[Mabinogi KR Test] Renovation Update - Ranged Combat // 12th of Feburary, 2015

• willcaster wrote on 2015-02-06 19:42
  my apologies for this but:
  
  I need more information! im refreshing every 5 minutes
• Osayidan wrote on 2015-02-06 20:13

  Quote from Darkboy132;1264224:

  Please for the love of god, before doing that FIX THE DAMN GLITCH! It's going to contribute even further to trolling and also penalize our blessings and exp.

  
  Totally forgot about that. Do not want.
  
  
  -- sent via mobile
• DefinitelyNotTwin wrote on 2015-02-06 20:23
  Anything about Short Bows?
• Kelvas wrote on 2015-02-06 20:28
  Good start I guess.
  The aiming system itself isn't required anymore, since the meta is significantly faster in terms of speed now. I understand why people may say that removing the system entirely could potentially make archery broken, but in its current state, archery is rather slow when you miss half your magnums and crash shots when the server is lagging. Additionally, archery has a slow growth, and having the aiming system removed/revamped could definitely aid people who are not on end game archery, since that's where the bulk of the fun is. Of course, the logical solution is a compromise, like the suggestion Rixx made. I hope the director takes aiming in consideration for part 2.
  
  I want to see what else the director plans on doing for archery. Hopefully, if its good enough, I might actually start ranking refine, and start wishing I was an elf. At this current stage, I'll just stick with my guns since I can already start seeing it surpassing my speed with magic (despite much lower damage, since I lack sufficient gear) on some of the easier HM missions.
  
  
  

  Quote from Darkboy132;1264220:

  Are we or are we not talking about WotG? Because that shit is horribly broken. Gunner OUTSIDE of WotG is not fast; it has notoriously long animations that is pretty much on par with close combat's speed, which partially contributes to Grapple Shot's and Bullet Slide's uselessness. As I've said before, Gunner normal shots contribute to a very very short stun with a long time to refire. I seriously doubt Gunner can effectively kill a boss round NPC without using WotG.
  
  I don't main archery, however I can immediately reload Magnum by the time the enemy hits the ground, as a human. It doesn't take more than a second to double click the enemy. 500% damage every ~2 seconds is pretty high, especially when Smash, Flash Launcher, Shuriken Charge, etc. don't compare.
  

  
  
  For everyday usage:
  >le gunner goes into daily HM or elite
  >BFO, and hits orb
  >Shooting rush
  >everything dies
  >wave 2
  >shooting rush or crisis > bullet storm
  >everything dies
  >rinse and repeat
  
  Gunner is faster than most talents as far as I can tell (given proper setup), even without using Frenzy, which in some cases, would be slower when there're a lot of monsters, serious gunners can[S]rhape[/S] kill waves faster than most other skillsets.
  
  As for corner 1v1 damage you can do it with smash using AoE pets and maybe some normal attacks too.
• Kingofrunes wrote on 2015-02-06 20:29

  Quote from willcaster;1264226:

  my apologies for this but:
  
  I need more information! im refreshing every 5 minutes

  
  
  We've provided most of the information we have. There really isn't a whole lot to this first round of the update. Only thing we can really mention is more details about some of the upgrades. I'll have to check with Teto to see if I can share some of that info...
  
  Permission granted! Here is the new Atlas upgrades
  [spoiler="Atlas Upgrades"]
  

  [Image: http://puu.sh/fxHof/7af59a4e8a.png]

  
  [/spoiler]
  
  Special thanks to Teto for this!
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-02-06 21:19

  Quote from Kelvas;1264233:

  For everyday usage:
  >le gunner goes into daily HM or elite
  >BFO, and hits orb
  >Shooting rush
  >everything dies
  >wave 2
  >shooting rush or crisis > bullet storm
  >everything dies
  >rinse and repeat
  
  Gunner is faster than most talents as far as I can tell (given proper setup), even without using Frenzy, which in some cases, would be slower when there're a lot of monsters, serious gunners can[S]rhape[/S] kill waves faster than most other skillsets.
  
