[Mabinogi KR Test] Renovation Update - Ranged Combat // 12th of Feburary, 2015

• Burningsky wrote on 2015-02-07 00:14

  Quote from ReFuSeR;1264266:

  3rd if combat update comes before range update. :) FH too pro
  
  Edit: please excuse double post, I assumed it woulda auto merged like other forums lol

  
  
  Please don't give final shot to humans LOL. If we're removing the race-specific skills might as well give giants alatl revolver and give elves windcloak
• Kaon wrote on 2015-02-07 00:15

  Quote from Darkboy132;1264220:

  Are we or are we not talking about WotG? Because that shit is horribly broken. Gunner OUTSIDE of WotG is not fast; it has notoriously long animations that is pretty much on par with close combat's speed, which partially contributes to Grapple Shot's and Bullet Slide's uselessness. As I've said before, Gunner normal shots contribute to a very very short stun with a long time to refire. I seriously doubt Gunner can effectively kill a boss round NPC without using WotG.
  
  I don't main archery, however I can immediately reload Magnum by the time the enemy hits the ground, as a human. It doesn't take more than a second to double click the enemy. 500% damage every ~2 seconds is pretty high, especially when Smash, Flash Launcher, Shuriken Charge, etc. don't compare.
  

  
  
  Guns are sorta slow with taunes I guess but if you run dowras, and especially an attack speed set, the whole skillset feels really fast and dynamic. And the normals are beautiful if you have any kiting mechanics at all. The normal attacks are fast and responsive.. but if you just pick up random guns, not so much. Also if your connection sucks.
  As for grapple and bullet slide not being useful.. in the party aoe spam meta we have (which is mostly inevitable in most mmos cause efficiency), yeah, you only like use two skills per skillset for that anyway, but for solo play, they're amazingly useful.. I think people really undervalue mobility.
  
  ..also what animations are you referring to? Any animation that's sorta long has a benefit to it.
• Zekkii wrote on 2015-02-07 00:22

  Quote from Kaeporo;1264241:

  Anyone who thinks archery should have its aiming system removed haven't fully realized the long-term implications of that change on the direction of Mabinogi. Sure, Firebolt hits hard and doesn't have accuracy issues...but it also heavily restricts your skill selection. Even still, that's more an indication that Firebolt should get nerfed; too strong, too easily.

  
  I don't get why you're the only one who thinks so. It's like everyone's trying to top final hit for DPS or something.
• ReFuSeR wrote on 2015-02-07 00:28

  Quote from Burningsky;1264268:

  Please don't give final shot to humans LOL. If we're removing the race-specific skills might as well give giants alatl revolver and give elves windcloak

  
  
  I actually suggested Javelin Revolver before LOL. Oh the amount of elf rage that got.
• Burningsky wrote on 2015-02-07 00:36

  Quote from ReFuSeR;1264271:

  I actually suggested Javelin Revolver before LOL. Oh the amount of elf rage that got.

  
  
  If you normalize all the racial attributes, i.e. skills, stats from skills, movement speed, base stats, and stats per level, it just makes the game pretty generic. not to mention you can triple trans with falcon/beast/paladin/dk. But hey, it's fair right?
  
  Ontopic: I think devcat wanted bows to be for elves. Cause you know, they start with one in the tutorial LOL
• DefinitelyNotTwin wrote on 2015-02-07 00:43

  Quote from Darkboy132;1264242:

  To be fair, Grapple Shot, Bullet Slide, and Bullet Storm are difficult to utilize primarily because of their shit range. Gun normal attack by itself is highly punishable because of its short range and very little window to react, so if you introduce Gunner to a newb they'll most likely die because of that.

  
  
  
  Guns isn't really for beginners tbh.Speaking as a full time Gunner tho,comboing these skills together properly with others make the user near untouchable
• Darkboy132 wrote on 2015-02-07 01:10

  Quote from Zeo;1264254:

  Hydra doesn't kill players in PvP but it does for mobs. So they'll be likely to do the same... Still cause players even outside the PvP but still doesn't kill them.

  
  
  Huh... I heard Celestial Spike does though? Either way it needs to be fixed.
  
  

  Quote from Kaon;1264269:

  Guns are sorta slow with taunes I guess but if you run dowras, and especially an attack speed set, the whole skillset feels really fast and dynamic. And the normals are beautiful if you have any kiting mechanics at all. The normal attacks are fast and responsive.. but if you just pick up random guns, not so much. Also if your connection sucks.
  As for grapple and bullet slide not being useful.. in the party aoe spam meta we have (which is mostly inevitable in most mmos cause efficiency), yeah, you only like use two skills per skillset for that anyway, but for solo play, they're amazingly useful.. I think people really undervalue mobility.
  
