[Mabinogi KR Test] Renovation Update - Ranged Combat // 12th of Feburary, 2015

• Rydian wrote on 2015-04-30 15:27

  Quote from Esileruf;1273097:

  The ranged renovation was plain out rushed, with the whole thing not even being tested before porting to main client, AND the alban knight training camp was released as a complacency bonus.

  Going to have to disagree there.
  
  1 - A lot of ranged skills did actually get usability and accessibility improvements all-around (which was part of the point of Renovation), with some of them getting overall buffs either in damage or effectiveness. The archery update was not rushed. It just did not fix NA's archery problem because they (in KR) didn't attempt to fix it.
  
  In KR to a KR player the effect of server-sided aiming speed reducing actual aim percentage is much less than in NA so ranged isn't as much of a problem over there (since firing at "97%" is actually ~95% and not 75% and reforges are sold for gold by tons of players cheaper than in NA) and not as much stuff needed fixing, relatively.
  
  It's definitely sad that the aiming speed and missing is the critical part that kills the skillset for NA but wasn't KR's focus since it's not a problem for them... but we have yet to experience how exactly Urgent Shot plays out.
  
  A lot of the time people's assumptions about an upcoming skill are wrong. I kept reading people saying Rage Impact would be the new crowd control skill for melee units and I didn't see how it'd work with the small stun (and cancelling Lullaby, and it does NOT "prevent" aggro), now it gets here and after a few days everybody's telling me "Yeah I'm not really feeling it".
  
  
  2 - The training camp had a lot of effort put into it. To refer to it as something pushed out to make up for lack of content somewhere else is straight-up ignorant. You should go look at some videos and info and see just how much there is to it. All sorts of new textures, new BGM, new items, new mechanics, etc. This isn't some compensation item chest or some re-skinned Caravan Joe AFK event giving out already-existing prizes. The training camp is new content itself that they were working on for a while.
• Esileruf wrote on 2015-04-30 17:00

  Quote from Rydian;1273104:

  Going to have to disagree there.
  
  1 - A lot of ranged skills did actually get usability and accessibility improvements all-around (which was part of the point of Renovation), with some of them getting overall buffs either in damage or effectiveness. The archery update was not rushed. It just did not fix NA's archery problem because they (in KR) didn't attempt to fix it.
  
  In KR to a KR player the effect of server-sided aiming speed reducing actual aim percentage is much less than in NA so ranged isn't as much of a problem over there (since firing at "97%" is actually ~95% and not 75% and reforges are sold for gold by tons of players cheaper than in NA) and not as much stuff needed fixing, relatively.
  
  It's definitely sad that the aiming speed and missing is the critical part that kills the skillset for NA but wasn't KR's focus since it's not a problem for them... but we have yet to experience how exactly Urgent Shot plays out.
  
  A lot of the time people's assumptions about an upcoming skill are wrong. I kept reading people saying Rage Impact would be the new crowd control skill for melee units and I didn't see how it'd work with the small stun (and cancelling Lullaby, and it does NOT "prevent" aggro), now it gets here and after a few days everybody's telling me "Yeah I'm not really feeling it".
  
  
  2 - The training camp had a lot of effort put into it. To refer to it as something pushed out to make up for lack of content somewhere else is straight-up ignorant. You should go look at some videos and info and see just how much there is to it. All sorts of new textures, new BGM, new items, new mechanics, etc. This isn't some compensation item chest or some re-skinned Caravan Joe AFK event giving out already-existing prizes. The training camp is new content itself that they were working on for a while.

  
  
  I never meant that the training camp itself was rushed out, its done well and rushing it would have been impossible, but it stands that in comparison to the other two updates, the ranged update almost seems like small tweaks and improvements, really not doing as much as the mage or melee renovation had. Urgent shot does have its uses, yes, but like said, we have to actually see how it works out in NA.
  
  I have seen just about all there is for the alban knight training camp and I'm looking forward to it. The amount of work on it is astounding, but it simply just highlights that they put it out with the ranged update to offset that the update really didn't hit as hard as the other two. It does not change the fact no matter how well it is done that it overshadowed the ranged update and put the fact that ranged got a bite-sized snickers bar in comparison to melee.
  
  There are intrinsic differences between KR and NA that have been in existence for years, and they cause MANY changes of the update to take new facets in NA. They skew the field so that yes Human Melee has the crown, but it has no equivalent. It was meant to put all three on the pedestal, the fact that ranged is considered godlike over there and exceedingly powerful due to its potential, magic being nigh instantaneous lategame due to the cast speed being additive and properly working, and melee now having insane sheer force through bash and final hit, in addition to its other merits from critmills to lance charge+smash.
  