  As for corner 1v1 damage you can do it with smash using AoE pets and maybe some normal attacks too.

  
  
  Shooting Rush spam; exactly goes to show how useless the other gunner skills are. Also SR is terrible for cornering because it pushes mobs out of the corner.
  
  Smash/Normal attack spam on a cornered mob is bad. Hugging the enemy can cause a lot of risks due to being within the enemy's reach, especially if they have Instinctive Reaction. Also slow given its cooldown and the fact that they cause i-frames.
  
  My point is, Magnum spam with 100% accuracy given its very short cooldown and quick re-fire is going to out DPS a lot of things. It shouldn't be buffed to the same level as Firebolt or WotG.
• Kaeporo wrote on 2015-02-06 21:20
  That's the problem with all of this power creep. You eventually reach the point where clicking a button nukes the entire mission. Archery has accuracy issues? Remove aiming. Oh, ninja/gunslinger don't have enough range? Give them more range.
  
  Skills like Barrier Spikes, Mirage Missile, and tactics like exercising caution or using teamwork don't really apply to a game that you can decimate by level 1,000 at little risk.
  
  Anyone who thinks archery should have its aiming system removed haven't fully realized the long-term implications of that change on the direction of Mabinogi. Sure, Firebolt hits hard and doesn't have accuracy issues...but it also heavily restricts your skill selection. Even still, that's more an indication that Firebolt should get nerfed; too strong, too easily.
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-02-06 21:31

  Quote from Kaeporo;1264241:

  Oh, ninja/gunslinger don't have enough range? Give them more range.

  
  
  To be fair, Grapple Shot, Bullet Slide, and Bullet Storm are difficult to utilize primarily because of their shit range. Gun normal attack by itself is highly punishable because of its short range and very little window to react, so if you introduce Gunner to a newb they'll most likely die because of that. I wouldn't mind if Normal range was slightly increased from 700-800 to 1k, giving slightly more opportunities to react. GS and BS (especially Slide, which is even shorter than normal attacking) all need huge buffs to their range so they have more utility.
  
  Ninja's 1.3k range is large enough as it is. It doesn't need to go further and match Archery's.
• Zeo wrote on 2015-02-06 22:47

  Quote from Darkboy132;1264224:

  Please for the love of god, before doing that FIX THE DAMN GLITCH! It's going to contribute even further to trolling and also penalize our blessings and exp.

  
  
  Hydra doesn't kill players in PvP but it does for mobs. So they'll be likely to do the same... Still cause players even outside the PvP but still doesn't kill them.
• Osayidan wrote on 2015-02-06 22:59

  Quote from Zeo;1264254:

  Hydra doesn't kill players in PvP but it does for mobs. So they'll be likely to do the same... Still cause players even outside the PvP but still doesn't kill them.

  
  
  I think they should still fix that while they're already fiddling with archery anyways.
  Even if at some point they decided to leave it for whatever reason (teach people the terrible consequences of bio-warfare? I dunno) it's gotten pretty old.
• ReFuSeR wrote on 2015-02-06 23:35

  Quote from Rixx;1264190:

  There's a lot of controversy in KR regarding aiming system.
  Basically it's Remove Aiming Please vs Aiming Should Stay.
  I'll try to summarise both sides' points and give my opinion.
  
  Remove Aiming Please
  

  • Aiming system is obsolete, Dual Guns and Ninja skills can hit without aiming.
    
  • Mages have greater control over their Mana pool, their penalty regarding Mana scarcity is almost non-existent.
    
  • Monsters move. Shooting at 100% is near impossible unless you're soloing at a very slow speed.

  
  
  Aiming Should Stay
  

  • Removing aiming system is stupid. Archery is already OP.
    
  • Imagine shooting at distance 2700 with almost no delay, at 100%.

  
  
  
  Here's my opinion, more like a suggestion for devCAT.
  

  • Remove Aiming System if you are within 1/4 range of your bow/crossbow's maximum range. e.g. 2000 range bow, you can hit at 100% within 500 range, with no aiming.
    