  ..also what animations are you referring to? Any animation that's sorta long has a benefit to it.

  
  
  Kiting with normal shots doesn't seem even remotely possible for a human, even with an attack speed set, though I could be wrong. You are an elf, after all.
  
  Grapple Shot and Bullet Slide do have some use, but that use is very hard to pull off effectively due to the massive flaws they have, most notably the small range. Every gunner skill is easily overshadowed by Shooting Rush and Way of the Gun.
  
  Almost every gunner skill has some long animation that locks your character until the animation is complete. This makes it hard to attack and chain effectively while also increasing vulnerability to multi-aggro. That is one of the sole problems that close combat has.
• ReFuSeR wrote on 2015-02-07 01:51

  Quote from Darkboy132;1264278:

  Huh... I heard Celestial Spike does though? Either way it needs to be fixed.
  

  
  I heard of players using Celestial Spike to kill players that don't have EvG on and NPCs. Pretty hilarious if that's actually true. Not sure if it's a bug or hack though.
• Slayerj wrote on 2015-02-07 02:56

  Quote from ReFuSeR;1264265:

  I actually like the idea of misses still hitting the target with reduced damage. However, the stun time should be lowered so it's not too op, this will give archers even more reason to make sure their attacks hit besides just lowered damage.
  
  Over all I like the idea a lot more than the others I've seen, including mine lol.

  
  
  I've listed that idea a few times in the ideas thread here on the forums (not sure if I was the first though, kinda doubt it) but yeah, at x% for a skill you have little to no stun/ little to no knockback or reduced knockback. Getting to 100%, as it takes a while, actually buffed dmg very slightly in the way of balance and stun/knockback. I was really hoping they'd just do something like that with range but..it's still early on.
• ReFuSeR wrote on 2015-02-07 03:29

  Quote from Slayerj;1264287:

  I've listed that idea a few times in the ideas thread here on the forums (not sure if I was the first though, kinda doubt it) but yeah, at x% for a skill you have little to no stun/ little to no knockback or reduced knockback. Getting to 100%, as it takes a while, actually buffed dmg very slightly in the way of balance and stun/knockback. I was really hoping they'd just do something like that with range but..it's still early on.

  
  
  It most definitely seems to be the best suggestion I've seen. I'd love to hear the opinions of others about that suggestion here on nation.
• Avino wrote on 2015-02-07 07:44
  Yummy.. Throwing attack.
• Rydian wrote on 2015-02-07 08:38
  Well there's the possibility to turn aim percent into damage percent (like in Secret of Mana and other such games), but unless there's thresholds for still missing (must aim to at least 50% or something to get 100% hit chance) to avoid abusing...
  
  So like
  

  • If you want to chain fire at less than 50%, you have less than 50% chance to hit.
    
  • Aim to above 50%, you /will/ hit but won't do full damage by spamming attacks.
    
  • Let the aim meter hit 90%+, and you'll do full damage.

  
  Though for this to be usable without lowering overall DPS of pretty much every player, the whole "aim meter slows down at the end" would have to be removed. Also not sure if 50% is a good threshold or not, just bringing up the idea of changing how the meter works in general.
  
  

  Quote from Kingofrunes;1264165:

  Seems a lot of things for archery are not in the data files >.>

  May be things that the client calculating won't work reliably for, then.
  
  

  Quote from ReFuSeR;1264282:

  I heard of players using Celestial Spike to kill players that don't have EvG on and NPCs. Pretty hilarious if that's actually true. Not sure if it's a bug or hack though.

  Combo of both. A bit of a hack to force-target something, then the bug is that the skill doesn't obey the whole "can I actually attack this?" logic that almost everything else in the game does.
• Kapra wrote on 2015-02-07 10:10

  Quote from ReFuSeR;1264266:

  Edit: please excuse double post, I assumed it woulda auto merged like other forums lol

  
  Foreign content section is exempt of traditional double posting and necroposting rules.
• Rixx wrote on 2015-02-07 10:31
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  [SIZE="6"]Giant Javelin Revamp, is this normal??[/SIZE]
  
  
  Title was something I wanted to say to the developers, you don't have to mind it.
  Developers and players are different. Developers are people who maintain the system, naturally they know more than players and care more.
  However I'd like to point out that current test server's Javelin patch is abnormally unbalanced.
  