  And unlike several other games, there is NOTHING that changes this. No fact that even though something is considered first that a complete regime of problems, from the mob server in a constant state of decay/erroring, the positioning system being off HARD, to the lack of a cast speed fix, the range meter having a 50/50 chance of lying to you unless you're point blank, lances erroring HARD if you get position glitched, fighter as well. The only one that I know that KR has is the stutterstep, which is an error within the positioning system, but it is much less prevalent over there for whatever reason. I have not been able to do much work on it recently because it and its sister problems, one being the golems in hillwen mines losing their AI, aren't happening as much. Their occurrence is extremely haphazard now.
  
  The ranged update, in short, brought nothing interesting to ranged as well, yet gave the other two new toys. Ranged's skill variance is PITIFUL. All you have is Crash shot > Mag spam or AR pelting. It is insanely mind-numbing in comparison to the other two skillsets.
• Rydian wrote on 2015-04-30 17:05

  Quote from Esileruf;1273108:

  Ibut it stands that in comparison to the other two updates, the ranged update almost seems like small tweaks and improvements, really not doing as much as the mage or melee renovation had. Urgent shot does have its uses, yes, but like said, we have to actually see how it works out in NA.

  Yeah, the sad thing is for Ranged to work as a core skillset in NA (core being single stat-based stat-giving skillset used as a main attack method) the mechanics need to be changed around to either remove missing or make it much less probably or death-causing (especially as Archers use light armor or clothing).
  
  I'm trying to /get/ Urgent Shot in KR to do some tests, but given the lag I'm encountering going transcontinental, a lot of combat-based things are taking quite a long time.
• Esileruf wrote on 2015-04-30 17:19

  Quote from Rydian;1273109:

  Yeah, the sad thing is for Ranged to work as a core skillset in NA (core being single stat-based stat-giving skillset used as a main attack method) the mechanics need to be changed around to either remove missing or make it much less probably or death-causing (especially as Archers use light armor or clothing).
  
  I'm trying to /get/ Urgent Shot in KR to do some tests, but given the lag I'm encountering going transcontinental, a lot of combat-based things are taking quite a long time.

  
  
  From a perspective of someone who's done both human and elven ranged, it almost seems that urgent shot was to help elves a bit more. AR was always an excellent controlling tool, as if you missed once, you could easily land a second shot, and attack speed enhance makes it even better. I'll admit I haven't done human ranged in a while, but in comparison to my elf, I got my ass whooped a lot less, and I never had heavy armor back then as a mage either.
  
  Also, as an offhand note, Does the raft disposition glitch exist in KR? This is one of the most unique and old bugs dating back to the raft renovation I believe in NA, but I'm having a hard time finding out exactly what is happening on the server itself. I mention this specifically because using crash shot+ar was an acceptable replacement to thunder and did even better, but without a range-reforged bow, its a percentile nightmare.
• KingFintchz wrote on 2015-04-30 17:31
  I'm curious, would someone who thinks they do decent FH damage try to find out how much total damage they do during the duration of FH (on average) within the max duration of FH w/ and w/o reforge.
  Preferably with overture + weapon power pot + cater (if needed for cap str) only.
  Wear your best gears if you do the test... and maybe a video..
  sorry if I'm asking too much, I'm just really curious to see how much total damage one can do within the skill duration.
• gundamweed wrote on 2015-04-30 17:39

  Quote from KingFintchz;1273113:

  I'm curious, would someone who thinks they do decent FH damage try to find out how much total damage they do during the duration of FH (on average) within the max duration of FH w/ and w/o reforge.
  Preferably with overture + weapon power pot + cater (if needed for cap str) only.
  Wear your best gears if you do the test... and maybe a video..
  sorry if I'm asking too much, I'm just really curious to see how much total damage one can do within the skill duration.

  
  
  I don't remember where i heard it, but apparently someone claimed breaking a provocation wall with a single FH use. I don't know about you, but that's a lot of damage in that short time
• Slayerj wrote on 2015-04-30 17:41

  Quote from gundamweed;1273115:

  I don't remember where i heard it, but apparently someone claimed breaking a provocation wall with a single FH use. I don't know about you, but that's a lot of damage in that short time

  
  
  Don't those walls have more/less HP depending on the difficulty of the mission?
• Oberynn wrote on 2015-04-30 18:30

  Quote from KingFintchz;1273113:

  I'm curious, would someone who thinks they do decent FH damage try to find out how much total damage they do during the duration of FH (on average) within the max duration of FH w/ and w/o reforge.
  Preferably with overture + weapon power pot + cater (if needed for cap str) only.
  Wear your best gears if you do the test... and maybe a video..
  sorry if I'm asking too much, I'm just really curious to see how much total damage one can do within the skill duration.

