemy ?????? ninja???? strongest ninja maybe who cares? this is right up there with fighter on things that don't matter much.
  
  but because giants used to have better melee than humans, and took 1 with a vales shield while having defense loaded, this made giants "master race", and it was completely unfair to elf/human that they existed.
  
  Currently what the game looks like as far as races are concerned :
  Human - highest DPS, versatile, can do everything. can wear all clothing that is released. nice A++ master race zero downsides besides not getting a flashy transformation skill(YET).
  Elf - Best range, otherwise you're just handicapping yourself. looks cutest(opinion), can wear almost as many outfits as humans.
  Giant - had best melee before, after the combat renovation you're just handicapping yourself in general. Humans can do everything better except fighter/ninja endgame, and those two skill sets are very situational. As a giant now, you basically make for the best tank in Mabinogi. nice. Least options when it comes to character creation, least amount of clothing, can have facial hair??
  
  Besides having the best smash damage, and full swings potential to do huge amounts of damage if you spend 5k on reforges, does anyone have any solid arguments as to why people should play a giant?
  
  Devcat needs to do a race revamp, either make it purely cosmetic differences in race, or give giants an actual edge back in melee, give elves a larger edge in range. Because as stated above, with devcat giving zero downsides to being human, downsides to being both elf and giant are piling up.
  
  My post went a little off topic, but just reading the quotes like "OH DEAR GOD DEVCAT IS CATERING MORE TO GIANTS" - humans, is like ??? o k then.
• Kingofrunes wrote on 2015-04-30 12:00

  Quote from Froon;1273093:

  Least options when it comes to character creation, least amount of clothing, can have facial hair??

  
  
  Snipping the rest and zeroing on this, apologies in advance. Humans can have facial hair via some of the NPC wigs. Not to mention since the dressing room update, Humans do have 3 different facial hair options.
• Esileruf wrote on 2015-04-30 12:50

  Quote from Froon;1273093:

  @People who think throwing attack is "OP" now, it really isn't.
  
  @People freaking out about devcat apparently catering to giants, you know that's bullshit, right? Prior to the FH buff, and giving humans superior bash to giants, things were fine. Giants had a slight advantage w/ melee damage, which is how it should be ... ? Picking a giant after the combat renovation is like purely doing so to handicap yourself, or in order to be big, if that's a thing. Fashionogi giants, anyone?
  
  
  Giants currently have weaker melee than humans, weakest range, weakest magic, weakest puppet, stronger gunner than elf, on par with human when including all buffs, strongest fighter, alchemy ?????? ninja???? strongest ninja maybe who cares? this is right up there with fighter on things that don't matter much.
  
  but because giants used to have better melee than humans, and took 1 with a vales shield while having defense loaded, this made giants "master race", and it was completely unfair to elf/human that they existed.
  
  Currently what the game looks like as far as races are concerned :
  Human - highest DPS, versatile, can do everything. can wear all clothing that is released. nice A++ master race zero downsides besides not getting a flashy transformation skill(YET).
  Elf - Best range, otherwise you're just handicapping yourself. looks cutest(opinion), can wear almost as many outfits as humans.
  Giant - had best melee before, after the combat renovation you're just handicapping yourself in general. Humans can do everything better except fighter/ninja endgame, and those two skill sets are very situational. As a giant now, you basically make for the best tank in Mabinogi. nice. Least options when it comes to character creation, least amount of clothing, can have facial hair??
  
  Besides having the best smash damage, and full swings potential to do huge amounts of damage if you spend 5k on reforges, does anyone have any solid arguments as to why people should play a giant?
  
  Devcat needs to do a race revamp, either make it purely cosmetic differences in race, or give giants an actual edge back in melee, give elves a larger edge in range. Because as stated above, with devcat giving zero downsides to being human, downsides to being both elf and giant are piling up.
  
  My post went a little off topic, but just reading the quotes like "OH DEAR GOD DEVCAT IS CATERING MORE TO GIANTS" - humans, is like ??? o k then.

  
  
  Giants being able to use fanatic+bash with vales shield, not to mention the fact that they are in fact STRONGER mages in literal sense due to overture mechanics, and the fact that while it is difficult, giants can still hit the int cap. 50 int difference between elves and giants is nothing. Aside from "lesser" puppetry stats and not being able to use ranged, which is a blessing somewhat as that goddamn skillset is a cash sink, requiring more reforges for optimal use than any other skillset, and you can still miss. Aside from Final hit and the two new swords making humans top gun for the time being, being a giant doesn't disregard the fact that it is stupid easy to cap strength, despite the int hampering its possible there as well. Dex is the only stat a giant should struggle with, and even an elf can break 1000 str, its monumentally HARDER for a giant to break 1000 dex due to that being hampered excessively by level stat gains, and that a giant should rarely be caught in any dex-giving talent.
  
  And the arguments went that doing ranged was like torturing yourself, and puppets got strong enough with giants not to matter if humans somehow could do better, that made folks ticked that giants got just about everything. I mean come on, it took the goddamn renovation to actually slightly usurp the giants, and you do realize WHY they did it right? Its because there's something that's just about as bullshit as final hit now and we don't have it - Cast Speed Fix. If we got this, chaincast firebolt could potentially keep up with final hit on some things. Especially for multiple targets, as there's a delay with orientation for final hit teleport. But for some reason NA does not have it, and I can't check if JP got it or not.
  
  I do agree with you that there needs to be a race revamp, but after how the melee renovation turned out? I mean I don't mind the magic renovation, aside from a few questionable calls the magic renovation is at least not as bad as the other two. The ranged renovation was plain out rushed, with the whole thing not even being tested before porting to main client, AND the alban knight training camp was released as a complacency bonus.
  
  But the issue is that Devcat for one reason or another, wont be able to do that. the gigantic corporate abyss known as Nexon demands [s]blood[/s] content just about every two weeks to a month for major update chains, and forms a content chain about three to four times a year. That isn't even close to enough time to fully renovate the map, and they'd barely get off a baseline for it before knocking on the door started for content. Its either that or the KR community is right that the new director has his head shoved so far up his ass he can't see what direction he's taking. It sure does look like its being balanced by goddamn Guinsoo for christ's sake, pretty soon you'll be having another piece of work to behold that makes final hit look okay.