  
  
  Let's compare Giant Archer and Human Archer.
  
  [Giant Archer]
  Javelin 650 Damage, Throwing Rank 1 900%, Throwing Master +10%, Gloves Reforge 200%, Elemental 6 Level
  Javelin 650 * [ ( 900 + 200 ) * 1.1 ] * 1.55 = 12,190
  
  [Human Archer]
  Bhafel Set 850 Damage, Magnum Shot 500%, No master title bonus, Gloves Reforge 200%, Accessories 60%, Bohemian 15%, Elemental 6 Level
  Bhafel Hunter 850 * ( 500 + 200 + 60 ) * 1.15 (huntress) * 1.7 (Elemental + Bohemian) = 12,629
  
  
  
  Surprisingly, Giant and Human Archers have similar damage output. (There is Piercing Level 2 for Bhafel, but Bhafel Hunter has Effective Range of 2000 and Javelin has 2400, so I'll disregard their pros and cons in this analysis.)
  
  Considering Elf and Human Arhcers have similar damage,
  does this mean Human Magnum = Elf Magnum = Giant Throwing????
  
  I'm starting to doubt the Developers' sanity at this point.
  
  
  
  Disregarding possible max damage output, if we consider DPS (Damage Per Second) there is more gap. Elf has Magnum Shot cooldown of 0.5 second, so we'll exclude Elves.
  
  DPS gap opens widely depending on whether Human Archer shoots faster than Javelin's 4 seconds cooldown.
  
  Human Archer's Magnum Shot has 1.5 second cooldown, but if the aiming time exceeds 2.5 seconds, it's not even better than Giant's Throwing Attack.
  
  
  
  Giant's Throwing Attack is at 99% right after loading. When we calculate the distance for Human Archers to reach 99% Aim at 2.5 seconds, we can conclude that it is at 1/4 distance of the bow's maximum Effective Range, give or take a bit.
  (Approximately 8 seconds from maximum distance, 4 seconds at 1/2 distance, 2.8 seconds at 1/4 distance, 1.3 second at point blank.)
  
  The widely-used bow Bhafel Hunter and Black Dragon Knight's Bows have Effective Range of 2000, therefore Human Archers are only advantageous over Giant Archers if they are within 500 units of distance, other than that Giants will always be better than Human Archers.
  For a Human Archer to be advantageous than Giant Archers, they always have to shoot below 99% Aim, so we can conclude that they can never escape the stress of missed shots.
  
  I thought this kind of patch is very illogical and abnormal, so I wrote this up.
  
  
  
  Source: http://www.mabinogi.pe.kr/bbs/zboard.php?id=forum&no=950
  
  
  Back to navigation menu
• Zeo wrote on 2015-02-07 11:04
  Here is some of my feedbacks.
  
  Aiming Changes: I don't really see any difference... it's still shit like usual. Grade F
  
  Crossbow Changes: Good change... but I still can see people preferring long-ranged bow over this. Grade C-
  
  Mirage Missile: decreasing the movement speed even more, plus killing mobs from residual damage is good... but I kinda wonder how much have they improved with Mirage Missile in term of damage... if it's still crap, then no one will really use it like usual. Grade D+
  
  Final Shot: No duration decrease via teleportation, doesn't cancel via knock-down, and cooldown is decreased slightly... it's a good change... but still quite useless for most of the situations. Grade C-
  
  Spider Shot: The cooldown is decreased from 35 seconds into 15 seconds and you can get the spider traps from general shop... a huge improvement... although I can see certain users in Mabination/Nexon forums start to QQ how OP the spider shot will be now like usual especially since you can use Shuriken for spider shot, comboing in Shadow Bind and Spider Shot. Grade B+
  
  Support Shot: The effect duration is increased and the effect is more visible... that's an improvement... my only complaint is that why does humans get more benefit in this than elves? Humans have AR and AR should be the only benefit that humans have in term of archery. Grade C-
  
  Throwing Attack: Why is this even being buffed? This only proves that DevCat love to kiss asses up to the giants like they have been for past few generations. Grade F
  
  Urgent Shot: I can see this being very useful... but like some users said... I hope this is not the only new archery skill. Grade A-
  
  ..........................................
  
  For overall... I rate the first phase of archery renovation D or D+ because it seem like elves still get crapped out again like usual, and they're giving humans and giants more unnecessary attentions once again when elves are the one that needed it the most. Also.. why the hell isn't archery skills in their own skill tab yet?
  
  Hopefully the next phase will be a huge improvement.