  
  
  Make me a hot choco and find me a 48%+ buffer and I can help test!
  
  Though it's probably around 1m damage without duration reforge or elemental reforges. 2.5m+ with duration reforge and dual ele 3 probably.
• ironwoman wrote on 2015-04-30 18:38

  Quote from KingFintchz;1273113:

  I'm curious, would someone who thinks they do decent FH damage try to find out how much total damage they do during the duration of FH (on average) within the max duration of FH w/ and w/o reforge.
  Preferably with overture + weapon power pot + cater (if needed for cap str) only.
  Wear your best gears if you do the test... and maybe a video..
  sorry if I'm asking too much, I'm just really curious to see how much total damage one can do within the skill duration.

  
  
  Pretty sure KR server did this. I would repeat the test, but I lack the bone chips, and not willing to use weapon power potions I got from raids.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-04-30 18:59

  Quote from Rydian;1273104:

  Going to have to disagree there.
  
  1 - A lot of ranged skills did actually get usability and accessibility improvements all-around (which was part of the point of Renovation), with some of them getting overall buffs either in damage or effectiveness.

  
  
  What.
  

  
  
  • Why is Archery still in the Combat tab?
    
  • Aiming is still arguably a problem, specifically in situations like resetting the aiming meter when switching targets.
    
  • Luck Evasion is still a problem, and should never have existed in the first place. Getting the meter to 100% requires the target to stand still, which, except for a derpy AI, no one is going to do.
    
  • Spider Shot is still terrible for party play, and is still a terrible holding skill compared to others.
    
  • Final Shot is still shit, it still has a load time and a load time decrease (which literally does nothing, what is load time?), and has a stupidly long cooldown.
    
  • Magic Missile is still shit.
    
  • Throwing Attack got senselessly buffed the wrong way.
    
  • Elves still pale in archery compared to Humans.
    
  • Crash Shot still remains the only useful area of effect skill (Mirage may or may not be shit, Magnum splash is shit, and Magic Missile is shit).
    
  • Lack of diversity; needs more skills.
    
• Zekkii wrote on 2015-04-30 19:07

  Quote from Froon;1273093:

  [spoiler=Long Post]@People who think throwing attack is "OP" now, it really isn't.
  
  @People freaking out about devcat apparently catering to giants, you know that's bullshit, right? Prior to the FH buff, and giving humans superior bash to giants, things were fine. Giants had a slight advantage w/ melee damage, which is how it should be ... ? Picking a giant after the combat renovation is like purely doing so to handicap yourself, or in order to be big, if that's a thing. Fashionogi giants, anyone?
  
  
  Giants currently have weaker melee than humans, weakest range, weakest magic, weakest puppet, stronger gunner than elf, on par with human when including all buffs, strongest fighter, alchemy ?????? ninja???? strongest ninja maybe who cares? this is right up there with fighter on things that don't matter much.
  
  but because giants used to have better melee than humans, and took 1 with a vales shield while having defense loaded, this made giants "master race", and it was completely unfair to elf/human that they existed.
  
  Currently what the game looks like as far as races are concerned :
  Human - highest DPS, versatile, can do everything. can wear all clothing that is released. nice A++ master race zero downsides besides not getting a flashy transformation skill(YET).
  Elf - Best range, otherwise you're just handicapping yourself. looks cutest(opinion), can wear almost as many outfits as humans.
  Giant - had best melee before, after the combat renovation you're just handicapping yourself in general. Humans can do everything better except fighter/ninja endgame, and those two skill sets are very situational. As a giant now, you basically make for the best tank in Mabinogi. nice. Least options when it comes to character creation, least amount of clothing, can have facial hair??
  
  Besides having the best smash damage, and full swings potential to do huge amounts of damage if you spend 5k on reforges, does anyone have any solid arguments as to why people should play a giant?
  
  Devcat needs to do a race revamp, either make it purely cosmetic differences in race, or give giants an actual edge back in melee, give elves a larger edge in range. Because as stated above, with devcat giving zero downsides to being human, downsides to being both elf and giant are piling up.
  