  • Add 0.5~1 second waiting time when you target an enemy. This can solve "omg no delay 100% shots too op".

  
  
  
  The reason for posting this is because I want to hear what you guys think on this topic.
  Do you think Aiming System needs a rework? Or should it stay the way it is on KR Test?

  
  
  I think the idea to remove the aiming system at 1/4 of total range distance is quite creative, but should be implemented very carefully or at least with the reworking of urgent shot. It personally think it would render urgent shot useless if you could fire without aiming system as they get closer. Maybe that's what the second point you made makes an attempt to combat... however I just don't like the idea of adding a .5 second delay after targeting an enemy. It feels quite like loading time which is what they removed with the dynamic combat update.(which an exception to mage skills and other things) I feel a better disadvantage to firing without an aiming system would be reduced damage. Reworking urgent shot to push enemies out of that 1/4 range would also help to keep damage at a maximum.
  
  So my idea is:
  
  

  
  
  • Remove aiming system if your enemy is within 1/4 of your bow's maximum distance.
    
  • Reduce damage slightly(50-75% of total damage? Maybe a rng for 50-75%?) if enemy is within that 1/4 range of bow's maximum distance.
    

  
  
  Putting my hate for elves aside...
  With further brainstorming I thought of this:
  
  Rework of Ranged Attack & Arrow Revolver which includes adding skill to the elf race:
  

  
  
  • Remove aiming system for arrow revolver except make it only work at 1/4 of bow's maximum distance.(maybe make last shot require aiming?)
    
  • Rework Ranged Attack to balance lack of far range arrow revolver for humans.(couldn't think of any exacts for this, but a speeding up fire rate should be enough?)
    
• Rixx wrote on 2015-02-06 23:43

  Quote from ReFuSeR;1264261:

  I think the idea to remove the aiming system at 1/4 of total range distance is quite creative, but should be implemented very carefully or at least with the reworking of urgent shot. It personally think it would render urgent shot useless if you could fire without aiming system as they get closer. Maybe that's what the second point you made makes an attempt to combat... however I just don't like the idea of adding a .5 second delay after targeting an enemy. It feels quite like loading time which is what they removed with the dynamic combat update.(which an exception to mage skills and other things) I feel a better disadvantage to firing without an aiming system would be reduced damage. Reworking urgent shot to push enemies out of that 1/4 range would also help to keep damage at a maximum.
  
  So my idea is:
  
  

  
  
  • Remove aiming system if your enemy is within 1/4 of your bow's maximum distance.
    
  • Reduce damage slightly(50-75% of total damage? Maybe a rng for 50-75%?) if enemy is within that 1/4 range of bow's maximum distance.
    

  
  
  Putting my hate for elves aside...
  With further brainstorming I thought of this:
  
  Rework of Ranged Attack & Arrow Revolver which includes adding skill to the elf race:
  

  
  
  • Remove aiming system for arrow revolver except make it only work at 1/4 of bow's maximum distance.(maybe make last shot require aiming?)
    
  • Rework Ranged Attack to balance lack of far range arrow revolver for humans.(couldn't think of any exacts for this, but a speeding up fire rate should be enough?)
    

  
  
  Nice idea.
  I really like how people are coming up with different ideas :)
  
  I also read this somewhere, I'll share it with you.
  It's a little similar but totally different.
  
  - Don't remove aiming system
  - If you miss, you will still hit.
  - However the 'missed shot' will only have an impact of the % damage that you fired at.
  * Say you fired at 30% and it missed, in the new system, it would hit and deal 30% of normal damage you'd get.
  
  While it does relieve stress on archers, it will be considered OP especially with current Elf's magnum shot cooldown (0.5 sec).
  So I thought maybe they could increase cooldown time for magnum shot. 2 seconds for all race sound fair to me.
• Burningsky wrote on 2015-02-06 23:53
  Final shot buff is actually really important. Second wotg heyoooo.
  Support shot buff is actually a buff to melee.
  Increased stun make archery better at supportive play, not solo play.
  