  My post went a little off topic, but just reading the quotes like "OH DEAR GOD DEVCAT IS CATERING MORE TO GIANTS" - humans, is like ??? o k then.[/spoiler]

  
  I can agree with that. Every race is horrendously overpowered so it doesn't matter though.
• Fracture wrote on 2015-04-30 19:18

  Quote from Darkboy132;1273121:

  
  

  
  
  • Elves still pale in archery compared to Humans.
    

  
  
  You say that like it's a bad thing.
• Rydian wrote on 2015-04-30 19:35

  Quote from Darkboy132;1273121:

  What.
  

  
  
  • Why is Archery still in the Combat tab?

  I made no mention of anything relating to that in any format whatsoever at any point here.
  
  

  Quote from Darkboy132;1273121:

  
  
  • Aiming is still arguably a problem, specifically in situations like resetting the aiming meter when switching targets.

  I said that aiming is still archery's problem.
  I mentioned it at least twice, actually.
  
  
  
  Let's go over what actually happened in the conversation.
  
  1 - Esileruf said "The ranged renovation was plain out rushed". This implies that there were little to no changes due to the time spent on it being minimal.
  
  2 - I responded stating that a lot of ranged skills actually got a number of changes. Indeed, every single active ranged skill got multiple changes. I mentioned that these changes were focused on things like usability (as various ones got cooldown improvements, Spider Shot made the traps way faster to obtain, etc.) and some of them got damage increases (Mirage Missile for one). They also changed weapon upgrades and skill use with Crossbows, for example.
  
  That's what actually happened.
  
  I stated that the archery renovation update was not rushed. Any statements from me that it fixes archery's problems or rebalances the races or whatever are figments of your imagination.
• Zeo wrote on 2015-04-30 20:47

  Quote from Fracture;1273125:

  You say that like it's a bad thing.

  
  
  It is though. Elves should be the best race at archery and also magic as well.
  
  Not humans. The archery update basically favor humans more than elves in many ways, and humans are still better with archery than elves is more than 90% of the times.
• Esileruf wrote on 2015-04-30 21:13

  Quote from Zeo;1273131:

  It is though. Elves should be the best race at archery and also magic as well.
  
  Not humans. The archery update basically favor humans more than elves in many ways, and humans are still better with archery than elves is more than 90% of the times.

  
  
  Urgent shot imo addresses an issue with elven archery, not precisely human archery.
  AR's control is one of the strongest in the game, with a 2-shot bow being able to realistically control two, possibly three multiaggro'd monsters. Not to mention a full 5 AR shots can beat out a single magnum with the crit potential being higher, due to 33% x 5, rather than 33% x 1. With the potential to beat out two magnums.
  
  Elven archery would need to either become a bit more robust or bit more glass-cannoney, or possibly faster. One idea voiced I believe was to reduce Crash shot's cooldown, fix the load time reduction under final shot to cooldown reduction, which mind you was not addressed during the update at all. Its needed to change something so that elven archery doesn't look like a minor change from human archery. I mean giants have several different mechanics and multipliers with their melee, along with several different skills in a myriad of ways. There's a two skill difference for the races. Final Shot and Mirage missile for elves and Arrow Revolver for humans. One can't even consider Mirage missile being exceedingly useful outside of niche situations, and final shot is like a buff rather than an actual skill. Its impossible to even outdamage or outdo AR with final shot and regular ranged attack, and you'd have to have something LOCKED DOWN for final shot to out do say, crash shot into any other skillset. I wouldn't mind a pin shot that reduced move speed and made ranged attacks stun instead of knockdown. I wouldn't say no to a few 'melee' attacks that work with bows for controlling things and potential movement. I wouldn't even think against ANY skill that was its own standalone, since urgent shot is a solution ability to missing a ranged shot, not its own skill to base off of.
  
  And despite what people think, I actually don't mind humans having a better support shot. They should be able to use range as a supportive and utility rather than a full cannon skillset, it supports their hybridization idea.
  
  But while the ranged update did have some changes, it just felt like they didn't put anything towards it really. That they started off with some ideas and then fell off after a while. I mean the mage update started as simple changes, then brought in new skills and new staves with an actual twist, being able to use party heal or have a more efficient, rather than powerhouse, staff. The melee update brought in several welcome changes and although the skills are completely nuts, they bring something to the table, albeit overmuch.
  
  The ranged update brought in a crossbow that's said to be far more effective in content than the bhafel, and a skill that solves an elven based issue rather than a human one.
  
  Afternote: I'm probably sounding like a broken record or a parrot, but for the most part while the renovation is an expected disappointment, the ranged is by far the most. It hit far less than the other two updates and I don't think the renovation extra even GAVE it anything more. I think one of the crossbows had an edited recipe? What is the new recipe anyways?