  From what's been said seems like it's still going to miss just as much.
  Crossbows buffed but still leagues below bow damage. No reason to have terrible range unless you have lance levels of piercing.
  
  For aiming: no aiming is okay in theory BUT needs to be gated in some other way- i.e. gunner's ammo system (1-5 shots per reload?) by cd (it kind of already is, but 5s on instamag is still pretty strong when used as a secondary)
  
  On humans versus elves: AR, SS, and RA are all faster, mag and CS the same. Elf range cooldowns are lower, meaning less cd gating, and higher theoretical dps. Don't really want to graph dps/aim% graphs to figure out optimal aim% for actual dps. Multipliers are all the same, dex pool is very nearly the same.
  
  From this we can conclude that humans have a pvp advantage in range vs. range, and elves have higher theoretical dps against chunky mobs that don't die in 1-3 hits.
  
  On human archery needing love: Not when elves need a heavy armor penalty, lower def/prot, lower multipliers on melee skills, and lower scaling on 5/8 skillsets due to str dependency.
  
  There needs to be nuances to choice. You can't just say humans have equal scaling on bard, magic and alchemy and better scaling on melee, lance, gunner, puppeteer, ninja, and sometimes range.
  
  But you know, elves run pretty fast and that matters when aggro control doesn't matter and mobs and pets runner faster anyway.
  
  Little affidavit on the importance of aimspeed and why it makes humans (sometimes) better at range: aim% is like a second type of balance where low enough aim(balance) will reduce your damage to 0 regardless of what your character max is. This is problematic for range because there is no way to make up for this loss in damage other than only firing at 100%. Which has bugs anyway and can still miss at 140% aim because range is poorly constructed.
  
  Does this apply to range dps? Not really. The two dominate dps sources, magnum and crash shot, have the same aim% between elves and humans, and quite frankly still miss too much because their aimspeed hasn't been adjusted since their release in g1/g12, though load time of everything else was buffed by like 500% in dynamic combat.
  If you were to compare more consistent range dps, say AR versus elven RA, then AR wins out because it has faster aimspeed(balance), and higher multipliers.
  
  tl;dr some good changes, why the fk is human range (sometimes) faster when elves are supposed to be ranged masters, elf ranged max and human ranged max are way closer than elf melee max and human melee max.
  
  EDIT: Clarity
  
  EDIT2: You could have minimum aim%. Say magnum shot aims begins at 20% instead of 0%. No changes to max damage numbers but the increase in dps goes through the roof.
  
  Other possible utility buffs for elves: normal range will continue to aim up to 100% while running. Magnum shot and crash shot will aim during running animation up to a maximum accuracy of 50%
  
  EDIT3: Fact checking and clarity
• ReFuSeR wrote on 2015-02-06 23:57

  Quote from Rixx;1264262:

  Nice idea.
  I really like how people are coming up with different ideas :)
  
  I also read this somewhere, I'll share it with you.
  It's a little similar but totally different.
  
  - Don't remove aiming system
  - If you miss, you will still hit.
  - However the 'missed shot' will only have an impact of the % damage that you fired at.
  * Say you fired at 30% and it missed, in the new system, it would hit and deal 30% of normal damage you'd get.
  
  While it does relieve stress on archers, it will be considered OP especially with current Elf's magnum shot cooldown (0.5 sec).
  So I thought maybe they could increase cooldown time for magnum shot. 2 seconds for all race sound fair to me.

  
  
  I actually like the idea of misses still hitting the target with reduced damage. However, the stun time should be lowered so it's not too op, this will give archers even more reason to make sure their attacks hit besides just lowered damage.
  
  Over all I like the idea a lot more than the others I've seen, including mine lol.
• ReFuSeR wrote on 2015-02-06 23:59

  Quote from Burningsky;1264264:

  Final shot buff is actually really important. Second wotg heyoooo.
  

  
  
  3rd if combat update comes before range update. :) FH too pro
  
  Edit: please excuse double post, I assumed it woulda auto merged like other forums lol